Original Sin

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fhansen: I never said I can not sin did I??? I said I seek a God that is able to teach us to not sin. HE has not shown me how yet or anyone for that matter, but he can send his son to a cross and rise for he does not really know how to teach us how to not sin…as per you…just save us by grace and I never said God created sinners, I say we are born with a sin nature of good and evil, from Adam and eve, but we serve a GOD that can be like Moses and part the seas so to speak and part the mind if you do not understand that metaphor.

See the only way grace can fit with my faith is to say God can make us and teach us to live without sin, but you all do not care to live without sin and God with love saved you from hell with grace…I preach but God has not shown me yet myself but he can hang on a cross and rise. Trying my best to not be demon…but all are sinners with sin saying their God can only die and rise and only by grace can we be holy as God.

and with your grace, can you look at God and say this day I know my heart will never ever EVER sin again and I will never have to go to confession again? Or just grace and you sin and say you are sorry unto Jesus and hail Mary and really Jesus does not know anything about righteousness or holiness??

My faith we can be without sin…just no one I myself have not. Sense I am a man that has come for a long time to be holy, can Jesus only hang on a cross and rise and have you all NEVER EVER ONCE ACCOMPLISH BEING HOLY AS GOD…but have to sin.

sad to see that Jesus only knows his cross because my faith is threatened looking at a weak little God that only knows how hang on a piece of wood and has sinner all around him making an excuse for his weakness it is human nature and original sin and he needs a purpose.

I love my faith, Jesus is not needed to suffer nor do I need his cross if Jesus knows how to actually make someone holy as him and righteous.
 
thegreatseeker said:
fhansen: I never said I can not sin did I??? I said I seek a God that is able to teach us to not sin. HE has not shown me how yet or anyone for that matter, but he can send his son to a cross and rise for he does not really know how to teach us how to not sin…as per you…just save us by grace and I never said God created sinners, I say we are born with a sin nature of good and evil, from Adam and eve, but we serve a GOD that can be like Moses and part the seas so to speak and part the mind if you do not understand that metaphor.

See the only way grace can fit with my faith is to say God can make us and teach us to live without sin, but you all do not care to live without sin and God with love saved you from hell with grace…I preach but God has not shown me yet myself but he can hang on a cross and rise. Trying my best to not be demon…but all are sinners with sin saying their God can only die and rise and only by grace can we be holy as God.

and with your grace, can you look at God and say this day I know my heart will never ever EVER sin again and I will never have to go to confession again? Or just grace and you sin and say you are sorry unto Jesus and hail Mary and really Jesus does not know anything about righteousness or holiness??

My faith we can be without sin…just no one I myself have not. Sense I am a man that has come for a long time to be holy, can Jesus only hang on a cross and rise and have you all NEVER EVER ONCE ACCOMPLISH BEING HOLY AS GOD…but have to sin.

sad to see that Jesus only knows his cross because my faith is threatened looking at a weak little God that only knows how hang on a piece of wood and has sinner all around him making an excuse for his weakness it is human nature and original sin and he needs a purpose.

I love my faith, Jesus is not needed to suffer nor do I need his cross if Jesus knows how to actually make someone holy as him and righteous.
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You sound a bit confused. Slow down a little-this isn’t a race-and Catholics aren’t your enemies, believe it or not. Anyway, Jesus wouldn’t bother dying on a cross if the purpose wasn’t, ultimately, the restoration of His creation to righteousness. He would be a weak little God-and kind of dumb-if He created a bunch of worthless worms who couldn’t do otherwise but sin, then gave them some laws that He knew they couldn’t obey, then blamed them for their disobedience anyway, then whimsically decided to save some but not others-and doing so by merely imputing righteousness to them-pretending them to be righteous.

