Original Sin

[grannymh]

From granny 's Post 115.
When I honestly look at Original Sin, in addition to seeing it for what it is according to Catholicism, I find all kinds of blindness, intellectual, emotional, and mostly spiritual.

Could you explain alittle more what you mean?

My thanks to those who talked about being blind about whatever…

The subject being talked about does not matter. It was the concept of blindness which made me realize that there are some, not all, people who are simply blind to the reality of Original Sin as described by the Catholic Church, which includes the divinity of Jesus Christ. Having learned fundamental Catholic doctrines regarding Original Sin long before studying the first three chapters of Genesis, I am surprised, blindsided, by some of the current ideas regarding Original Sin and subsequently spirituality of self.

Consequently, not only have I re-learned some basic Catholic doctrines (flowing from the first three chapters of Genesis) and their history because of my job away from Catholic Answers Forums, I am researching sources for the various different objections to Original Sin. When I honestly look at Catholic Original Sin, in the light of blindness, I am curious as to the general categories of objection sources. While I do not claim to know all the sources, in my humble opinion, avoiding the reality of Original Sin can be as simple as “lack of knowledge”, that is intellectual blindness as a source. Or the avoidance can be as simple as disappointment for the human condition, that can be a subjective emotional blindness as a source.

Any kind of “blindness” to Original Sin’s reality lessens an understanding of what constitutes a human’s total spirituality. The adjective total is very important because there are many, many aspects of spirituality, for example, there is forgiveness, participating in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, atonement for sin, etc. There have been many teachers of spirituality beginning with Jesus the Good Shepherd’s teaching of the value of a person in the sight of God. (Genesis 1: 26-27) The truth of spirituality is found in the full significance of Catholic Doctrines which has come about according to the wisdom and guidance of the Holy Spirit, Whose mission was specifically promised in chapter 14, Gospel of John. (CCC 66 and especially CCC 88-95)

From CCC 89. "There is an organic connection between our spiritual life and the dogmas. … "

 

[OneSheep]

While I do not claim to know all the sources, in my humble opinion, avoiding the reality of Original Sin can be as simple as “lack of knowledge”, that is intellectual blindness as a source. Or the avoidance can be as simple as disappointment for the human condition, that can be a subjective emotional blindness as a source.

Any kind of “blindness” to Original Sin’s reality lessens an understanding of what constitutes a human’s total spirituality.

I agree completely. Humans have a condition of original sin. The question is, how is it defined, and how do we feel about it? Is there some part of the human that we naturally resent, because it can be problematic? Yes. How do we deal with that part? Do we continue to condemn it, which helps us to control ourselves? Of course, but continued condemnation once we have our appetities under control is a problem in itself.

Discovery that God is not to be equated with our conscience is the discovery of an unconditionally loving God. Our consciences, though a gift from God, do not love us unconditionally, that is not the way they work.

To find God’s love, we have to go deeper than our own conscience. To do so, we forgive.

 

[grannymh]

I agree completely. Humans have a condition of original sin. The question is, how is it defined, and how do we feel about it? Is there some part of the human that we naturally resent, because it can be problematic? Yes. How do we deal with that part? Do we continue to condemn it, which helps us to control ourselves? Of course, but continued condemnation once we have our appetities under control is a problem in itself.

Discovery that God is not to be equated with our conscience is the discovery of an unconditionally loving God. Our consciences, though a gift from God, do not love us unconditionally, that is not the way they work.

To find God’s love, we have to go deeper than our own conscience. To do so, we forgive.

A couple of your comments/questions should be answered in Catholic terminology. And there are some comments/questions which deal in ordinary human feelings which may or may not apply to the objective fact that Original Sin is an actual event at the beginning of human history.

It should not be a surprise that a person’s personal feelings about Original Sin are the same as other peoples’ feelings across the globe and through the centuries especially those centuries close to the Protestant Reformation. Therefore, it should be understood that if I choose to answer some of your more difficult comments/questions, I am not implying anything negative about yourself.

Considering that you refer to “we” perhaps we, you and me and the rest of us, can assume that there is no intent to accuse anyone of this or that.

This is from an early post in this thread.

Originally Posted by Lost_Sheep http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
We are all conceived/born in the state of Original Sin; the sin of Adam.

*Why are we held accountable for something someone did 1000s of years ago? *

From my post 8.

May I ask you what that something was? And who that someone was?
I hear so many “catholic” stories, I can no longer assume that I know that something and someone. Thus, I am prevented from answering questions.
Is it important for our spirituality to know the truth?

Is it important for our spirituality to know the truth? I found the answer to be yes because it is the results, more so than the condition, of Original Sin which affects how our human nature develops its spirituality beyond the initial gift of a rational spiritual soul.

As CCC 89 points out. "There is an organic connection between our spiritual life and the dogmas. … "

Comparing the spiritual status of Adam before Original Sin and the spiritual status of his descendants after the Fall, I now find that our own self-spirituality is connected to consequences of Adam’s free choice to remove himself from God’s friendship. The more truth we know, the better we can grow in spirituality in a relationship with our Creator. (John 3: 16)

I do hope that I can share these “spiritual” truths of Catholic teachings in a peaceful atmosphere.

 

[OneSheep]

It should not be a surprise that a person’s personal feelings about Original Sin are the same as other peoples’ feelings across the globe and through the centuries especially those centuries close to the Protestant Reformation. Therefore, it should be understood that if I choose to answer some of your more difficult comments/questions, I am not implying anything negative about yourself.

