Original Sin

[thegreatseeker]

it is not really about making it to me, for Jesus saved me along time ago and I know I will be found in his glory for I know God really loves me even if my life has been a living torment for yrs, and in a way it is. It’s really is about letting Jesus know he did not have to suffer for me, or the father in heaven to know he did not have to send his son up to a cross and shout glory I am a God I can rise, and have people going WOW we serve a great God. And yes we do, and one that is all alone and I feel his suffering and misery and the cross is a killer on my heart. I have to know I did not need it. I have to know that if he did not come, I would still find heaven, I would be like Elijah or Enoch and God just loved and took. Even if it is shed it’s like a heavy burden. So this suffering drives me to make Jesus my king, not a servant on a cross carrying your burden for you and of course this evil spirit is very very unholy so that is also another reason I seek for the answers of holiness in prayer and faith and to be called holy and righteous as God. That is what drives me and I know God is driving me to seek for it also and have felt his strength over the yrs to keep seeking and searching for the understanding to say and for God to say I am holy and righteous as God.

 

[thegreatseeker]

unless of course you were saying I hope you make it to be holy as God and righteous and then THANKS. I hope you do to. I misread some times. I must admit you have been a pleasure to my heart because I am usually close to insane at this point with rage when I talk with people, I have never that I can remember made it that far talking with someone, people will leave, and then the form will be canceled as pure evil will be found and the rage is so insanely great.

 

[fhansen]

Thank you- I’ve enjoyed the talk as well. Keep seeking-I have no plan to stop either.

 

[simpleas]

consciouslifenews.com/catholic-cardinal-adam-eve-didnt-exist/#

I stumbled across this when i was searching for adam and eve being mentioned in the 24th vigil mass.
Does anyone know if they should be mentioned in that mass, or are they only mentioned in midnight mass?

 

[vames]

@ Simpleas

A&E are mentioned in the calendar of saints on Dec 24th, but there’s no specific reading or prayer (not even in the Breviary) about them or in their honor. From what I have read, it seems that any commemoration of A&E in the Latin Church is an Eastern import - even today, A&E are mentioned twice in the Orthodox calendar - before Lent (The Expulsion of Adam and Eve from Paradise) and before Christmas (The Sunday of the Holy Forefathers), when A&E don’t appear alone, but together with all the ancestors of Jesus mentioned in the Bible. Apparently, there are even icons of Adam and Eve in the Orthodox Church.

All this is consistent with the more archaic character of the Eastern Churches - we should remember, for example, that we honor only 3 archangels and don’t insist anymore on classifying “the nine choirs of angels”, while the Eastern Churches take all the biblical references seriously, honor 7 archangels named in the Bible and insists on praying to cherubims, seraphims, thrones etc. and on painting them on the churches’ walls.

What does that mean? I have noticed that many Catholics who want to rediscover various traditional prayers have resurrected a devotion towards “the nine choirs of angels”. I was raised Catholic, but until recently I had no idea that such devotions exist, or that in the Catholic Church once there was such an emphasis on praying to the Archangel Michael against demons (following Pope Leo XIII). Likewise, if you hear an Orthodox sermon or spiritual talk, you will be very insistently told that the devil has huge powers and is threatening us each moment - an emphasis that would strike us nowadays as quite strange and clearly archaic. So IMO this kind of emphasis on the historicity of A&E in the Catholic Church follows the same pattern of resurrecting old traditions and beliefs - again, I was never taught that we should believe the stories of Genesis literally.

As for Cardinal Pell, indeed, so far he’s the highest figure in the hierarchy to say this clearly:

GEORGE PELL: Well, Adam and Eve are terms - what do they mean: life and earth. It’s like every man. That’s a beautiful, sophisticated, mythological account. It’s not science but it’s there to tell us two or three things. First of all that God created the world and the universe. Secondly, that the key to the whole of universe, the really significant thing, are humans and, thirdly, it is a very sophisticated mythology to try to explain the evil and suffering in the world. (…) It’s certainly not a scientific truth and it’s a religious story told for religious purposes.