Jesus came and died so we could see clearly a choice: between light and darkness, good and evil, love and selfishness, life and death, God or no God. With the Atonement God simultaneously convicts and forgives us of sin-and offers us the grace to be able to ‘go, and sin no more’. We just have to turn to Him, and accept the offer-and accept it daily, working out our salvation in cooperation with Him who works in us. In Catholicism we must ultimately be sinless to enter heaven, as scripture attests to as well.
 
and that is the purpose of the faith. There is no need for Jesus, and that is his gift of why he suffered for you. You all have no desire to be without sin and he had to come down and die and rise. Like you are all a bunch of children knowing you are all going straight to hell dancing and loving it only God is good and holy, and God with love saved you all from your blindness. As Jesus said he leads the blind home

Apostle paul said it best, I go to do good but I understand not. Paul never once in his faith ever asked the father in heaven like the rest of you to be without sin and to learn how be holy. He just strives on his own and falls short saying he is a wretched man. You slow down and listen, there is none holy as God and righteous??WHY??You hide in sin looking to give Jesus a purpose and I am sure you love giving him a purpose. You look to sin and say I needed Jesus to suffer for me, and I love the idea of a father giving his son and hanging him up on a cross, and save me from sin as you all walk around knowing God can do all things, but with all his wisdom hung his son on a cross and said he can rise, and if you just believe he can rise you will be saved from hell and his righteousness will be given to you.

Maybe one day I will find a Christian that actually loves Jesus instead of loving him dying for you and showing power he can rise. For Jesus is holy and none of you are, only what he gave to you by his grace.
 
thegreatseeker said:
and that is the purpose of the faith. There is no need for Jesus, and that is his gift of why he suffered for you. You all have no desire to be without sin and he had to come down and die and rise. Like you are all a bunch of children knowing you are all going straight to hell dancing and loving it only God is good and holy, and God with love saved you all from your blindness. As Jesus said he leads the blind home

Apostle paul said it best, I go to do good but I understand not. Paul never once in his faith ever asked the father in heaven like the rest of you to be without sin and to learn how be holy. He just strives on his own and falls short saying he is a wretched man. You slow down and listen, there is none holy as God and righteous??WHY??You hide in sin looking to give Jesus a purpose and I am sure you love giving him a purpose. You look to sin and say I needed Jesus to suffer for me, and I love the idea of a father giving his son and hanging him up on a cross, and save me from sin as you all walk around knowing God can do all things, but with all his wisdom hung his son on a cross and said he can rise, and if you just believe he can rise you will be saved from hell and his righteousness will be given to you.

Maybe one day I will find a Christian that actually loves Jesus instead of loving him dying for you and showing power he can rise. For Jesus is holy and none of you are, only what he gave to you by his grace.
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Maybe one day you could explain this in a way that’s understandable. But I think you could do it now by just listing your beliefs in order.
 
fhansen : I do not see what is difficult to understand???Does Jesus know the way the truth and the life, or only how to die for us and rise and say he will lead us home? If a person wants to be holy as God and without sin IN THIS LIFE? Why does a God who says he can do all things say IMPOSSIBLE…but he can glorify his son up with such a passion and desire? I do not believe in original sin or that we need grace to teach us to be holy FOR NONE OF YOU ARE HOLY ANYWAY. You still stumble from time to time in grace and go to confession and say hail Mary. Grace was sent because of your transgressions of not even caring to be holy and righteous and by the grace of god you are saved from hell and your LOVE OF SIN.

Very simple faith, is God able through his son Jesus Christ able to make us like him holy? or Is God able through his son Jesus Christ only able to die for us and just say we are holy and that works for a bunch of people who have no desire to be without sin…hey I am free Jesus died and rose and I love confession time and saying Hail Mary for it is impossible for God to teach us his ways which are holy and we must stumble from time to time saying hail Mary.
 
thegreatseeker said:
fhansen : I do not see what is difficult to understand???Does Jesus know the way the truth and the life, or only how to die for us and rise and say he will lead us home? If a person wants to be holy as God and without sin IN THIS LIFE? Why does a God who says he can do all things say IMPOSSIBLE…but he can glorify his son up with such a passion and desire? I do not believe in original sin or that we need grace to teach us to be holy FOR NONE OF YOU ARE HOLY ANYWAY. You still stumble from time to time in grace and go to confession and say hail Mary. Grace was sent because of your transgressions of not even caring to be holy and righteous and by the grace of god you are saved from hell and your LOVE OF SIN.

