Original Sin

[simpleas]

Let’s ask the question: If a person decides to abort a child when the government says that they have to, why do they do so? They do not do so in order to side with satan, unless they believe that their own government is evil, and evil is to be followed. No, they submit to authority because they believe that the authority is right for all the reasons the law is there in the first place. The other option is that they do indeed see their government as evil and abort because of fear of their government. So, you can see that in either case there is no bad intent. In both cases, they are not siding with what they see as “evil”.

This would take a very long answer. Let’s put it this way: I agree with St. Augustine who said that whatsoever exists in any way is good.

So, you are seeing defiance as an imperfection? The capacity to defy is in itself a gift. Were Adam and Eve “defiant from the start”? We have no evidence of that. We can certainly say that they were created with the capacity to defy, I see no reason to believe that they wanted to defy God from the beginning, though.

So, God creates man with the capacity to defy, and knows that man will defy him. Afterwards, God banishes man from Eden for doing exactly what He knew man was going to do. In this case, God wants us to collectively feel guilty for being human.

Here is the other option: The creation story is an attempt to explain the difference between humans and other animals. First of all, humans have a conscience. How? It has happened because we have eaten from the tree of knowledge. Now God says “man has become like one of us”. Never mind the polytheistic implication, but now we have the ability to judge good and evil. Inherent with the capacity to judge good vs evil is that man has the capacity to condemn himself and condemn others, which leads to guilt and a multitude of other problems that other species do not ordinarily experience. Is having a conscience worth it? Absolutely, it is our capacity to judge and desire to punish wrongdoing that has helped moderate our behaviors. Did we get “tricked” into getting a conscience? Does that make sense? No, the story simply reflects that in getting a conscience, we have other problems to deal with, and we can understandably resent our own conscience. We judge our capacity to judge.
It is a fascinating story, really. There is so much packed into it.

Many ancient cultures had superstitions about angry gods. Here in America, people were sacrificed to appease angry gods. When things go wrong for us, it is very easy to conclude that God is angry with us. We are always seeking cause and effect.

It sounds like you are sorting it out. Prayer helps a lot. If we follow Jesus’ commandments, to love God and love our neighbor as ourselves, all of the law falls into place.

Right so you say we gained a conscience from Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge, as God says man has become like us knowing good and evil.
So obviously we know God is an all knowing God, but then did,
1.Good and evil already exist?
2. Adam and Eve by giving in to temption create a conscience that would know Good from evil?
3. why would satan want the human to know Good/evil and God it seems did not?
4. why did they feel shame in seeing each other naked, why would being naked be a negitive thing pretty much straight away?

These questions do sound alittle bizarre i’ll admit, but they popped into my head when I read your comment which i’ve highlighted.

 

[grannymh]

Right so you say we gained a conscience from Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge, as God says man has become like us knowing good and evil.
So obviously we know God is an all knowing God, but then did,
1.Good and evil already exist?
2. Adam and Eve by giving in to temption create a conscience that would know Good from evil?
3. why would satan want the human to know Good/evil and God it seems did not?
4. why did they feel shame in seeing each other naked, why would being naked be a negitive thing pretty much straight away?

These questions do sound alittle bizarre i’ll admit, but they popped into my head when I read your comment which i’ve highlighted.

Answer to question 1. Yes, because of the possibility. Genesis 2: 15-17

Answer to question 2. No. Genesis 1: 1; Genesis 1: 26; CCC 366

Answer to question 3. Satan basically wanted Adam to dissolve his relationship with his Creator in imitation of what Satan himself did. Genesis 3: 4-5; CCC 391-395

Answer to question 4. For the first two original persons, it contrasts the difference between being in the original *warm *friendship with God and being in the cold, outside the original relationship. Genesis 3: 10

 

[OneSheep]

So do you believe that salvation is universal-no reason, on man’s part, to change or cooperate in his being changed?

Have you seen miracles? I know at least eight people well who have gone through the 12-step program and have successfully repented from their habits. Is this not salvation? Every day, children are being fed by acts of mercy, unwed mothers choose to have the child instead of aborting, and hundreds of thousands of people are cured of illnesses.

Every day, more people find that gay people are not evil, that Muslims are people just like us, and there is a way out of generations of welfare slavery. Last week, our nation may have chosen a path away from war, and it looks like we may begin a path of reconciliation with Iran.

Every day, people are choosing not to commit adultery, take revenge, and steal something. People are choosing to let someone else make money (vs hoarding), let go of wanting that next-best material thing, and give money to the help the poor, the environment, and other wonderful causes.