Of course, nobody asked him to retract his affirmations and to repent for heresy

 

[simpleas]

@ Simpleas

A&E are mentioned in the calendar of saints on Dec 24th, but there’s no specific reading or prayer (not even in the Breviary) about them or in their honor. From what I have read, it seems that any commemoration of A&E in the Latin Church is an Eastern import - even today, A&E are mentioned twice in the Orthodox calendar - before Lent (The Expulsion of Adam and Eve from Paradise) and before Christmas (The Sunday of the Holy Forefathers), when A&E don’t appear alone, but together with all the ancestors of Jesus mentioned in the Bible. Apparently, there are even icons of Adam and Eve in the Orthodox Church.

All this is consistent with the more archaic character of the Eastern Churches - we should remember, for example, that we honor only 3 archangels and don’t insist anymore on classifying “the nine choirs of angels”, while the Eastern Churches take all the biblical references seriously, honor 7 archangels named in the Bible and insists on praying to cherubims, seraphims, thrones etc. and on painting them on the churches’ walls.

What does that mean? I have noticed that many Catholics who want to rediscover various traditional prayers have resurrected a devotion towards “the nine choirs of angels”. I was raised Catholic, but until recently I had no idea that such devotions exist, or that in the Catholic Church once there was such an emphasis on praying to the Archangel Michael against demons (following Pope Leo XIII). Likewise, if you hear an Orthodox sermon or spiritual talk, you will be very insistently told that the devil has huge powers and is threatening us each moment - an emphasis that would strike us nowadays as quite strange and clearly archaic. So IMO this kind of emphasis on the historicity of A&E in the Catholic Church follows the same pattern of resurrecting old traditions and beliefs - again, I was never taught that we should believe the stories of Genesis literally.

As for Cardinal Pell, indeed, so far he’s the highest figure in the hierarchy to say this clearly:

Of course, nobody asked him to retract his affirmations and to repent for heresy

Thanks.
I thought as its their feast day they should be mentioned, the first two people created don’t seem all that important now…
I too heard about the prayer to the Archangel Michael that used to be recited at mass, I wondered why we don’t use it now.
Apart from Halloween and updates on abortion, I only hear then about satan/evil. Seems the church doesn’t think it as important to remind us of who and why we are sinners, just that we are and we need salvation. (not that i’m saying we don’t!)

Yeah and everyone can have their own interpretation of A&E now, as long as we believe in Christ whats the problem? sort of thing…

Happy new year! Oh and thanks for those links

 

[fhansen]

Thanks.
I thought as its their feast day they should be mentioned, the first two people created don’t seem all that important now…
I too heard about the prayer to the Archangel Michael that used to be recited at mass, I wondered why we don’t use it now.
Apart from Halloween and updates on abortion, I only hear then about satan/evil. Seems the church doesn’t think it as important to remind us of who and why we are sinners, just that we are and we need salvation. (not that i’m saying we don’t!)

Yeah and everyone can have their own interpretation of A&E now, as long as we believe in Christ whats the problem? sort of thing…

Happy new year! Oh and thanks for those links

Well, of course, the sin of man-and where it came from-is the reason for Christ’s coming. And the Church is quite clear on her teachings regarding A&E. In any case, what appeals to me about the doctrine of OS is that it points out so well-as no human explanation does-the foreignness of human pride and arrogance; the harmfulness, destruction, and divisiveness caused by setting oneself apart from and above God. Just my opinion.

Anyway, Happy New Year simpleas-may we we all come to understand the gospel better in the new year!

 

[vames]

Yeah and everyone can have their own interpretation of A&E now, as long as we believe in Christ whats the problem? sort of thing…

Happy new year! Oh and thanks for those links

I think so. If the Church officially proclaims today that what Cardinal Pell said is to be taught from now on, I can’t see how it would diminish the reality of sin, the necessity of salvation and the importance of Jesus’ redemptive work.