Very simple faith, is God able through his son Jesus Christ able to make us like him holy? or Is God able through his son Jesus Christ only able to die for us and just say we are holy and that works for a bunch of people who have no desire to be without sin…hey I am free Jesus died and rose and I love confession time and saying Hail Mary for it is impossible for God to teach us his ways which are holy and we must stumble from time to time saying hail Mary.
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I think I understand. Regardless of whether or not we believe in original sin- IOW, regardless of* how* we become sinners, in Catholicism God is able to make us holy-and this must happen, in fact. Some Protestant theologies teach that we *remain *sinners, and cannot do otherwise, that God only imputes righteousness to us or declares us righteous without our needing to actually become righteous. Is this one of the things you’re objecting to?
 
it is close and the reason I get kicked out of the protestants church. BUT no one has ever been holy as God and righteous. That is my point. I have come, and even if my faith is staggering because I look at you guys and I see no one and I am all alone seeking to be holy as God and righteous…there is none that have ever become holy as God and righteous. Maybe Elijah and Enoch… Mary is up for debate, but there is no mention of her being holy or taken into heaven. Just catholics saying she did not find the grave.AT least with Elijah God is pretty straight forward with it.

Have you ever found a Christian that says he is as holy as God because God changed him? Or is it always just striving???and we must fall short so Jesus can have a purpose??
 
thegreatseeker said:
it is close and the reason I get kicked out of the protestants church. BUT no one has ever been holy as God and righteous. That is my point. I have come, and even if my faith is staggering because I look at you guys and I see no one and I am all alone seeking to be holy as God and righteous…there is none that have ever become holy as God and righteous. Maybe Elijah and Enoch… Mary is up for debate, but there is no mention of her being holy or taken into heaven. Just catholics saying she did not find the grave.AT least with Elijah God is pretty straight forward with it.

Have you ever found a Christian that says he is as holy as God because God changed him? Or is it always just striving???and we must fall short so Jesus can have a purpose??
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It’s not either/or. We need both grace* and* our striving in order to be holy. As Augustine said: **“He who gave you free will won’t violate it to save you.” **Anyway, I’m not sure if the Catholic Church teaches that perfect holiness is achievable in this life-it would be very rare if so. But the writings of some of the saints such as Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross, due to their profound seeking of God and holiness, and due to the holiness they achieved, would be worth reading on this. Either way, in Catholicism you’ll find a huge range of seriousness towards seeking holiness- from lukewarm “cultural Catholics” who rarely give it a thought to those who devote their entire lives to the service of God and the pursuit of holiness.

God did not create man to be unholy, or* unrighteous. He didn’t create sinners. God’s own holiness or righteousness is His love.* And that, love, is what defines our holiness as well, to the point that Augustine could also say, **“Love, and do as you like”, **because to the extent that we love, sin is excluded, and this is why it’s said that “love fulfills the Law”. But the only way we can achieve this level of love is if we’re in communion with the Creator and lover of our souls-and this is what Jesus came to accomplish in us. As God and man were united in Christ so man and God are meant to be united in us.

And sacraments such as confession, as with all sacraments, also have this same ultimate purpose: union with God. Sin, especially sin of more serious nature, is to turn away from God, to fail to love, to* oppose* love. If this occurs we need a change of heart, turning back again, and the sacrament of Confession/Reconciliation provides a way to do this, to repent and embrace God and His love again. This, if done with sincerity, is part of the act of striving towards perfection/holiness, part of the struggle against sin.

Anyway, Catholicism teaches that salvation is a process; we must strive, as Paul tells us in Phil 3 that he was doing, to attain eternal life.

God “will give to each person according to what he has done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. Rom 2:6

**Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. **Heb 12:14
 
and my point is for some odd reason no one listens to me even with his grace you are not holy as God and righteous and just people saying you are. NAME one person that you know who walks in grace and the love of the Lord Jesus Christ said he came before Jesus to know how to be holy and righteous and Jesus with the power of his holy spirit took the man and made him perfect and holy and righteous in this world…or are you all just striving, looking to Jesus as a king that only knows his cross and you all just smile and say I know God you can die and rise and say I am righteous.