Every day, millions of people choose to forgive rather than be slaves to grudges.

Are these not salvation? Yes, they are, and without people choosing to love, to make it happen, it won’t happen. So yes, man has to participate. We are the hands of God! “Thy Kingdom Come” is a call to make it happen!

Does this salvation seem too ordinary in comparison to life after death? Some people, myself included, are so desensitized to everyday miracles. And though there are many acts of salvation, we have a long way to go. Last Sundays gospel was the story of the prodigal son. Did you notice what the father said? “My son was dead, and is alive again.” How was the son dead? He was a slave to his appetites. He was a walking machine. Repentance is a return to autonomy, a return to life, in a very real way.

Does the God of Unconditional Love, who from the cross forgave an unrepentant crowd, told us to forgive each other an infinite number of times, accepted and spent time with the “worst” people have the door to the afterlife open to everyone? Well, why not?

End of sermon.

 

[grannymh]

We are all conceived/born in the state of Original Sin; the sin of Adam.

Why are we held accountable for something someone did 1000s of years ago?

If I may, I would like to shift the answer to the time of Jesus on earth.

At the time of Jesus, was any one person the one, sole first original human on earth? Of course not.

In our time, is there any one person alive who is the* one*,* sole first original human on earth?* Of course not.

The only person accountable for the Original Sin is Adam, the one, sole first original human on earth. Neither the individuals who lived at the time of Jesus nor ourselves are the real Adam in Genesis.

It is correct that we are all conceived/born in the* contracted* state of Original Sin. This contracted state is a state of deprivation of God’s original presence/relationship with the founder of humanity. CCC 404-405. Therefore, it is important to recognize that Adam was originally established in the grace of friendship with God. Each one of us, because of our first parent Adam’s creation in the image of God, is called to share in God’s life, here and in heaven. CCC 355-356. To maintain this spiritual relationship, Adam, the creature, had to live in free submission to His Creator. Once Adam deliberately chose his own personal desire against the requirements of his creaturely status, his disobedience separated him and his progeny from the relationship with God. CCC 390; CCC 396-398.

To understand Adam’s Original Sin and the reality of sin itself, we need to understand the profound relationship of a human with God. CCC 355-357; CCC 386-387; CCC 396.

Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s salvific grace, erases the contracted state of Original Sin and restores God’s holiness, Sanctifying Grace, within the individual. Yet, the consequences for human nature, itself, remain. CCC 405.

It is necessary to recognize that this contracted state is the result of Adam’s disobedience. Because Adam is the founder or first parent of humankind, his state of deprivation was transmitted by propagation to his human descendants, i.e., humankind. CCC 404-405.

One of the results of Adam’s choice to dissolve humanity’s relationship with the Creator is that his and Eve’s human nature was immediately affected. CCC 399-400. The natural consequence of Adam’s action is that his human nature along with that of his spouse was wounded. CCC 405. Wounded in the sense that the harmony within Adam was lost when the harmony between Adam and God was shattered. This weakness in human nature is often referred to as concupiscence. CCC 377; CCC 400; CCC 407-409; CCC 418; and CCC 2514.

Yet, after Adam’s sin, he and his descendants were not abandoned by God. CCC 405; CCC 410-411; CCC 421.

We, not being the original human on earth, cannot re-commit that Original Sin nor are we accountable for it. It is Adam and Eve’s weakened nature (subject to death) which is transmitted parent to child through the centuries. CCC 404; CCC 416-419.

We cannot tamper with the Revelation of Original Sin without undermining the mystery of Christ. CCC 389. Baptism imparts the grace of Jesus Christ, True God and True Man, which erases the contracted state of Original Sin and returns us to God’s friendship in Sanctifying Grace. CCC Glossary, Sanctifying Grace; CCC 405; CCC 1966; CCC 1997-2000.

Link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[fhansen]

Have you seen miracles? I know at least eight people well who have gone through the 12-step program and have successfully repented from their habits. Is this not salvation? Every day, children are being fed by acts of mercy, unwed mothers choose to have the child instead of aborting, and hundreds of thousands of people are cured of illnesses.

Every day, more people find that gay people are not evil, that Muslims are people just like us, and there is a way out of generations of welfare slavery. Last week, our nation may have chosen a path away from war, and it looks like we may begin a path of reconciliation with Iran.

Every day, people are choosing not to commit adultery, take revenge, and steal something. People are choosing to let someone else make money (vs hoarding), let go of wanting that next-best material thing, and give money to the help the poor, the environment, and other wonderful causes.