The prayer to the Archangel Michael was introduced at mass for particular historical reasons that don’t apply anymore (see here).

Happy New Year to you, friend and to all who participate in this thread!

 

[simpleas]

Well, of course, the sin of man-and where it came from-is the reason for Christ’s coming. And the Church is quite clear on her teachings regarding A&E. In any case, what appeals to me about the doctrine of OS is that it points out so well-as no human explanation does-the foreignness of human pride and arrogance; the harmfulness, destruction, and divisiveness caused by setting oneself apart from and above God. Just my opinion.

Anyway, Happy New Year simpleas-may we we all come to understand the gospel better in the new year!

And a Happy new Year to you too.

Yes agree that due to O.S sin that is why Jesus came. Yes the church is clear in the ccc about A&E, but it doesn’t give much on it.
My point was really about my experience of church/mass, I don’t hear much about A&E, (was told about it at primary school) then I never gave it much thought, most focus being on Jesus. But the prayer to the Archangel Michael seems very powerful, and if we are to believe that the devil is tempting us everyday why doesn’t the church use it? Maybe some priests do still include it.
Also the idea that even if A&E hadn’t sinned, there still would have been sin in the world and a need for jesus?

 

[simpleas]

I think so. If the Church officially proclaims today that what Cardinal Pell said is to be taught from now on, I can’t see how it would diminish the reality of sin, the necessity of salvation and the importance of Jesus’ redemptive work.

The prayer to the Archangel Michael was introduced at mass for particular historical reasons that don’t apply anymore (see here).

Happy New Year to you, friend and to all who participate in this thread!

Thanks Vames,
That’s answered my question about why the prayer isn’t at mass anymore!

 

[fhansen]

And a Happy new Year to you too.

Yes agree that due to O.S sin that is why Jesus came. Yes the church is clear in the ccc about A&E, but it doesn’t give much on it.
My point was really about my experience of church/mass, I don’t hear much about A&E, (was told about it at primary school) then I never gave it much thought, most focus being on Jesus. But the prayer to the Archangel Michael seems very powerful, and if we are to believe that the devil is tempting us everyday why doesn’t the church use it? Maybe some priests do still include it.
Also the idea that even if A&E hadn’t sinned, there still would have been sin in the world and a need for jesus?

Yes, perhaps we should hear more on A&E. But maybe it’s more of a hot topic for the few eccentrics that are really interested in asking deeper the questions-like those of us on this thread! Anyway, its a lot to chew on but I can’t help believe its worth the effort.

Jesus, being Lord of all, was with us from the beginning. I tend to believe He was represented as the Tree of Life, which A&E opted not to partake of. They hadn’t yet come to appreciate the value of, and know their need for, His incomparable goodness and love. As we come to learn of those things in this life, developing a hunger for God, we can begin to partake of the Tree of Life via the Eucharist, to be fully satiated in the next life. So we always needed Jesus-but its also always been our choice whether or not to opt for or against Him. I think there is no neutral ground at the end of the day: light and darkness are the two choices-and none of us should have any reason for arguing with the light.

 

[OneSheep]

Well, of course, the sin of man-and where it came from-is the reason for Christ’s coming. And the Church is quite clear on her teachings regarding A&E. In any case, what appeals to me about the doctrine of OS is that it points out so well-as no human explanation does-the foreignness of human pride and arrogance; the harmfulness, destruction, and divisiveness caused by setting oneself apart from and above God. Just my opinion.

The foreignness of human pride and arrogance: I’m hoping that someday you may revisit my post 588.

There are no aspects of pride and arrogance in humans that cannot be found in many “higher” animals. One difference, however, is that we humans commonly resent the drives and capacities that motivate sin, which, I repeat with apology, is part of the workings of our normal, healthy conscience.

Is our “pride” a demon within, or is it a gift from God? Please, look at post 588 and think it over. Is there something I missed?