Try and answer my question, I KNOW YOU CAN NOT and are trying to find meaning for grace and in your weakness and sin Jesus makes you strong. BUT I want to be holy as God and righteous and sin no more, which NOT ONE SINGLE LIVING BEING HAS EVER ACCOMPLISHED. Unless you can name one under the grace of God that says he can look God in the face and say I am holy as you and righteous, for you really made me strong?

I see none just myself that will say this…but he has not done it yet and seems to hide in his cross.

See I do not believe in the whole striving thing with a God that calls himself a father beating the living life out of Jesus and watching Jesus beg on his knees to NOT HAVE THE CROSS. and PAUL with scripture just said HE DID not understand how to be good for he never even asked God to learn how to be. So he just continued striving and falling short.
 
thegreatseeker said:
and my point is for some odd reason no one listens to me even with his grace you are not holy as God and righteous and just people saying you are. NAME one person that you know who walks in grace and the love of the Lord Jesus Christ said he came before Jesus to know how to be holy and righteous and Jesus with the power of his holy spirit took the man and made him perfect and holy and righteous in this world…or are you all just striving, looking to Jesus as a king that only knows his cross and you all just smile and say I know God you can die and rise and say I am righteous.

Try and answer my question, I KNOW YOU CAN NOT and are trying to find meaning for grace and in your weakness and sin Jesus makes you strong. BUT I want to be holy as God and righteous and sin no more, which NOT ONE SINGLE LIVING BEING HAS EVER ACCOMPLISHED. Unless you can name one under the grace of God that says he can look God in the face and say I am holy as you and righteous, for you really made me strong?

I see none just myself that will say this…but he has not done it yet and seems to hide in his cross.

See I do not believe in the whole striving thing with a God that calls himself a father beating the living life out of Jesus and watching Jesus beg on his knees to NOT HAVE THE CROSS. and PAUL with scripture just said HE DID not understand how to be good for he never even asked God to learn how to be. So he just continued striving and falling short.
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What do you think is preventing you from being perfectly holy and righteous right now?
 
for one thing I know In my heart I could not call myself holy as him and righteous because I am not, and I believe I need his holy spirit to move in me and lead the way, like the Lords prayer says lead us not into temptation. When I am in the spirit and know the holy spirit then I will know God and be called holy away “always” from temptation and sin delivered from the evil one. I have not accomplished this task because I also am with a demon spirit which is a long story you can look up one of my posts. I do not want to talk about him on this form. BUT he is in the way, and I am trying to find a Church with the wisdom to get rid of him and who knows the spirit of Jesus. When I find that church, that will be the church I use. I kinda like catholic do to some reasons and some things I do not like. But in the end it is if they can face the demon or they will be just one of my stories.

When he is out the holy spirit should fall on me and I will become holy and fully Gods.
 
thegreatseeker said:
for one thing I know In my heart I could not call myself holy as him and righteous because I am not, and I believe I need his holy spirit to move in me and lead the way, like the Lords prayer says lead us not into temptation. When I am in the spirit and know the holy spirit then I will know God and be called holy away “always” from temptation and sin delivered from the evil one. I have not accomplished this task because I also am with a demon spirit which is a long story you can look up one of my posts. I do not want to talk about him on this form. BUT he is in the way, and I am trying to find a Church with the wisdom to get rid of him and who knows the spirit of Jesus. When I find that church, that will be the church I use. I kinda like catholic do to some reasons and some things I do not like. But in the end it is if they can face the demon or they will be just one of my stories.

When he is out the holy spirit should fall on me and I will become holy and fully Gods.
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The Catholic faith is all about our becoming authentically holy, just, righteous-that’s what God wants for us, in spite of false gospels out there that virtually make Christianity into an excuse to stay unrighteous. And similarly there are those who are fraudulent or just quite “under-equipped” to deal with spiritual conditions that might require exorcisms, etc. I would suggest speaking with a priest-what do you have to lose besides whatever it is that might be taking away your peace?
 