Every day, millions of people choose to forgive rather than be slaves to grudges.

Are these not salvation? Yes, they are, and without people choosing to love, to make it happen, it won’t happen. So yes, man has to participate. We are the hands of God! “Thy Kingdom Come” is a call to make it happen!

Does this salvation seem too ordinary in comparison to life after death? Some people, myself included, are so desensitized to everyday miracles. And though there are many acts of salvation, we have a long way to go. Last Sundays gospel was the story of the prodigal son. Did you notice what the father said? “My son was dead, and is alive again.” How was the son dead? He was a slave to his appetites. He was a walking machine. Repentance is a return to autonomy, a return to life, in a very real way.

Does the God of Unconditional Love, who from the cross forgave an unrepentant crowd, told us to forgive each other an infinite number of times, accepted and spent time with the “worst” people have the door to the afterlife open to everyone? Well, why not?

End of sermon.

Well, the sermon didn’t quite address the question tho. Of course the door is open to everyone. But will all enter it?

 

[OneSheep]

Well, the sermon didn’t quite address the question tho. Of course the door is open to everyone. But will all enter it?

I can only think of two reasons why people will not enter the door:

1. Ignorance
2. Blindness

Take, for example, that a person who has suffered with alcoholism all of their life. I find it hard to imagine that when after death his eyes are opened and he is freed from the physical burden of addiction he will not choose to enter. This is all speculative, but it is in our nature to want the best for ourselves, and that “best” always involves some experience of the divine.

In a way, people are always choosing to enter the door.

Even a person who murders does so in order to gain some type of security or punish what he sees as “wrong”. Of course such decisions involve blindness and ignorance, but the choice to do some type of “good” is always there (even if it is not altruisitic). This was St. Augustine’s observation too.

 

[OneSheep]

First of all, if Grannymh’s explanations work for you, then great! If you are like me and find yourself needing to work through contradictions, then try on “for size” some of the things I have gleaned.

Right so you say we gained a conscience from Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge, as God says man has become like us knowing good and evil.

Actually, I said that to replicate the figurative story. I do not take the creation story literally. God gave us a conscience. How did God give us a conscience? I think God gave us a conscience through evolution, the way that we have gained all the rest of the traits we have. Having a conscience gave us the survival benefit of being able to live in community with advanced minds. For example, there are other species, such as many apes and even birds, that “lie” to each other, but such lying appears not to have diminished their survival. In the case of human evolution, though, we had to form a conscience in order to counteract such lying behavior. Having a conscience is hard-wired, the content of the conscience is not; environment plays a huge role in that. This gets into the nature vs nurture stuff. There is a large scope of scientific opinion.

So obviously we know God is an all knowing God, but then did,
1.Good and evil already exist?

This is one of those questions that begs the question. (I forget the name of the fallacy)

St Augustine said, “All things, taken one by one, are good, and all things, taken together, are very good. For our God has made all things very good.” He also said, “Through the spirit we see that whatsoever exists in any way is good.”

Without a doubt, evil occurs. Does evil occur when we are completely aware, and we are not blind? No, not unless you are talking about earthquakes, illness, and such. Natural evils.

1. Adam and Eve by giving in to temption create a conscience that would know Good from evil?
2. why would satan want the human to know Good/evil and God it seems did not?

I find no contradiction with the standard CCC answers on this, so you can refer to Grannymh’s post. Our conscience is a gift from God. God wants us to know which are good behaviors and which are not. Even some apes arguably have rudimentary consciences.

1. why did they feel shame in seeing each other naked, why would being naked be a negitive thing pretty much straight away?

Again, you are trying to take the creation story literally. To me, the “shame for being naked” is a metaphor for the rulebooks that we all form in our minds. This rulebook-formation is a very important aspect of our conscience. In the story, God sees that we have formed a conscience.

You can see, also, that environment and culture play a huge role in conscience formation. Plenty of aboriginal cultures found nudity a non-issue.

