Original Sin

[simpleas]

“Our daily walk with Christ (why/how/where to be more spiritual)”
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6400774&postcount=2

Reading about all kinds of ideas and speculations about the simple Catholic doctrines regarding Original Sin, I now wonder if anyone has meditated on the fact that Adam had the capability of walking daily with God. (CCC 356)

If we are burdened with thoughts about how awful our human nature is – we should remind ourselves of Jesus’ love for us as we are. We should remind ourselves that the Sacrament of Reconciliation gives us graces going forward.

So far, I cannot find any evidence in the four Gospels that Original Sin radically perverted human nature per se so that it is naturally (in everyone) totally blind to goodness. Instead, I am learning about the Prodigal Son which was a recent Scripture reading at Sunday Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Obviously, Christ did not consider human nature radically perverted into some kind of sin machine without intellect and will.

Looking at the Gospels, also known as the Good News, we should be learning from Adam’s experience the importance of seeking Jesus Christ, True God and True Man. We should understand that our human nature, like Adam’s, is spiritual and that we should be seeking more spiritual encounters with God through the Holy Eucharist.

We know from Genesis 3: 15 and its important surrounding context that Adam was not abandoned. (CCC 410) We also know from Catholic teaching that our human nature was not totally destroyed by Original Sin. Human nature was good before Adam’s sin and human nature is still *good *after Adam’s sin even though it is now wounded. (CCC 405)

As spiritual beings, we need to raise our eyes up to Jesus, bloody, on the cross.

I tend to read the creation story without thinking about Christ, kind of placing myself back at that time when although there is reference to Christ it was not yet revealed, so I sort of forget

Some sin’s we are told separate us from God, and this maybe a burden to some people when they believe they are of good will, close to God etc yet how they live or what they do is sinful.
So we need to accept we have been wounded, because our nature isn’t purely evil nor is it purely good.
Christ is the one who helps us in our fall. We have to be able to forgive each other etc, can be hard in this world with so much war etc, but if we can over come this we will some day find our way back.
I hope so anyway!

 

[grannymh]

Sorry yes i used the tree again, and i don’t even believe it to be the actual cause of the sin, but as i don’t know what it was, temptation yes, and allowing trust in God to die in their hearts, but the out come of some pure evil act that destroyed Adam and Eve’s pure good relationship with God i have no idea.

Below is paragraph 396, Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition. Please do not hesitate to ask questions.

One of the many key sentences is that Adam is a spiritual creature.

Whether we realize it or not, our own Catholic spirituality is being tested by the secular world around us. A popular example is the valid question in the opening post of this thread.

**CCC 396 **God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: “for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.” The “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

 

[grannymh]

I tend to read the creation story without thinking about Christ, kind of placing myself back at that time when although there is reference to Christ it was not yet revealed, so I sort of forget

May I gently point out that it is nearly impossible to understand the first three chapters of Genesis without understanding Jesus Christ and His Catholic Church. We cannot change the Revelation of Original Sin (as so many people are trying to do) without undermining the divine mystery of Christ. When we start with Jesus, it is possible to go back to the beginning of human history and there find the meaning(s) of our own spiritual human nature as it exists now.

 

[OneSheep]

I tend to flutter around to hear how other’s describe or interpret the creation story, can one story be the ultimate answer of our creation…

When you say about the idea that “we” can become like God, are you speaking of us now as human beings or Adam?

Either. Look at the popularity of Superhero movies, or any movie depicting someone with superpowers.

I wouldn’t want to be like God, although in a way I would, because he is all pure and holy, and that is one of our goal’s in this life to achieve. But as for power etc, I’d leave that to him as I think he’d know best!

That is your conscience talking, modulating your desire for power. Quite natural. We have all experienced being power-hungry, and we have all been around people who are power-hungry.

I can not image why Adam would want to be like God, because I have never been what Adam once was before the sin. How can we really understand something which we have never experienced. Here i am talking about Adam’s complete union with God, and not what i experience when I feel close to God.

I refer again to the popularity of movies about people with super powers. In addition, Adam wanted what someone else (God) had. Would you say that this wanting what someone else has, this coveting, comes from satan?

We are sinners and so now have a different relationship with God to the one Adam had once. What some people consider a sin others do not.
I think most sin’s are of the devil, war, murder. But when can we tell if our own sin’s are from the devil, or just our own doing? Not sure if I even understand what I just said!

There you go again, amazing me with your statements. Yes, some people do consider a sin that others do not. This is not “relativism”, this is realism. Relativism is when we say “I don’t think its a sin, so it isn’t” when the vast majority of us say that it is, and show why it is. Well, I may take that back a little. Even if the vast majority were to say that convenience abortion is not a sin, it is still a sin. The vast majority can be ignorant…

Well, let’s go back to the creation scene, shall we? What did Adam do that we can attribute to satan? Have we eliminated the desire (appetite) for power, and the imagination to come up with an infinite number of ideas?

 

[simpleas]

May I gently point out that it is nearly impossible to understand the first three chapters of Genesis without understanding Jesus Christ and His Catholic Church. We cannot change the Revelation of Original Sin (as so many people are trying to do) without undermining the divine mystery of Christ. When we start with Jesus, it is possible to go back to the beginning of human history and there find the meaning(s) of our own spiritual human nature as it exists now.

That’s fine, I understand this, but what I have tended to do over these past couple of months, is( and i hope noone finds this disrepectful) to stop thinking of Christ and look into what the jewish writers were trying to tell people of that time. I am trying also to understand why the jewish people believe the Torah as the word of God, which foretold the coming of Christ, yet some did not believe when that time finally came. They believed all the other prophets, but do not accept Christ as God like we do.
Hope I’ve explained myself.