fair enough I want to be righteous and holy as God so the grace of Jesus is not needed, not a God saying only he is holy and righteous and good as it is written in scripture and all your righteousness are as filthy as rags unto him. So filthy that you had to be covered in the blood of his son, the blood of the lamb. Which he came and was begging on his hands and knees saying your will father, “not mine” be done. As the father in heaven drags his son with the use of the Romans and beats the living life out out him, then the father in heaven grabs his son and puts a cross on his back then tells him to walk to the hill. Then he takes the cross hangs him up and puts a crown of thorns on his head and shouts crucify him. To have a bunch of people dancing around only God is GOOD and HOLY, and dancing and singing how a God can nail his son up and display glory and power because he can rise and we are saved by the blood of the lamb. WHILE God is still the only one good and holy while you all just say you are by the blood, and that was Gods gift to you for he did not want you to perish. NOW that is being said, can YOU look at God without the grace of God and say you are good and holy? or even with the grace of God, can you stare at Gods holy face and say I am like you like-minded and all good? and I have no need at all for confession for the rest of the days of your life? You can babble about your catholic church and how you are suppose to be righteous, protestants say the same…NO ONE IS. Rom 3:10 and you are only righteous by the grace of God, still sinning just saying you are righteous. His gift. Can you honestly say you are good as God and that you do not have to go to confession anymore and you never will need to go for the REST of the days of your life?
 
thegreatseeker said:
fair enough I want to be righteous and holy as God so the grace of Jesus is not needed, not a God saying only he is holy and righteous and good as it is written in scripture and all your righteousness are as filthy as rags unto him. So filthy that you had to be covered in the blood of his son, the blood of the lamb. Which he came and was begging on his hands and knees saying your will father, “not mine” be done. As the father in heaven drags his son with the use of the Romans and beats the living life out out him, then the father in heaven grabs his son and puts a cross on his back then tells him to walk to the hill. Then he takes the cross hangs him up and puts a crown of thorns on his head and shouts crucify him. To have a bunch of people dancing around only God is GOOD and HOLY, and dancing and singing how a God can nail his son up and display glory and power because he can rise and we are saved by the blood of the lamb. WHILE God is still the only one good and holy while you all just say you are by the blood, and that was Gods gift to you for he did not want you to perish. NOW that is being said, can YOU look at God without the grace of God and say you are good and holy? or even with the grace of God, can you stare at Gods holy face and say I am like you like-minded and all good? and I have no need at all for confession for the rest of the days of your life? You can babble about your catholic church and how you are suppose to be righteous, protestants say the same…NO ONE IS. Rom 3:10 and you are only righteous by the grace of God, still sinning just saying you are righteous. His gift. Can you honestly say you are good as God and that you do not have to go to confession anymore and you never will need to go for the REST of the days of your life?
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Can’t predict the future. I only know nothing is impossible with God-including molding us into whatever He created us to be-i.e. righteous.
 
I very much agree and I am happy that you have that faith. BUT NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN. Just people saying they can be molded and all things are possible. NOT that I doubt in God, it is just my faith I will be, while I look at you all…
 
thegreatseeker said:
I very much agree and I am happy that you have that faith. BUT NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN. Just people saying they can be molded and all things are possible. NOT that I doubt in God, it is just my faith I will be, while I look at you all…
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But how do you know that no ones ever been? There may be multitudes and either way there are plenty of testimonies of those who’ve reversed course-from bad to good, from good to better, growing in a holiness that wouldn’t even be known of if not for Jesus Christ coming here. The Catholic teaching is that God made His creation in a “state of journeying” to perfection.
 
all the good ones that where properly HOLY AND GOOD. None found the grave. Elijah, Enoch and Jesus. Personal faith and theory’s and I am seeking the truth. You have a God that talks about a tree of life written in Gen 3:22 and he dangles it in the word of God before people as you are all finding the grave and slowly dying with a God that has a tree right there. You have 2 humans getting taken into heaven, of course Gods son, or God himself whatever way you look at it or both. Then you have a God making Jesus the tree of life for all you sinners to partake so you can live again.