 

[grannymh]

I am amazed at the discovery that actual Catholic teachings on Original Sin open one more door to understanding our own spirituality.
“To understand Adam’s Original Sin and the reality of sin itself, we need to understand the profound relationship of a human with God. CCC 355-357;
CCC 386-387; CCC 396.” post 102
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11227012&postcount=102

Part of this discovery is the realization that Adam appeared in history as a completed person. He was a fully-complete human being from square one because his nature was a marvelous unification of rational spiritual soul and decomposing anatomy. Having a rational spiritual soul, Adam, the creature, could discern right from wrong when it came to his profound relationship with his Creator. As a loving Creator, God did give Adam a crash course in the requirements of a creature. Adam could only maintain his creature relationship by living in free submission to his Creator. Genesis 2: 15-17; Genesis 3: 9-11; and common sense. The appropriate CCC paragraph is 396 which adds this key sentence at the end of the paragraph. " Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom."
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/396.htm

CCC 311 describes the natural condition of all people including the first human Adam before the Original Sin. It begins with “Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love.”
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/311.htm

Information about the smaller print is in these two links.
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/20.htm
scborromeo.org/ccc/para/21.htm

Also, please go back to fhansen’s posts 77 & 40 for some excellent comments on our journey and our nature.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11216472&postcount=77
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11200624&postcount=40

Most likely, after the Fall, Adam would need to learn how to survive in a material world. However, Adam was not restricted to what he could observe in the environment, in animals, etc. Adam arrived at the beginning of human history with the necessary spiritual equipment (inherent in his nature) needed to know God, love God, and serve God through his obedience to his Creator in this world so as to have joy eternal in the presence of the Beatific Vision.

I cannot speak for others, but sometimes it seems that I take my soul for granted. Thinking about Adam, whose spiritual soul, like ours, was immediately created fully complete by God, reminds me that we need to pay attention to our spiritual soul’s equipment such as intellect and will, which contribute to our spirituality. How often do we let our intellect explore the depths of standing at the foot of Jesus’ Cross? Does our will follow with the choice to participate in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass more often? Or to start the Rosary during halftime? Do we need to clear some dust off our conscience?

 

[simpleas]

Answer to question 1. Yes, because of the possibility. Genesis 2: 15-17

Answer to question 2. No. Genesis 1: 1; Genesis 1: 26; CCC 366
Answer to question 3. Satan basically wanted Adam to dissolve his relationship with his Creator in imitation of what Satan himself did. Genesis 3: 4-5; CCC 391-395

Answer to question 4. For the first two original persons, it contrasts the difference between being in the original warm friendship with God and being in the cold, outside the original relationship. Genesis 3: 10

So in ccc 366 - God gave the first two humans a soul straight away, as we also receive, So our soul is our conscience?

Not sure I understand Gen 1:26, in that God made man in his image, but man didn’t have God’s intellect - And we still don’t!!!

 

[simpleas]

First of all, if Grannymh’s explanations work for you, then great! If you are like me and find yourself needing to work through contradictions, then try on “for size” some of the things I have gleaned.

Actually, I said that to replicate the figurative story. I do not take the creation story literally. God gave us a conscience. How did God give us a conscience? I think God gave us a conscience through evolution, the way that we have gained all the rest of the traits we have. Having a conscience gave us the survival benefit of being able to live in community with advanced minds. For example, there are other species, such as many apes and even birds, that “lie” to each other, but such lying appears not to have diminished their survival. In the case of human evolution, though, we had to form a conscience in order to counteract such lying behavior. Having a conscience is hard-wired, the content of the conscience is not; environment plays a huge role in that. This gets into the nature vs nurture stuff. There is a large scope of scientific opinion.

This is one of those questions that begs the question. (I forget the name of the fallacy)

St Augustine said, “All things, taken one by one, are good, and all things, taken together, are very good. For our God has made all things very good.” He also said, “Through the spirit we see that whatsoever exists in any way is good.”

Without a doubt, evil occurs. Does evil occur when we are completely aware, and we are not blind? No, not unless you are talking about earthquakes, illness, and such. Natural evils.

I find no contradiction with the standard CCC answers on this, so you can refer to Grannymh’s post. Our conscience is a gift from God. God wants us to know which are good behaviors and which are not. Even some apes arguably have rudimentary consciences.

Again, you are trying to take the creation story literally. To me, the “shame for being naked” is a metaphor for the rulebooks that we all form in our minds. This rulebook-formation is a very important aspect of our conscience. In the story, God sees that we have formed a conscience.

You can see, also, that environment and culture play a huge role in conscience formation. Plenty of aboriginal cultures found nudity a non-issue.

I’m not taking the creation story literally…really…well ok i’m learning not too.

But it worries me some, which parts we take literally and which we don’t. Like the teaching of matt 18 8:9. We don’t take that literally either.

I think evil does occur even when some people are aware of what they are doing, they maybe blind to their cause, but they can see what evil is doing to other people (war etc), yet continue to do so, why? Has their conscience not developed enough for them to feel empathy for other human beings?