Your comments have never indicated otherwise, and I hope that mine have not either. I appreciate your respect, patience, and acceptance.

Considering that you refer to “we” perhaps we, you and me and the rest of us, can assume that there is no intent to accuse anyone of this or that.

I get careless with “we” sometimes. I was in a hurry when I wrote that this morning. I try to stay with “I” statements, but that “we” came out as a calling. We are all called to forgive. I may be a broken record about that…

Is it important for our spirituality to know the truth? I found the answer to be yes because it is the results, more so than the condition, of Original Sin which affects how our human nature develops its spirituality beyond the initial gift of a rational spiritual soul.

As CCC 89 points out. "There is an organic connection between our spiritual life and the dogmas. … "

What does it mean to you, this “organic connection”?

Comparing the spiritual status of Adam before Original Sin and the spiritual status of his descendants after the Fall, I now find that our own self-spirituality is connected to consequences of Adam’s free choice to remove himself from God’s friendship. The more truth we know, the better we can grow in spirituality in a relationship with our Creator. (John 3: 16)

I do hope that I can share these “spiritual” truths of Catholic teachings in a peaceful atmosphere.

I hear you saying that it has been important in your own spiritual life to believe that there has been a consequence for Adam’s free choice to remove himself from God’s friendship. Can you describe why that belief has been important to you? I held the same belief for some time, but I no longer look at the creation story this way, and getting away from the literal interpretation of the creation story has freed my relationship with God, in a big way. That said, I am still quite open-minded, and respectful as to the importance of the literal intepretation of the story in someone else’s eyes. The world, as much as I may want it to, does not revolve around me.

God’s Peace be with you.

 

[grannymh]

I hear you saying that it has been important in your own spiritual life to believe that there has been a consequence for Adam’s free choice to remove himself from God’s friendship. Can you describe why that belief has been important to you?
God’s Peace be with you.

You are right in that the consequences of Adam’s free choice to remove himself from God’s friendship is very important in my own spiritual life. That importance was learned in grade school without a discussion of what was literal and what was not in the human creation story. I learned it as a basic fact which accounted for the divinity of Jesus Christ.

One of the first adult books I read was a summary of Jesus’ life. When it came to the miracle of loaves and fishes, the chapter switched emphasis to the crowd which was so moved by Jesus’ words that people shared whatever food they had. Without ever hearing about the heresy of Arianism, denying that Jesus was True God, I understood that the divinity of Jesus was under attack. Because he was interested in other religions, my Dad would take me with him when he visited open houses so that he could learn about other faiths. What interested me was that some religious groups considered Jesus as a prophet among prophets, an equal among humans, the same as other human prophets throughout history. I would leave thinking about how wonderful Catholicism was in that Jesus was both True God *and *True Man.

The above remained in my memory bank until a few years ago when I landed on CAF. Not only were there interesting questions about Adam’s human ability to discern right from wrong, there were some very creative answers which were far removed from basic doctrinal facts I had learned as a young student.

As you asked me to describe why my own belief in Adam is important – I realized, as I read hundreds of posts, that the connection between Adam and the divinity of Jesus was being avoided. And that the key issue of Jesus being God is essential in understanding the Real Presence of Jesus in the Catholic Eucharist. For me, it was back to the drawing board. Besides reading the first three chapters in Genesis, I had to find out what the Catholic Church considered as doctrines and what would be considered a figurative way of presenting the environment of human history at its beginning.

One of the key pieces of information is this sentence from CCC 389. “The Church, which has the mind of Christ, knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.” My grade school teachers were right.

One of the benefits for my spiritual life, is that in studying the first three chapters of Genesis, I keep finding basic hints essential to spirituality as further described by Jesus and His holy Catholic Church. The question was – Does information about the spiritual relationship between humans and God have to be literal or figurative? Or simply, does it have to be true? What is frankly difficult about spiritual information in the first three chapters of Genesis is that often this information is a seed which needs developing by the presence of Jesus Who is the Fullness of All Revelation. With the presence of the promised Holy Spirit, the Catholic Church continues to grasp the full significance of Divine Revelation. (CCC 65-67)

One interesting verse is Genesis 3: 9. The context is after Adam’s sin.
The Lord God then called to the man and asked him, “Where are you?”
Even though we are different from Adam in that we are not the only first human alive, we can still adapt Genesis 3:9 to our own spirituality. Looking at our own spirituality in this century, God can rightfully ask “Where are you?” Here is where God’s forgiveness is so important. Are we remaining aloof? Are we hiding among material pleasures like Adam hiding in the Garden? (Sorry. But I can’t help remembering those old children’s books with branches of leaves appropriately placed in front of Adam and Eve.)
Or are we on our way to the Sacrament of Reconciliation? Even our minor sins should be brought to this essential Sacrament. This Sacrament gives us graces for the future so that we can grow in spirituality and grow away from our imperfections. Our imperfections can really be annoying to others.

Obviously, God knew where Adam was and why he was hiding. God knows where we are when we choose sin. One truth of Genesis 3:9 is that God wants us to recognize where we are, that is, where we are in relationship to God Himself. God wants us to recognize how we look at ourselves and consequently how we need to seek better ways of walking with Christ. God’s forgiveness of our sins, major and minor, comes first. And then we need to imitate God and forgive ourselves and others.

The possibility of forgiveness dates back to the first sin which God was ready to forgive when He called Adam. God became present to Adam, the sinner. It is the reality of Adam’s sin and the reality of the Good Shepherd’s presence which assures us that we sinners are worthy of redemption and worthy of God’s mercy. What each of us has to do is to call back to God, saying “Here I am.”