 

[fhansen]

The foreignness of human pride and arrogance: I’m hoping that someday you may revisit my post 588.

Hi OneSheep. There are no aspects of pride and arrogance in humans that cannot be found in many “higher” animals. One difference, however, is that we humans commonly resent the drives and capacities that motivate sin, which, I repeat with apology, is part of the workings of our normal, healthy conscience.

Is our “pride” a demon within, or is it a gift from God? Please, look at post 588 and think it over. Is there something I missed?

Hi, OneSheep. Sometimes it seems as if maybe you’re conflating forgiveness with the idea that nothing’s sinful to begin with. No forgiveness is necessary if nothing’s sinful. But in any case, all sin is forgivable, except, maybe, for the sin of saying that* not* all sins are forgivable , which really is a problem in human affairs, people often preferring to maintain their righteous stance -“playing God”- rather than to forgive. And that is one way pride and arrogance entices us, and one way they interfere with justice/order/harmony in the world, or the restoration of those things, BTW. Another way they interfere is by causing us to not accept forgiveness, which requires admitting to some sin.

But to back up: appetites are good and natural, disordered appetites are not. Sexual appetites are good, rape is not. Self-love is good, pride is not. Authority is good, tyranny is not. All evil is an abuse of some good. Abuse is possible only because humans are in control of their morality to begin with; we have control over what/who will control us, so to speak. We have the ability to choose good or evil, animals do not have such control. We may or may not have full awareness of the “evilness” of an act, which means we may have more or less culpability for the act, but the act, itself, is out of sorts with the will of God-it’s “sin”, IOW, and He wants us to become aware of that so it may be addressed, so that we may be opened to and desirous of forgiveness and the healing it offers us. The “good thief” on the cross accepted the offer, the other thief scoffed at it.

 

[Richca]

Thanks.
I thought as its their feast day they should be mentioned, the first two people created don’t seem all that important now…
I too heard about the prayer to the Archangel Michael that used to be recited at mass, I wondered why we don’t use it now.
Apart from Halloween and updates on abortion, I only hear then about satan/evil. Seems the church doesn’t think it as important to remind us of who and why we are sinners, just that we are and we need salvation. (not that i’m saying we don’t!)

Yeah and everyone can have their own interpretation of A&E now, as long as we believe in Christ whats the problem? sort of thing…

Happy new year! Oh and thanks for those links

Hi Simpleas,
It is wrong to think that everyone can have their own interpretation of A&E or any part of Holy Scripture. For Peter says:
“Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God” (2 Peter 1: 20-21).

The idea that the first 3 chapters of Genesis which tells us about the creation of the universe by God, the beginnings of the human race in Adam and Eve, their placement in the Garden of Eden, their fall, their banishment from the Garden of Eden and their punishment is a myth is itself a myth. These are primordial truths which God in His goodness has taught us in Holy Scripture and which the Catholic Church has always understood them to be. The Catechism of the Catholic Church makes this clear. We must hold to God’s word in Holy Scripture and in Holy Tradition which the Catholic Church faithfully interprets for us for Jesus said that he would send the Holy Spirit upon the Church to guide it into all truth. Any other reading or interpretation of Holy Scripture is a figment of one’s imagination and contrary to what St Peter says above.

As far as the prayer to St Michael, our parish recites this prayer at the end of every Mass for the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour (1 Peter 5:8). Our parish is named after St Michael.

blessings, Richca

 

[fhansen]

The foreignness of human pride and arrogance: I’m hoping that someday you may revisit my post 588.

There are no aspects of pride and arrogance in humans that cannot be found in many “higher” animals. One difference, however, is that we humans commonly resent the drives and capacities that motivate sin, which, I repeat with apology, is part of the workings of our normal, healthy conscience.

Is our “pride” a demon within, or is it a gift from God? Please, look at post 588 and think it over. Is there something I missed?