Is our conscience our soul? We hear the expression that someone has a “Good soul” or “Bad soul”

To answer your first question, I’m grateful to receive Grannymh’s, Yours, and other posters explainations, its great to be able to ask questions and receive answers whether facts or opinions

Must read the CCC more also! (me i mean)

 

[grannymh]

In reply to a previous question.

Adam and his descendants are created in the image of God in order to become partakers of the
divine nature. ( 2 Peter 1: 3-4) This is the foundation for our spirituality.

 

[OneSheep]

But it worries me some, which parts we take literally and which we don’t. Like the teaching of matt 18 8:9. We don’t take that literally either.

Yes, we have to look at the context of the scripture, as Grannymh says, and we have to look at the point of what is being said. In Matthew 18:8-9, the point is the importance of repentance.

I think evil does occur even when some people are aware of what they are doing, they maybe blind to their cause, but they can see what evil is doing to other people (war etc), yet continue to do so, why? Has their conscience not developed enough for them to feel empathy for other human beings?

Empathy-blocking is a mechanism that is part of our nature. When you say “they can see what evil is doing to other people” this is what I am saying does not happen. “People” is in the eye of the beholder. American fighters in Korea did not fight people, they fought “gooks”. American fighters in Iraq did not fight people, they fought "ragheads. Do you see all the hate mail that goes around, dehumanizing Muslim people?

Muslims are in the ordinary American’s “outgroup”. Children form “ingroups” and “outgroups” from a very young age, before speech even. We are blind to the humanity of the enemy. This is why Jesus emphasized so much forgiving of our enemies. This is why he used the Samaritan as the example of “goodness”, it was because Samaritans were loathsome to the Jews, they were in the outgroup. This was why Jesus spent time with “sinners” and tax collectors, who were also despised. Hatred and condemnation blind us.

So, yes, empathy naturally develops, except in the rare cases of sociopathies where the individual has a developmental disorder of the mind. However, alll of us have had our empathy blocked. Did you find Osama Bin Laden unhuman, worthy of destruction? I did. So I knew it was time to forgive.

Can you think of a time in your life where you did something bad to someone, and you were fully aware of the person’s value at the time of the incident? When we hurt someone, we are not thinking of the value of the person, we are protecting something or thinking the victim “deserved” it. This is blindness.

Is our conscience our soul? We hear the expression that someone has a “Good soul” or “Bad soul”

What a great question! Again, going by St. Augustine, there is no such thing as a “Bad soul”, because whatever exists is good.

Is our conscience our soul? Another great question, which we should seek the CCC to answer. (I tried, but was not successful). What makes sense to me is that our conscience is part of our nature, and that our soul is the autonomous part of who we are. Our soul, I think, is our autonomy, our “I am”. It is very mysterious, and I’m not sure that the answer matters a whole lot.

God made us, He said what He made was good, and we are made with a conscience, as well as many other evolved drives and capacities.

 

[simpleas]

Yes, we have to look at the context of the scripture, as Grannymh says, and we have to look at the point of what is being said. In Matthew 18:8-9, the point is the importance of repentance.

Empathy-blocking is a mechanism that is part of our nature. When you say “they can see what evil is doing to other people” this is what I am saying does not happen. “People” is in the eye of the beholder. American fighters in Korea did not fight people, they fought “gooks”. American fighters in Iraq did not fight people, they fought "ragheads. Do you see all the hate mail that goes around, dehumanizing Muslim people?

Muslims are in the ordinary American’s “outgroup”. Children form “ingroups” and “outgroups” from a very young age, before speech even. We are blind to the humanity of the enemy. This is why Jesus emphasized so much forgiving of our enemies. This is why he used the Samaritan as the example of “goodness”, it was because Samaritans were loathsome to the Jews, they were in the outgroup. This was why Jesus spent time with “sinners” and tax collectors, who were also despised. Hatred and condemnation blind us.

So, yes, empathy naturally develops, except in the rare cases of sociopathies where the individual has a developmental disorder of the mind. However, alll of us have had our empathy blocked. Did you find Osama Bin Laden unhuman, worthy of destruction? I did. So I knew it was time to forgive.

Can you think of a time in your life where you did something bad to someone, and you were fully aware of the person’s value at the time of the incident? When we hurt someone, we are not thinking of the value of the person, we are protecting something or thinking the victim “deserved” it. This is blindness.

What a great question! Again, going by St. Augustine, there is no such thing as a “Bad soul”, because whatever exists is good.