The short answer to the request to describe why belief in Adam and Original Sin is important is that when we set aside the Catholic reasons for reality, we are left groping for basic truths which belong to our human nature. It is because our human nature, which has been transmitted to us, dates to the first human on earth, that we know for sure that God calls each of us to share in His own divine life (Sanctifying Grace) here on earth and later in joy eternal in His presence (Beatific Vision).

Hopefully, the above will serve as a reasonable foundation for answering your valuable questions in future posts.

Link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[grannymh]

I hear you saying that it has been important in your own spiritual life to believe that there has been a consequence for Adam’s free choice to remove himself from God’s friendship. Can you describe why that belief has been important to you?
God’s Peace be with you.

You are right that the consequences of Adam’s sin is very important in my spiritual life. The importance of Original Sin was learned in grade school as a basic fact which accounted for the divinity of Jesus Christ.

One of the first adult books I read was a summary of Jesus’ life. When it came to the miracle of loaves and fishes, the chapter switched emphasis to the crowd which was so moved by Jesus’ words that people shared whatever food they had. Without ever hearing about the heresy of Arianism, denying that Jesus was True God, I understood that the divinity of Jesus was under attack. Because he was interested in other religions, my Dad would take me with him when he visited open houses so that he could learn about other faiths. What interested me was that some religious groups considered Jesus as a prophet among prophets, an equal among humans, the same as other human prophets throughout history. I would leave thinking about how wonderful Catholicism was in that Jesus was both True God *and *True Man.

The above remained in my memory bank until a few years ago when I landed on CAF. Not only were there interesting questions about Adam’s human ability to discern right from wrong, there were some very creative answers which were far removed from the basic doctrinal facts I had learned as a young student.

As you asked me to describe why my own belief in Adam is important – I realized, as I read hundreds of posts, that the connection between Adam and the divinity of Jesus was avoided. Yet, the key issue of Jesus being God is essential in understanding the Real Presence of Jesus in the Catholic Eucharist. For me, it was back to the drawing board. Besides reading the first three chapters in Genesis, I needed to understand Catholic doctrines and what would be considered a figurative way of presenting the environment of human history at its beginning.

One of the key pieces of information is this sentence from CCC 389. “The Church, which has the mind of Christ, knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.” My grade school teachers were right.

One of the benefits is that in studying the first three chapters of Genesis, I keep finding basic hints essential to spirituality as further described by Jesus and His holy Catholic Church. The question was – Does information about the spiritual relationship between humans and God have to be either literal or figurative? Or simply, does it have to be true? What is frankly difficult about spiritual information in the first three chapters of Genesis is that often this information is a seed which needs developing by the presence of Jesus Who is the Fullness of All Revelation. With the presence of the promised Holy Spirit, the Catholic Church continues to grasp the full significance of Divine Revelation. (CCC 65-67)

One interesting verse is Genesis 3: 9. The context is after Adam’s sin.
The Lord God then called to the man and asked him, “Where are you?”
Even though we are different from Adam in that we are not the only first human alive, we can still adapt Genesis 3:9 to our own spirituality. Looking at our own spirituality in this century, God can rightfully ask “Where are you?” Here is where God’s forgiveness is so important. Are we remaining aloof? Are we hiding among material pleasures like Adam hiding in the Garden? (Sorry. But I can’t help remembering those old children’s books with branches of leaves appropriately placed in front of Adam and Eve.)
Or are we on our way to the Sacrament of Reconciliation? Even our minor sins should be brought to this essential Sacrament. This Sacrament gives us graces for the future so that we can grow in spirituality and grow away from our imperfections. Our imperfections can really be annoying to others.

Obviously, God knew where Adam was and why he was hiding. God knows where we are when we choose sin. One truth of Genesis 3:9 is that God wants us to recognize where we are, that is, where we are in relationship to God Himself. God calls out to us to recognize how we look at ourselves and consequently how we need to seek better ways of walking with Christ. God’s forgiveness of our sins, major and minor, comes first. And then we need to imitate God and forgive ourselves and others.

The possibility of forgiveness dates back to the first sin which God was ready to forgive when He called Adam. God became present to Adam, the sinner. It is the reality of Adam’s sin and the reality of the Good Shepherd’s presence which assures us that we sinners are worthy of redemption and worthy of God’s mercy. What each of us has to do is to call back to God, saying “Here I am.”

The short answer to the request to describe why belief in Adam and Original Sin is important is that when we set aside the Catholic reasons for reality, we are left groping for basic truths which belong to our human nature. It is because our human nature, which has been transmitted to us, dates to the first human on earth, that we know for sure that God calls each of us to share in His own divine life (Sanctifying Grace) here on earth and later in joy eternal in His presence (Beatific Vision). While starting at CCC 355 is a good way of learning about our own human nature, CCC 356 refers to how we are called to share, by knowledge and love, in God’s own life.

Hopefully, the above is a foundation for answering your valuable questions in my future posts. If not, please comment.

Link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

 

[OneSheep]

Sorry I deleted some of the parts of your post. I appreciated it all, but I had to make some cuts to fit all of this in. Some of it wandered, a little. I am trying to focus in on key points.

You are right that the consequences of Adam’s sin is very important in my spiritual life. The importance of Original Sin was learned in grade school as a basic fact which accounted for the divinity of Jesus Christ.

One of the first adult books I read was a summary of Jesus’ life… I would leave thinking about how wonderful Catholicism was in that Jesus was both True God *and *True Man.