OK, so I reread 588. And it seemed that the point in the example I gave was overlooked. Regardless of whether or not I reduce another human, who disagrees with me, to an object, there is, in us, a more basic need or desire to be right, a desire that is protective of the ego, that desires to win an argument without regard to the truth, for the sake of *appearing *right if nothing else,. This is the mentality that I was trying to explore by my example-and that seems so out of place with the rest of nature. It has to do with the way in which, or the reason why, we’re detached from our environment, our universe-and each other-to begin with.

 

[vames]

Regardless of whether or not I reduce another human, who disagrees with me, to an object, there is, in us, a more basic need or desire to be right, a desire that is protective of the ego, that desires to win an argument without regard to the truth, for the sake of *appearing *right if nothing else,. This is the mentality that I was trying to explore by my example-and that seems so out of place with the rest of nature. It has to do with the way in which, or the reason why, we’re detached from our environment, our universe-and each other-to begin with.

Doesn’t it have to do with the territorial instinct, present both in animals and man? Look at any combox of an article about a hot topic, in an average online environment (anonymous posters, no registration required, but no insults allowed). People insist to post and defend their points of view even if nobody knows who they are and there’s no real reputation to defend, nothing to risk, no real power to gain over the others. Even as anonymous posters, they feel the need to defend themselves and to use any argument to win the debate, even when their arguments don’t always correspond to what they really believe. This is territorial instinct, an otherwise useful tool for survival in any species.

The same sacrificing of the truth for the sake of being/appearing right occurs when people act like a group/pack - in a combox of a blog, when they tend to approve or excuse most of what the alpha male or female says (the owner of the blog) or to refrain from criticizing him/her, even when their beliefs are notoriously different. Sometimes, especially when the posters are very young, any intruder who dares to criticize the opinions of the majority is rejected and even bullied. And the rejected ones even say: oh, now the entire pack has united against me! Again, a natural and useful thing when we think about animal and human solidarity.

 

[fhansen]

Doesn’t it have to do with the territorial instinct, present both in animals and man? Look at any combox of an article about a hot topic, in an average online environment (anonymous posters, no registration required, but no insults allowed). People insist to post and defend their points of view even if nobody knows who they are and there’s no real reputation to defend, nothing to risk, no real power to gain over the others. Even as anonymous posters, they feel the need to defend themselves and to use any argument to win the debate, even when their arguments don’t always correspond to what they really believe. This is territorial instinct, an otherwise useful tool for survival in any species.

The same sacrificing of the truth for the sake of being/appearing right occurs when people act like a group/pack - in a combox of a blog, when they tend to approve or excuse most of what the alpha male or female says (the owner of the blog) or to refrain from criticizing him/her, even when their beliefs are notoriously different. Sometimes, especially when the posters are very young, any intruder who dares to criticize the opinions of the majority is rejected and even bullied. And the rejected ones even say: oh, now the entire pack has united against me! Again, a natural and useful thing when we think about animal and human solidarity.

But it may not even operate in a pack mentality-just in defending oneself. Why/how does one’s opinion matter in such a situation? This desire may well raise itself up against the herd, in fact, setting oneself apart, threatening ones security in society-all for an opinion-something not even replicable in animals. Why are we so sensitive, so easily wounded emotionally if “face” is lost, etc, if shown to be-or even appearing to be-wrong on some, perhaps irrelevant, topic?

 

[vames]

But it may not even operate in a pack mentality-just in defending oneself. Why/how does one’s opinion matter in such a situation? This desire may well raise itself up against the herd, in fact, setting oneself apart, threatening ones security in society-all for an opinion-something not even replicable in animals. Why are we so sensitive, so easily wounded emotionally if “face” is lost, etc, if shown to be-or even appearing to be-wrong on some, perhaps irrelevant, topic?