Is our conscience our soul? Another great question, which we should seek the CCC to answer. (I tried, but was not successful). What makes sense to me is that our conscience is part of our nature, and that our soul is the autonomous part of who we are. Our soul, I think, is our autonomy, our “I am”. It is very mysterious, and I’m not sure that the answer matters a whole lot.

God made us, He said what He made was good, and we are made with a conscience, as well as many other evolved drives and capacities.

I have no information on what our armed forces teach when sending people to wars, but I would think they somehow condition soldiers minds into believing they aren’t actually fighting a fellow human, so that they can do the “job” . Same for the other side.
We are all as bad as each other, and I have no idea how we can ever live side by side because there is to much corruption in our world now.
We as the “civilized” part of the world, can not just turn the other cheek and allow terrorism, we must defend ourselves and other innocent people, but at what price? Never ending wars…

Sorry rambling on again…

Yes I most probably have done or said something to someone in the past where I was aware of consequence of hurting them but still went ahead. I only know that when I would have a arguement with a friend (when I was alot younger, now i have grown I don’t allow things to get out of hand as easily to cause a fall out) I wouldn’t be able to relax until I had cleared the air, and trust me I was the one who always made to first step, and still am.
So ok, you say they are blind, I say they can be blind to begin with, but when you see the harm an act does to others over and over, why do some people change their way of thinking but others can not.

Did you forgive Bin Laden before or after his death?
I personally wished him to be captured and to held responsible for his crimes.

Yeah the thing with mystery is we can’t fully understand it, but we sure can explore it!

What a great question! Again, going by St. Augustine, there is no such thing as a “Bad soul”, because whatever exists is good.

So all things are good, we were made good, the earth, animals etc are good. What we do then is pretty much good, if we don’t hurt someone else by word/deed apart from taking someones life or intervering with the way they live, then all we do is good, where are we sinful?
Our bestest sin is not forgiving, hence why we then have most all the problems in the world…

 

[OneSheep]

I have no information on what our armed forces teach when sending people to wars, but I would think they somehow condition soldiers minds into believing they aren’t actually fighting a fellow human, so that they can do the “job” . Same for the other side.

Most of the time no brain-washing is necessary. Kids in the U.S. that happen to read the media get exposed to plenty of one-sided condemnation. Try to tell an “informed” kid the Muslim side of the story, and they don’t believe you. Believe me, I know from experience. Anti-Islam and Anti-many-other people are part of the modern American narrative. Have you ever clicked on the “Islam” ad at the top of the screen? (maybe you don’t get the same ad). Does the book describe how we can forgive Muslims and work together with them to create the Kingdom of God? I don’t get that from the description. I may be wrong, though.

We are all as bad as each other, and I have no idea how we can ever live side by side because there is to much corruption in our world now.

That goes back to the question. Is there part of us that is bad? As far as corruption goes, that is nothing new. God has given us the tools to live side by side, by giving us a conscience, and teaching us, in person, how to forgive.

We as the “civilized” part of the world, can not just turn the other cheek and allow terrorism, we must defend ourselves and other innocent people, but at what price? Never ending wars…

Sorry rambling on again…

Yes I most probably have done or said something to someone in the past where I was aware of consequence of hurting them but still went ahead. I only know that when I would have a arguement with a friend (when I was alot younger, now i have grown I don’t allow things to get out of hand as easily to cause a fall out) I wouldn’t be able to relax until I had cleared the air, and trust me I was the one who always made to first step, and still am.

Sure, we need to defend ourselves, but have we tried forgiveness and reconciliation as a long-term solution? No. Governments and armies do not have the solution. Religions have the solution. Forgiveness is a major tenet of every religion.

When we get caught up in arguments, our dominance drive starts to kick in. As with all of the passions, when we are caught up in wanting something, our empathy is mechanically blocked. It takes a lot of awareness to realize it has happened. There is a huge difference between “knowing a consequence” as far as the penalty that will happen to a person if they do something bad, and the “not know what they are doing” that Jesus was talking about from the cross. When you were hurting this person, did you know you were hurting an incredibly loved creature of God? Did you see the infinite value of human life - and the importance of this person’s wellbeing? Probably not. Like the rest of us, you were probably caught up (blinded) by your desire for power or dominance, or you were doing what you thought someone “deserved”.

So ok, you say they are blind, I say they can be blind to begin with, but when you see the harm an act does to others over and over, why do some people change their way of thinking but others can not.

I have to look at these on a case-by-case basis in order to understand and forgive. Do you want to work on an example? You have already shown me in this thread that you have already done a lot of this understanding and forgiving of people.