This is a major part of our faith.

As you asked me to describe why my own belief in Adam is important – I realized, as I read hundreds of posts, that the connection between Adam and the divinity of Jesus was avoided. Yet, the key issue of Jesus being God is essential in understanding the Real Presence of Jesus in the Catholic Eucharist. For me, it was back to the drawing board. Besides reading the first three chapters in Genesis, I needed to understand Catholic doctrines and what would be considered a figurative way of presenting the environment of human history at its beginning.

One of the key pieces of information is this sentence from CCC 389. “The Church, which has the mind of Christ, knows very well that we cannot tamper with the revelation of original sin without undermining the mystery of Christ.” My grade school teachers were right.

I have certainly “tampered with” the standard idea of original sin, and yet, I do not believe my conclusions have undermined the mystery of Christ at all. So, I am a happy counterexample. It would be different if I hadn’t followed the very teachings of Christ concerning forgiveness; for it was in doing so that I had to discount the standard teachings of original sin in order for it all to make sense.

God always forgives. To me, when anything occurs in the creation story that indicates anything contrary to that fact, I have to make adjustments. It appears to me that the creation story, among other things, is a story about God giving us a conscience. When we are children, we are becoming aware of our conscience. So, if we ask a child about a “voice within”, that “voice” is going to say that the child is bad in some ways and good in other ways.

This is the way that the voice is designed to work. When we violate the rules that have formed through our experiences, our conscience gets into its self-punishing mode, we self-condemn, we feel guilty. Our consciences do not love unconditionally! The conscience serves us in modifying our behaviors until our empathy fully develops. Tell me now, as an adult do you personally need a conscience in order to behave? If you did not fear, would you still do the right thing? I think your answer is probably yes to the second and no to the first. As children, though, this is not the case - until empathy develops.

But though the conscience is a gift, it seems to me that conscience is not to be equated with God. Would there be a problem in telling the kids this? That is a good question. I always told my children that God loves them unconditionally, but they definitely got their share of my wrath! But then, they always knew my forgiveness afterwards. Does God share this mercurial ride of human emotion? Well, that is not the God I know. God’s forgiveness is immediate. It is very understandable, however, to project that God does go through the range of human emotion.

The possibility of forgiveness dates back to the first sin which God was ready to forgive when He called Adam. God became present to Adam, the sinner. It is the reality of Adam’s sin and the reality of the Good Shepherd’s presence which assures us that we sinners are worthy of redemption and worthy of God’s mercy. What each of us has to do is to call back to God, saying “Here I am.”

From ccc 66: “Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.”

St Thomas Aquinas said that revelation comes from two sources: scripture, and nature. The more we learn about nature, the more we will learn about God. We are learning more and more about human nature, so there are new items to shed light on revelation. As a life-long student of the sciences, especially those concerning human behavior, I see that everything that we are, all of our drives, emotions, and capacities, are gifts from God. The human is beautiful and wonderful. If “worthiness” indicates to me in any way that “unworthiness” was ever possible, then that is my conscience talking. Worthiness, to me, is a non-issue with God.

But, reading between the lines, I hear you saying that it is possible for the human to be unworthy. To you, what would be the means by which we would be determined “unworthy”?

 

[OneSheep]

The short answer to the request to describe why belief in Adam and Original Sin is important is that when we set aside the Catholic reasons for reality, we are left groping for basic truths which belong to our human nature. It is because our human nature, which has been transmitted to us, dates to the first human on earth, that we know for sure that God calls each of us to share in His own divine life (Sanctifying Grace) here on earth and later in joy eternal in His presence (Beatific Vision). While starting at CCC 355 is a good way of learning about our own human nature, CCC 356 refers to how we are called to share, by knowledge and love, in God’s own life.

Hopefully, the above is a foundation for answering your valuable questions in my future posts. If not, please comment.

I share completely your sentiments in this section. So, even though we look at the creation story differently, we both love and appreciate God and His creation. And we both believe in the importance of reconciliation and forgiveness. I am not diminishing the importance of this total discussion, because I am sure it is a roadblock for many, but the result is basically the same. We both find joy and guidance in Christ. We both appreciate the Church’s teachings.

 

[grannymh]

From granny’s post 122.
The short answer to the request to describe why belief in Adam and Original Sin is important is that when we set aside the Catholic reasons for reality, we are left groping for basic truths which belong to our human nature. It is because our human nature, which has been transmitted to us, dates to the first human on earth, that we know for sure that God calls each of us to share in His own divine life (Sanctifying Grace) here on earth and later in joy eternal in His presence (Beatific Vision). While starting at CCC 355 is a good way of learning about our own human nature, CCC 356 refers to how we are called to share, by knowledge and love, in God’s own life.

Hopefully, the above is a foundation for answering your valuable questions in my future posts. If not, please comment.

I share completely your sentiments in this section. So, even though we look at the creation story differently, we both love and appreciate God and His creation. And we both believe in the importance of reconciliation and forgiveness. I am not diminishing the importance of this total discussion, because I am sure it is a roadblock for many, but the result is basically the same. We both find joy and guidance in Christ. We both appreciate the Church’s teachings.

Many people like you, me, they, including the people my Dad would talk with (post 122), can appreciate Christ’s teachings starting with the prayer Our Father. But not all of us participate in Sunday’s Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I believe that part of this is because some, not all, Catholics have lost contact with the divinity of Christ especially in the Gospel of John, chapter six. Many of us no longer pay attention to the words the Priest says during the Consecration of bread and wine into the Body and Blood of our Risen Lord Jesus Christ.
Referring to Jesus Christ, the Priest prays: “On the day before He was to suffer, He took bread in His holy and venerable hands, and with eyes raised to heaven to You, O God, His almighty Father, giving You thanks, He said the blessing, broke the bread and gave it to His disciples, saying…” From Eucharistic Prayer, first version.