My answer is you find the grave, that and WHO do you know???You ask how do I know, I ask WHO DO YOU KNOW? I am sure you will notice someone holy as God and righteous…I had dreams of people falling down around me with their heads covered and faces covered because they knew God was with me. Is an example I am sure someone would be like if they were holy as God and good for you would be sure to know GOD WALKS WITH HIM. AND all that say they are holy if there has ever being one that has said that and good get taken away to the mental ward or are self praising themselves. BUT you ask how do I know, I say WHO do you know that has said they are holy as God and righteous. I plan on having God walk with me. I have never met one…You??;)winks at ya…or I am a wanna be and a hard core prayer faith spirit to be anyway.
 
thegreatseeker said:
all the good ones that where properly HOLY AND GOOD. None found the grave. Elijah, Enoch and Jesus. Personal faith and theory’s and I am seeking the truth. You have a God that talks about a tree of life written in Gen 3:22 and he dangles it in the word of God before people as you are all finding the grave and slowly dying with a God that has a tree right there. You have 2 humans getting taken into heaven, of course Gods son, or God himself whatever way you look at it or both. Then you have a God making Jesus the tree of life for all you sinners to partake so you can live again.

My answer is you find the grave, that and WHO do you know???You ask how do I know, I ask WHO DO YOU KNOW? I am sure you will notice someone holy as God and righteous…I had dreams of people falling down around me with their heads covered and faces covered because they knew God was with me. Is an example I am sure someone would be like if they were holy as God and good for you would be sure to know GOD WALKS WITH HIM. AND all that say they are holy if there has ever being one that has said that and good get taken away to the mental ward or are self praising themselves. BUT you ask how do I know, I say WHO do you know that has said they are holy as God and righteous. I plan on having God walk with me. I have never met one…You??;)winks at ya…or I am a wanna be and a hard core prayer faith spirit to be anyway.
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Righteous people are also nothing if not humble- not the types that go around exalting themselves or their holiness before everyone. Like Jesus, they may easily be overlooked or dismissed or rejected-we don’t readily recognize or value the simple, pure-of-heart folk among us. In Jesus day many of the Pharisees, OTOH, liked to go around touting their “holiness”-we still have these types today-we’re all prone to it, in fact-the pride thing;.
 
I have become a little ignorant in my faith because I walk around sinners with no one as holy as God and this is 2013 just people striving and I am the first to ever be called holy as God and righteous as that will be what I am called to be. AND sense I have spent most of my time with protestants, I have grown to be attacked often for my DESIRE to be holy as God and righteous. Even Catholics on another form. For some reason it is evil to be holy as God and righteous and they call me the snake or greatly deceived by the devil…and having a devil does not help, so if people call me the snake, I turn to one. IF you were pointing that at me with that comment, as I defend myself. Most of the time people are deaf, and very few do I find like yourself that seems to be wise to me, so I find I can control the anger. Actually you are one in a few if not the only one that seems to have walked this far with me without me blowing my top. Most people can not absorb the wisdom and are just plain deaf. It is because you believe all things are possible.

humble or not, Jesus was Crucified. I do not really care what you folks think, it is between God and I. I just know in my heart you are all Rom 3:10 and 11 and do not seek the face of God to know Prov 9:10 to understand to depart from evil. I have never met a single person in my life ever claiming to be holy and righteous as God…other then myself and I claim I will be.
 
thegreatseeker said:
I have become a little ignorant in my faith because I walk around sinners with no one as holy as God and this is 2013 just people striving and I am the first to ever be called holy as God and righteous as that will be what I am called to be. AND sense I have spent most of my time with protestants, I have grown to be attacked often for my DESIRE to be holy as God and righteous. Even Catholics on another form. For some reason it is evil to be holy as God and righteous and they call me the snake or greatly deceived by the devil…and having a devil does not help, so if people call me the snake, I turn to one. IF you were pointing that at me with that comment, as I defend myself. Most of the time people are deaf, and very few do I find like yourself that seems to be wise to me, so I find I can control the anger. Actually you are one in a few if not the only one that seems to have walked this far with me without me blowing my top. Most people can not absorb the wisdom and are just plain deaf. It is because you believe all things are possible.

humble or not, Jesus was Crucified. I do not really care what you folks think, it is between God and I. I just know in my heart you are all Rom 3:10 and 11 and do not seek the face of God to know Prov 9:10 to understand to depart from evil. I have never met a single person in my life ever claiming to be holy and righteous as God…other then myself and I claim I will be.
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Well, good-I hope you make it. I hope we all do.
 
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