Did you forgive Bin Laden before or after his death?
I personally wished him to be captured and to held responsible for his crimes.

I spent my share of time hating OBL, and then I forgave him. I never stopped hoping that he would be captured, though, and somehow be held responsible for his crime. I also started a thread on CAF on how to forgive OBL. We are called to forgive our enemies, but people don’t know how to go about doing so.

So all things are good, we were made good, the earth, animals etc are good. What we do then is pretty much good, if we don’t hurt someone else by word/deed apart from taking someones life or intervering with the way they live, then all we do is good, where are we sinful?
Our bestest sin is not forgiving, hence why we then have most all the problems in the world…

The first sentence does not follow from the second. We are good, but we do bad things because of our ignorance and blindness. Ignorance and blindness are “absences”, thus they do not in themselves “exist”.

But let me add a huge disclaimer here. Do not take my word for it. Do not take St. Augustine’s word for it either, when he says things like “whatsoever exists is good”. You have to find this out for yourself. You have to painstakingly forgive everyone who ever hurt you, forgive yourself for every sin you have ever committed, and forgive the parts of yourself that you resent.

This is very important because the capacity to DENY is also part of our nature. It is a good part of our nature, because I am certain that it helps waylay suicide. If we say OBL is a good person, but resent him anyway, then we are in denial and have not taken the steps to forgive! Our resentment has to be the cue for knowing when it is time to forgive. If we think we have forgiven someone, but still resent the person, we are not done yet.

 

[OneSheep]

As far as such forgiveness goes, it is doable!

For me, it took a lot of prayer and painful admissions. This is something that each and every one of us is called to do, and it can be done. I did it when I was 23 years old, and it took about 2 weeks of intense prayer and reflection. Afterwards, other issues would occasionally come into my awareness, and once in awhile still do. The calling was to forgive everything that I condemn. Our limitation is that there are many things that we condemn without even realizing we have such negative feelings. So the best we can do is to forgive everything that we resent within the realm of our awareness, and I am fairly certain that this is exactly what St. Augustine did in order to make the absolute statements he made.

 

[simpleas]

Most of the time no brain-washing is necessary. Kids in the U.S. that happen to read the media get exposed to plenty of one-sided condemnation. Try to tell an “informed” kid the Muslim side of the story, and they don’t believe you. Believe me, I know from experience. Anti-Islam and Anti-many-other people are part of the modern American narrative. Have you ever clicked on the “Islam” ad at the top of the screen? (maybe you don’t get the same ad). Does the book describe how we can forgive Muslims and work together with them to create the Kingdom of God? I don’t get that from the description. I may be wrong, though.

That goes back to the question. Is there part of us that is bad? As far as corruption goes, that is nothing new. God has given us the tools to live side by side, by giving us a conscience, and teaching us, in person, how to forgive.

Sure, we need to defend ourselves, but have we tried forgiveness and reconciliation as a long-term solution? No. Governments and armies do not have the solution. Religions have the solution. Forgiveness is a major tenet of every religion.

When we get caught up in arguments, our dominance drive starts to kick in. As with all of the passions, when we are caught up in wanting something, our empathy is mechanically blocked. It takes a lot of awareness to realize it has happened. There is a huge difference between “knowing a consequence” as far as the penalty that will happen to a person if they do something bad, and the “not know what they are doing” that Jesus was talking about from the cross. When you were hurting this person, did you know you were hurting an incredibly loved creature of God? Did you see the infinite value of human life - and the importance of this person’s wellbeing? Probably not. Like the rest of us, you were probably caught up (blinded) by your desire for power or dominance, or you were doing what you thought someone “deserved”.

I have to look at these on a case-by-case basis in order to understand and forgive. Do you want to work on an example? You have already shown me in this thread that you have already done a lot of this understanding and forgiving of people.

I spent my share of time hating OBL, and then I forgave him. I never stopped hoping that he would be captured, though, and somehow be held responsible for his crime. I also started a thread on CAF on how to forgive OBL. We are called to forgive our enemies, but people don’t know how to go about doing so.

The first sentence does not follow from the second. We are good, but we do bad things because of our ignorance and blindness. Ignorance and blindness are “absences”, thus they do not in themselves “exist”.

But let me add a huge disclaimer here. Do not take my word for it. Do not take St. Augustine’s word for it either, when he says things like “whatsoever exists is good”. You have to find this out for yourself. You have to painstakingly forgive everyone who ever hurt you, forgive yourself for every sin you have ever committed, and forgive the parts of yourself that you resent.