Here is an important distinction that you, me and readers have to make.

All of us can be faithful to our Sunday obligation. The person(s) I am seriously concerned about are those “professionals” including some, not all, clergy who teach the human origin without reference to basic Catholic doctrines. There are many different ways this is being done. Basically, the intention is to update (overturn) certain doctrines so that the Church can be more modern.

Obviously, by definition, published natural science research papers would not promote the Catholic teachings on human origin and human nature because the realm of natural science is the material world of our decomposing anatomy and not the realm of the God-created spiritual soul. Natural science is a true Gift from God which benefits society. As such, it deserves our sincere respect. However, interpreters should avoid making their own doctrines regarding Divine powers of creation.

In order for science not to contradict Catholicism, two things must occur. 1. Science has to be conducted properly, and 2. Catholic doctrines have to be properly understood.

Conducting science properly is off topic. Understanding the spirituality of Adam in relationship to our [Catholic] spirituality is proper.

 

[simpleas]

Question time from little old me

Seriously though, how does one know/feel they are a spiritual person? I can feel a sense of goodness and happiness sometimes, not all, when I leave church, but I’m not sure if these “feelings” are spiritual.

I think some people (myself included) have or do struggle with the teaching that our first parents were graceful and of goodness, but made such a bad choice and turn away from the love of God, that we all try to find (or may already have) now in our own personal lives.

I’ll admit I have used caf to ask questions about issues, when really I should have informed myself, but its alot easier to ask on here and quicker to get feedback especially if there is noone local in the area to chat about such topics. On the other hand the feedback isn’t always “in tune” with our catholic faith.
I realise we all have different levels of knowledge, some is miss informed, some is confused, some none existent! And what way some understand some-things is very different.

I thought the best way to try to understand the creation story was to start with the creation story, but I’m slowly learning I need to start with Jesus.

Hopefully I’ll understand more as I journey in my faith.

Thanks to all for feedback on my questions, long may we continue

 

[OneSheep]

I apologize again for not addressing all that you wrote. I am a little confused by some of the things you wrote in your last post. Have I indicated to you that I do not attend mass regularly, or that I do not appreciate and believe the Eucharistic prayer?

All of us can be faithful to our Sunday obligation. The person(s) I am seriously concerned about are those “professionals” including some, not all, clergy who teach the human origin without reference to basic Catholic doctrines. There are many different ways this is being done. Basically, the intention is to update (overturn) certain doctrines so that the Church can be more modern.

This would not be giving people the benefit of the doubt. It is our calling to give people the benefit of the doubt. The intent is not to overturn doctrines, but to clarify and expand. The purpose is not to “modernize” but to clarify issues in light of new knowledge. Do you disagree with St. Thomas Aquinas’ quote? Revelation happens. For example, an epileptic in Jesus’ time might be considered possessed by a demon. Modern science has explanations for such disorders that do not involve possession.

Obviously, by definition, published natural science research papers would not promote the Catholic teachings on human origin and human nature because the realm of natural science is the material world of our decomposing anatomy and not the realm of the God-created spiritual soul. Natural science is a true Gift from God which benefits society. As such, it deserves our sincere respect. However, interpreters should avoid making their own doctrines regarding Divine powers of creation

I am not making my “own doctrine”. Please try to give me the benefit of the doubt. I am trying to make sense of the creation story in light of an unconditionally loving God.

Speaking of that, I was really hoping you would answer the question in my post #123:

Reading between the lines, I hear you saying that it is possible for the human to be unworthy. To you, what would be the means by which we would be determined “unworthy”?

Your answer to this may indicate one of the specific items that may have a lot more meaning to you, something that has added to your spiritual life. Is this possibility of humans being deemed unworthy helpful to you? If so, how? Your answer to this question would get at the root of the difference between our approaches.

In order for science not to contradict Catholicism, two things must occur. 1. Science has to be conducted properly, and 2. Catholic doctrines have to be properly understood.

Conducting science properly is off topic. Understanding the spirituality of Adam in relationship to our [Catholic] spirituality is proper.

To me, our understanding about how the human mind works, information that we can glean from the sciences, gives some revelation about human spirituality. As I have stated, Aquinas wrote of revelation from the natural world. It sounds like you would rather not consider what scientists have learned about the human mind. Perhaps you prefer that doctrine remains unchanged. That’s okay, I can respect that.

 

[OneSheep]

Question time from little old me

Seriously though, how does one know/feel they are a spiritual person? I can feel a sense of goodness and happiness sometimes, not all, when I leave church, but I’m not sure if these “feelings” are spiritual.

All humans have a spiritual aspect to their existence, even if they are atheists.

I think some people (myself included) have or do struggle with the teaching that our first parents were graceful and of goodness, but made such a bad choice and turn away from the love of God, that we all try to find (or may already have) now in our own personal lives.

I’ll admit I have used caf to ask questions about issues, when really I should have informed myself, but its alot easier to ask on here and quicker to get feedback especially if there is noone local in the area to chat about such topics. On the other hand the feedback isn’t always “in tune” with our catholic faith.