My opinion is that this has to do with the almost comical force of this territorial instinct. I chose both examples from the online environment precisely because people don’t know each other and anything is gratuitous, with no practical gains or losses. Here on CAF, there are people who say: “I know I’m on your turf here, but…” (= I can try to conquer territory by fighting alone) or “Most of us have told you X, so why don’t you cease to claim Y?” (= this is our territory, be like us or get out). In animals, positioning oneself against a group would be absurd, because being rejected and left alone = future death and fighting alone = quick death. So they have to find a pack that accepts them and, when needed, fights together with them against a rival pack. Of course, not all species need a pack: a male cat just fights with another male cat for territory. But for humans, the risk of losing their life is zero in a safe environment, so they continue to fight for their virtual territory, as if their survival depends upon it, even if they are alone and without allies.

When there is a risk of losing their life, people still fight for their virtual territory, because a cause that they deem worthy of such a sacrifice is always conceived as a shared cause. Any man that gives his life to defend his opinion is convinced or at least hopes that he is not alone and that his opinion is or will be someday shared by many others: they will eventually expand their territory, so his death isn’t useless. Animals can sacrifice themselves for their offspring or at least risk their lives, too, when the territory of their group is violated or threatened (“biological altruism”).

 

[simpleas]

Yes, perhaps we should hear more on A&E. But maybe it’s more of a hot topic for the few eccentrics that are really interested in asking deeper the questions-like those of us on this thread! Anyway, its a lot to chew on but I can’t help believe its worth the effort.

Jesus, being Lord of all, was with us from the beginning. I tend to believe He was represented as the Tree of Life, which A&E opted not to partake of. They hadn’t yet come to appreciate the value of, and know their need for, His incomparable goodness and love. As we come to learn of those things in this life, developing a hunger for God, we can begin to partake of the Tree of Life via the Eucharist, to be fully satiated in the next life. So we always needed Jesus-but its also always been our choice whether or not to opt for or against Him. I think there is no neutral ground at the end of the day: light and darkness are the two choices-and none of us should have any reason for arguing with the light.

Thanks Fhansen,
There is so much to learn and understand!

A&E ate from the tree of life, if they didn’t they would die, i’m not really sure if they understood why they needed it, because they made the wrong choice? It would only have been when they ate from the forbidden tree of knowledge that they experienced Good from Bad, which included death now, because God would no longer allow them to eat from the tree of life in a state of sin.

There is a balance in life…or so i’ve heard…light and darkness. The church even says God allows evil to bring about a greater good…
But I’ll take the path to the light any day.

 

[simpleas]

Hi Simpleas,
It is wrong to think that everyone can have their own interpretation of A&E or any part of Holy Scripture. For Peter says:
“Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God” (2 Peter 1: 20-21).

The idea that the first 3 chapters of Genesis which tells us about the creation of the universe by God, the beginnings of the human race in Adam and Eve, their placement in the Garden of Eden, their fall, their banishment from the Garden of Eden and their punishment is a myth is itself a myth. These are primordial truths which God in His goodness has taught us in Holy Scripture and which the Catholic Church has always understood them to be. The Catechism of the Catholic Church makes this clear. We must hold to God’s word in Holy Scripture and in Holy Tradition which the Catholic Church faithfully interprets for us for Jesus said that he would send the Holy Spirit upon the Church to guide it into all truth. Any other reading or interpretation of Holy Scripture is a figment of one’s imagination and contrary to what St Peter says above.

As far as the prayer to St Michael, our parish recites this prayer at the end of every Mass for the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour (1 Peter 5:8). Our parish is named after St Michael.
blessings, Richca

Thanks Richca,

This is what I’m thinking about. Although Vames sent the link that explains why the prayer to St Michael came about and why we don’t use it now (well no parish in my area does anyway) I still think if we are to believe/understand the devil’s intentions from the beginning that this prayer would be a very good reminder.
In my experience, we are only being taught about the love of God and forgiveness, which is what is needed, but where has the teachings of 1 Peter 5:8 gone? Are we now in a period that because we are beginning to realise we are happier if we can forgive each other and feel the love of God, that the devil hasn’t any legs to stand on, so we don’t need that reminder?