This is very important because the capacity to DENY is also part of our nature. It is a good part of our nature, because I am certain that it helps waylay suicide. If we say OBL is a good person, but resent him anyway, then we are in denial and have not taken the steps to forgive! Our resentment has to be the cue for knowing when it is time to forgive. If we think we have forgiven someone, but still resent the person, we are not done yet.

Not sure how I seem to be being preached to about how I should start forgiving all what you said? Unless i am reading this in the wrong way?

As I said above Our biggest sin is not forgiving each other…I didn’t mean it personally about me or you, but about nations of people in general.

As for what St Augustine says, well I must not understand what he really means, everything that exists is good…but it doesn’t always stay good?

Yeah, you are probably right about kids already being brain washed into hating other people not of their own faith, I lived in N.Ireland for a few years so can relate to that. Yet not everyone lets the poison into their minds. I suppose I was thinking more
of how soldiers are trained to be able to take anothers life. Some don’t cope very well after they come back from wars as I seen in the News etc.

But I think we have gone off the main post some, although its interesting to explore these areas .

 

[OneSheep]

Not sure how I seem to be being preached to about how I should start forgiving all what you said? Unless i am reading this in the wrong way?

You aren’t reading it the “wrong” way, but looking back at what I wrote, it does look preachy. What I am trying to say is that perception of “bad” souls, people, institutions, or what have you disappears when we forgive. It is a cause-and-effect thing. So when I say “you have to forgive…” I am saying that forgiveness is the means by which we can see things as St. Augustine did. You don’t have to do anything on my account.

As I said above Our biggest sin is not forgiving each other…I didn’t mean it personally about me or you, but about nations of people in general.

Oh, I understand now, and agree. I was a little confused about what you said on that line.

As for what St Augustine says, well I must not understand what he really means, everything that exists is good…but it doesn’t always stay good?

Very good question. St Augustine actually fails the task, eventually. In his book, Confessions, he never forgives himself for following the Manichean philosophy, among other things, and he never forgives the Manichaens themselves. He is convinced that he was evil when he followed Manichaen ways. I disagree.

Yeah, you are probably right about kids already being brain washed into hating other people not of their own faith, I lived in N.Ireland for a few years so can relate to that. Yet not everyone lets the poison into their minds. I suppose I was thinking more
of how soldiers are trained to be able to take anothers life. Some don’t cope very well after they come back from wars as I seen in the News etc.

But I think we have gone off the main post some, although its interesting to explore these areas .

The only way to resist the poison entering our minds is to forgive the “poison” as soon as we get it. We have to be aware that it is a lie, though, and that requires awaremess.

I think it pertains to the main post because if “original sin”, is a badge we wear because of past sins, then it needs to be said that perception plays a huge role in all of this.

As Fr. Anthony de Mello said, “If you have any negative feelings about anyone, you are living in an illusion.”.

 

[grannymh]

When I honestly look at Original Sin, in addition to seeing it for what it is according to Catholicism, I find all kinds of blindness, intellectual, emotional, and mostly spiritual.

 

[simpleas]

You aren’t reading it the “wrong” way, but looking back at what I wrote, it does look preachy. What I am trying to say is that perception of “bad” souls, people, institutions, or what have you disappears when we forgive. It is a cause-and-effect thing. So when I say “you have to forgive…” I am saying that forgiveness is the means by which we can see things as St. Augustine did. You don’t have to do anything on my account.

Oh, I understand now, and agree. I was a little confused about what you said on that line.

Very good question. St Augustine actually fails the task, eventually. In his book, Confessions, he never forgives himself for following the Manichean philosophy, among other things, and he never forgives the Manichaens themselves. He is convinced that he was evil when he followed Manichaen ways. I disagree.

The only way to resist the poison entering our minds is to forgive the “poison” as soon as we get it. We have to be aware that it is a lie, though, and that requires awaremess.

I think it pertains to the main post because if “original sin”, is a badge we wear because of past sins, then it needs to be said that perception plays a huge role in all of this.

As Fr. Anthony de Mello said, “If you have any negative feelings about anyone, you are living in an illusion.”.

I think we are on the same line of thought, just got crossed wires:thumbsup:

I haven’t read up on St Augustine, you have me intrigued now, so will do some research.

As the O.P hasn’t commented on any posts (unless i’ve missed it) I wonder if they have had their question answered?

 

[simpleas]

When I honestly look at Original Sin, in addition to seeing it for what it is according to Catholicism, I find all kinds of blindness, intellectual, emotional, and mostly spiritual.

Could you explain alittle more what you mean?