I like this quote from the Holy Father, when referring to St. Paul:

“Paul does not say to the Athenians: ‘This is the encyclopedia of truth. Study this and you have the truth, the truth.’ No! The truth does not enter into an encyclopedia. The truth is an encounter—it is a meeting with Supreme Truth: Jesus, the great truth.” Nobody owns this truth, we are told, but when we find ourselves, like Paul, possessed by it, galvanized by its force (“We receive the truth when we meet it.”), then we are surely obliged to share it with others.

I am talking about the truth that I have encountered, and well, many others have encountered the same truth: God loves us and forgives us unconditionally. There are plenty of places in the Bible and the CCC that imply otherwise. These instances can be clarified. Some people find no contradictions. That’s okay too. Their truth is a little different. Often it is just a language thing, but sometimes not.

I realise we all have different levels of knowledge, some is miss informed, some is confused, some none existent! And what way some understand some-things is very different.

I thought the best way to try to understand the creation story was to start with the creation story, but I’m slowly learning I need to start with Jesus.

Hopefully I’ll understand more as I journey in my faith.

Thanks to all for feedback on my questions, long may we continue

Journey on! Find it for yourself! I can trace much of my viewpoint to the (name removed by moderator)ut of three different priests, and probably not one of them agrees completely with the other, or with me! But remember, truth comes from relationship, relationship with the divine - both interpersonally, and in prayer. (oops. did that sound preachy?)

God Bless.

 

[grannymh]

Question time from little old me

I think some people (myself included) have or do struggle with the teaching that our first parents were graceful and of goodness, but made such a bad choice and turn away from the love of God, that we all try to find (or may already have) now in our own personal lives.

Frankly, what can be wrong with believing that our first parents were in the state of grace and that their human nature was destined for joy eternal with God? Is there something wrong, which I am missing, about the opportunity to have an eternal relationship with God?

***Without Original Sin, how would any person know that they have a true spiritual relationship with a transcendent, eternal Creator?

 

[simpleas]

All humans have a spiritual aspect to their existence, even if they are atheists.

I like this quote from the Holy Father, when referring to St. Paul:

“Paul does not say to the Athenians: ‘This is the encyclopedia of truth. Study this and you have the truth, the truth.’ No! The truth does not enter into an encyclopedia. The truth is an encounter—it is a meeting with Supreme Truth: Jesus, the great truth.” Nobody owns this truth, we are told, but when we find ourselves, like Paul, possessed by it, galvanized by its force (“We receive the truth when we meet it.”), then we are surely obliged to share it with others.

I am talking about the truth that I have encountered, and well, many others have encountered the same truth: God loves us and forgives us unconditionally. There are plenty of places in the Bible and the CCC that imply otherwise. These instances can be clarified. Some people find no contradictions. That’s okay too. Their truth is a little different. Often it is just a language thing, but sometimes not.

Journey on! Find it for yourself! I can trace much of my viewpoint to the (name removed by moderator)ut of three different priests, and probably not one of them agrees completely with the other, or with me! But remember, truth comes from relationship, relationship with the divine - both interpersonally, and in prayer. (oops. did that sound preachy?)

God Bless.

Not preachy at all.
God bless you too

 

[simpleas]

Frankly, what can be wrong with believing that our first parents were in the state of grace and that their human nature was destined for joy eternal with God? Is there something wrong, which I am missing, about the opportunity to have an eternal relationship with God?

***Without Original Sin, how would any person know that they have a true spiritual relationship with a transcendent, eternal Creator?

Maybe I should repharse the question…basically in what you have just said, why would they spoil an opportunity to have eternal happiness with God if all they knew was goodness. It was only those two people in the garden, how could they know/ be aware of the consequence of their action.
I know i’ve asked this question before, and i’m not trying to tear the story apart and prove something, I am trying to grasp a deeper understanding to it.
I will get there i’m sure!

Yes, this is another great question, so we could only have a true spiritual relationship with God because of O.S.?

I wonder what we as a human race would be like if O.S had never happened.

 

[OneSheep]

Frankly, what can be wrong with believing that our first parents were in the state of grace and that their human nature was destined for joy eternal with God? Is there something wrong, which I am missing, about the opportunity to have an eternal relationship with God?

Well, it seems to me that you already have an eternal relationship with God. …not understanding your question here…

***Without Original Sin, how would any person know that they have a true spiritual relationship with a transcendent, eternal Creator?

Fascinating question. I don’t understand the question, but it is fascinating. This question may parallel the “worthiness” question I asked, maybe. Could you clarify?

To me, every living person has a spiritual relationship with God, whether they know it or not. An atheist has a relationship with herself and other people. Will she label some aspect of the relationships as “God”? No, but the relationship is there anyway, and whatsoever she does to the least of people, that she does unto God. Does she see the interconnectedness of all that is? Does she see the beauty of all creation? Is her heart moved to empathy when she sees a hungry person? Does she resist her drive to hoard material wealth or abuse her body with addiction? Does she choose to forgive instead of holding onto grudges? All these are aspects of our spirituality.

Is there something about her relationship with God that is “untrue”? Well, as Paul says, we don’t see everything clearly now. Her relationship with God, even as an atheist, is far more spiritually aware than a baptized person who happens to be “sociopathic” (I dislike the label), a person who is baptized but has an inability to empathize with others.

Does what I am saying here trigger fear? Like “hey, if what this guy says is true, then who needs the Church? Who needs baptism? Who needs Eucharist?”. These though, are the means to a deeper relationship, one that begins with commitment. That is my truth, it may not be for anyone else. Commitment is extremely important.

 

[grannymh]

Yes, this is another great question, so we could only have a true spiritual relationship with God because of O.S.?

**No. **

Without Original Sin means no Original Sin.

No Original Sin means no Original Sin effects which includes the loss of Adam’s original state of grace, i.e., the state of being in relationship with God by sharing in His life. (CCC 355-357) In order to fully grasp the meaning of “without Original Sin” one needs to understand the amazing human nature which is in the image of God. Please do not confuse “in the image of God” with being God’s clone.

With the contracted state of no Original Sin, descendants of Adam by propagation, not imitation, would be in the state of original holiness and justice just as Adam was. CCC 404 has a very interesting comment on that subject.

Please note that the state of original holiness and justice is the state of Sanctifying Grace. While humans cannot escape their relationship of being a creature created by God; they can get rid of God’s Sanctifying Grace by freely committing mortal sin. Being in the state of Sanctifying Grace is the means of entering eternal heaven. Because Jesus, in His divinity, and in humankind’s place, atoned for Original Sin, Catholicism holds that all humans, in some manner known only to God, are called to share in God’s life. This being true means that God, on His part, does not exclude anyone from His presence. However, for any relationship to work, both parties have to be in agreement. Thus, God can offer His presence unconditionally. But, it is ourselves, who can refuse God’s presence. Our informed, free choice to refuse God’s offer is known as mortal sin. Mortal in a similar way to Genesis 2: 15-17.

Please go back to square one which is the different status between God and human.
Square two is human nature. Square three is the state of Adam’s human nature before his Original Sin which means that Adam was created **without **Original Sin.

So, how did Adam, as a person without Original Sin, know that he was in a true spiritual relationship with our Creator?

Even though our human nature is weakened compared to Adam’s nature before and thus without Original Sin, each of us is still a person like Adam. According to CCC 357, a person is not just something, but someone who is capable of self-knowledge and self-possession --that is just a start. Add the prayer Our Father which was taught years after human history began. While God forgives and continues to forgive, there is a huge difference between God forgiving Adam for his Original Sin and forgiving us who in no possible way can be considered the first human on earth.

The subsequent question, after Adam’s nature without original sin is understood, would apply to any person who is not the first person on earth.

However, this question becomes two questions. The first would be speculation as to how humans born without original sin but with a normal decomposing anatomy would enter heaven without bodily death. The second would be how would we, since none of us is the first human on earth, know that we have a true spiritual relationship with a transcendent eternal Creator.

The simple answer is that Baptism, by erasing the contracted state of Original Sin, gives us sanctifying grace which is the true spiritual relationship with God in that we share in God’s life. (CCC 356 & 405) At this point, it is important to recall CCC 1260 which says that the Holy Spirit is in charge of offering each person the possibility “of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”

Again, going back to the difference between us and God the Creator. It is apparent that we can never be equal with God which is the message first given to Adam by the tree symbolically named “The Knowledge of Good and Evil”. To understand the use of figurative language regarding becoming a god knowing about everything from good to evil, one has to read every word in CCC 396. It is also essential to read Genesis 2: 15-17. It should be obvious that Adam did not need to know every evil perfectly. What he did need to know was the evil of separating himself from God by the obvious sin of disobedience. There is a small detail, often missed, in Genesis 3: 10. Unfortunately, it is a lot more fun to get hung up on being naked. This essential detail of Adam’s knowledge is the descriptive word “afraid.”

Link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

In my humble opinion, owning a real book is better. It is a tad difficult to highlight important sentences on a computer screen.

 

[simpleas]

**No. **

Without Original Sin means no Original Sin.

No Original Sin means no Original Sin effects which includes the loss of Adam’s original state of grace, i.e., the state of being in relationship with God by sharing in His life. (CCC 355-357) In order to fully grasp the meaning of “without Original Sin” one needs to understand the amazing human nature which is in the image of God. Please do not confuse “in the image of God” with being God’s clone.

With the contracted state of no Original Sin, descendants of Adam by propagation, not imitation, would be in the state of original holiness and justice just as Adam was. CCC 404 has a very interesting comment on that subject.

Please note that the state of original holiness and justice is the state of Sanctifying Grace. While humans cannot escape their relationship of being a creature created by God; they can get rid of God’s Sanctifying Grace by freely committing mortal sin. Being in the state of Sanctifying Grace is the means of entering eternal heaven. Because Jesus, in His divinity, and in humankind’s place, atoned for Original Sin, Catholicism holds that all humans, in some manner known only to God, are called to share in God’s life. This being true means that God, on His part, does not exclude anyone from His presence. However, for any relationship to work, both parties have to be in agreement. Thus, God can offer His presence unconditionally. But, it is ourselves, who can refuse God’s presence. Our informed, free choice to refuse God’s offer is known as mortal sin. Mortal in a similar way to Genesis 2: 15-17.

Please go back to square one which is the different status between God and human.
Square two is human nature. Square three is the state of Adam’s human nature before his Original Sin which means that Adam was created **without **Original Sin.

So, how did Adam, as a person without Original Sin, know that he was in a true spiritual relationship with our Creator?

Even though our human nature is weakened compared to Adam’s nature before and thus without Original Sin, each of us is still a person like Adam. According to CCC 357, a person is not just something, but someone who is capable of self-knowledge and self-possession --that is just a start. Add the prayer Our Father which was taught years after human history began. While God forgives and continues to forgive, there is a huge difference between God forgiving Adam for his Original Sin and forgiving us who in no possible way can be considered the first human on earth.

The subsequent question, after Adam’s nature without original sin is understood, would apply to any person who is not the first person on earth.

However, this question becomes two questions. The first would be speculation as to how humans born without original sin but with a normal decomposing anatomy would enter heaven without bodily death. The second would be how would we, since none of us is the first human on earth, know that we have a true spiritual relationship with a transcendent eternal Creator.

The simple answer is that Baptism, by erasing the contracted state of Original Sin, gives us sanctifying grace which is the true spiritual relationship with God in that we share in God’s life. (CCC 356 & 405) At this point, it is important to recall CCC 1260 which says that the Holy Spirit is in charge of offering each person the possibility “of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery.”

Again, going back to the difference between us and God the Creator. It is apparent that we can never be equal with God which is the message first given to Adam by the tree symbolically named “The Knowledge of Good and Evil”. To understand the use of figurative language regarding becoming a god knowing about everything from good to evil, one has to read every word in CCC 396. It is also essential to read Genesis 2: 15-17. It should be obvious that Adam did not need to know every evil perfectly. What he did need to know was the evil of separating himself from God by the obvious sin of disobedience. There is a small detail, often missed, in Genesis 3: 10. Unfortunately, it is a lot more fun to get hung up on being naked. This essential detail of Adam’s knowledge is the descriptive word “afraid.”

Link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

In my humble opinion, owning a real book is better. It is a tad difficult to highlight important sentences on a computer screen.

Thank you for this break down, I have been reading the ccc quotes that you noted

I thought your previous question meant that we as a human race now, could only know we have a spiritual relationship with God because of the O.S Adam and Eve committed and not before, but then that doesn’t make sense, so please forgive me.

412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, “Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away.”

How do we understand this passage? God had given Adam grace so he was perfect, yet this says Christ has given us blessings better than what the demon’s had taken away…
better than what Adam had to begin with?
Adam before O.S never knew pain/suffering/death, we suffer all this now, in this life, so how do we understand the above quote?

Thanks

 

[grannymh]

Thank you for this break down, I have been reading the ccc quotes that you noted

I thought your previous question meant that we as a human race now, could only know we have a spiritual relationship with God because of the O.S Adam and Eve committed and not before, but then that doesn’t make sense, so please forgive me.

That is also a popular response to the question, “Without Original Sin, how could any person know that they have a true spiritual relationship with a transcendent, eternal Creator?” Thank you for bringing up that topic.

The difficulty is that Original Sin has many misunderstandings which do not make sense and that particular “because” one is one of them. The general [false] claim, with some variations, is that in order for humans to understand goodness of anything, including a spiritual relationship with God, they had to first experience evil, that is, they had to *first *eat the forbidden fruit.

412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, “Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away.”

How do we understand this passage? God had given Adam grace so he was perfect, yet this says Christ has given us blessings better than what the demon’s had taken away…
better than what Adam had to begin with?
Adam before O.S never knew pain/suffering/death, we suffer all this now, in this life, so how do we understand the above quote?

Thanks

One way to understand CCC 412 is to recall the difference between Adam and God. Adam as a human creature was as perfect as a human creature could be at the origin of humanity. Adam started out being peerless in his environment because not only was he material, he was also spiritual which enabled Him to be in true friendship with his Creator.

Adam knew the difference between himself and God. It would be normal for Adam to admire God as superior to himself. It would also be normal to wonder how that superiority would feel. Even perfect people can envy. Satan’s temptation included envy of God and consequently a form of jealously and consequently Adam chose himself over and against God. Adam laid aside his own mastery of self and instead freely chose to go against the requirements of his creaturely status and thus disobey God in the hope of being like God but not in accord with God’s commandment for obedience. (CCC 377 & 398)

This is my very humble yet somewhat reasonable guess. What St. Leo the Great and St. Thomas Aquinas had in mind was John 3: 16. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him might not perish but might have eternal life.” CCC 378 opening sentence is: “The sign of man’s familiarity with God is that God places him in the garden.” The garden has ancient meanings, all good ones. But the garden did not have the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist which is the superb blessing we have today.

 

[grannymh]

That is also a popular response to the question, “Without Original Sin, how could any person know that they have a true spiritual relationship with a transcendent, eternal Creator?” Thank you for bringing up that topic.

The difficulty is that Original Sin has many misunderstandings which do not make sense and that particular “because” one is one of them. The general [false] claim, with some variations, is that in order for humans to understand goodness of anything, including a spiritual relationship with God, they had to first experience evil, that is, they had to *first *eat the forbidden fruit.

One way to understand CCC 412 is to recall the difference between Adam and God. Adam as a human creature was as perfect as a human creature could be at the origin of humanity. Adam started out being peerless in his environment because not only was he material, he was also spiritual which enabled Him to be in true friendship with his Creator.

Adam knew the difference between himself and God. It would be normal for Adam to admire God as superior to himself. It would also be normal to wonder how that superiority would feel. Even perfect people can envy. Satan’s temptation included envy of God and consequently a form of jealously and consequently Adam chose himself over and against God. Adam laid aside his own mastery of self and instead freely chose to go against the requirements of his creaturely status and thus disobey God in the hope of being like God but not in accord with God’s commandment for obedience. (CCC 377 & 398)

This is my very humble yet somewhat reasonable answer to your question about CCC 412. What St. Leo the Great and St. Thomas Aquinas had in mind was John 3: 16. “For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him might not perish but might have eternal life.” CCC 378 opening sentence is: “The sign of man’s familiarity with God is that God places him in the garden.” The garden has ancient meanings, all good ones. But the garden did not have the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist which is the superb blessing we have today.