 

[simpleas]

Either. Look at the popularity of Superhero movies, or any movie depicting someone with superpowers.

That is your conscience talking, modulating your desire for power. Quite natural. We have all experienced being power-hungry, and we have all been around people who are power-hungry.

I refer again to the popularity of movies about people with super powers. In addition, Adam wanted what someone else (God) had. Would you say that this wanting what someone else has, this coveting, comes from satan?

There you go again, amazing me with your statements. Yes, some people do consider a sin that others do not. This is not “relativism”, this is realism. Relativism is when we say “I don’t think its a sin, so it isn’t” when the vast majority of us say that it is, and show why it is. Well, I may take that back a little. Even if the vast majority were to say that convenience abortion is not a sin, it is still a sin. The vast majority can be ignorant…

Well, let’s go back to the creation scene, shall we? What did Adam do that we can attribute to satan? Have we eliminated the desire (appetite) for power, and the imagination to come up with an infinite number of ideas?

I can see what you mean about superpowers in movies, With great power, comes great responsibility!
Love spiderman, superman, etc etc. But we know this is fiction, noone will ever have those powers unless God gives it to them freely, could you imagine that? Ha.
But if someone could steal some power from God i’ve know doubt they would try!

Maybe I should rephase what I said about being like God, I wouldn’t what to be God, (all powerful/knowing with the ability to control what will happen to the human race) but to be in union of love with him as it was in the beginning. I’m not a person who needs to be incharge in situation’s, I’m more likely to work behind the sences.

I think I would say the wanting of power came from satan. The way I can make some sense of it is, adam had all he wanted in the garden, to me it sounds just like what heaven would be like, no pain etc, knowing God, at peace, that sort of thing.
So satan, wanting to destroy this bond, showed Adam what he could have if he would disobey God just once and he could have and know all that God had. The biggest lie ever.

 

[grannymh]

That’s fine, I understand this, but what I have tended to do over these past couple of months, is( and i hope noone finds this disrepectful) to stop thinking of Christ and look into what the jewish writers were trying to tell people of that time. I am trying also to understand why the jewish people believe the Torah as the word of God, which foretold the coming of Christ, yet some did not believe when that time finally came. They believed all the other prophets, but do not accept Christ as God like we do.
Hope I’ve explained myself.

Your pursuit is commendable.

 

[OneSheep]

I think I would say the wanting of power came from satan. The way I can make some sense of it is, adam had all he wanted in the garden, to me it sounds just like what heaven would be like, no pain etc, knowing God, at peace, that sort of thing.
So satan, wanting to destroy this bond, showed Adam what he could have if he would disobey God just once and he could have and know all that God had. The biggest lie ever.

Well… Let us examine a little the desire for power. Some call it the desire to be in control. Others call it dominance behavior.

Biologically speaking, most animal and bird species exhibit dominance behavior. They do so in order to win out in competition for mates. In addition, among social species like chimps and baboons, there is a hierarchy, a pecking order. Typically, the individuals at the top of the pecking order raise more offspring to adulthood. So, the desire for dominance or power or control serves them well, and is selected for in evolving organisms. Did satan give them this desire?

Desire to be in control has been vital for our species, any species. At times, interspecies competition for resources can be fierce, and the species which is more submissive or compliant loses out. So, are you sure that this desire comes from satan? Are you saying that satan cares about our wellbeing?

As was already mentioned in this thread, in Catholic theology, the “appetites” in themselves are good. One of our appetites is the desire for power. Do you resent the desire for power? Very common. Quite naturally, we resent our desire for power.

 

[OneSheep]

May I gently point out that it is nearly impossible to understand the first three chapters of Genesis without understanding Jesus Christ and His Catholic Church. We cannot change the Revelation of Original Sin (as so many people are trying to do) without undermining the divine mystery of Christ. When we start with Jesus, it is possible to go back to the beginning of human history and there find the meaning(s) of our own spiritual human nature as it exists now.

You might be interested in this article:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

Exerpt:

Jewish theologians are divided in regard to the cause of what is called “original sin”. Some teach that it was due to Adam’s yielding to temptation in eating of the forbidden fruit and has been inherited by his descendants; the majority, however, do not hold Adam responsible for the sins of humanity.[5] The doctrine of “inherited sin” is not found in most of mainstream Judaism. Although some in Orthodox Judaism place blame on Adam for overall corruption of the world, and though there were some Jewish teachers in Talmudic times who believed that death was a punishment brought upon humanity on account of Adam’s sin, that is not the dominant view in most of Judaism today. Modern Judaism generally teaches that humans are born sin-free and untainted, and choose to sin later and bring suffering to themselves.[6][7] The concept of inherited sin is also not found in Islam.[8][9] Depending on how it is defined, original sin is also rejected by some Christian theologies.

Are you saying that all these others do not understand the first three chapters of Genesis? Perhaps they have a different understanding, no?

Just out of curiosity - How is it going, forgiving Adam? Any roadblocks?

 

[grannymh]

You might be interested in this article:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

Exerpt:

Jewish theologians are divided in regard to the cause of what is called “original sin”. Some teach that it was due to Adam’s yielding to temptation in eating of the forbidden fruit and has been inherited by his descendants; the majority, however, do not hold Adam responsible for the sins of humanity.[5] The doctrine of “inherited sin” is not found in most of mainstream Judaism. Although some in Orthodox Judaism place blame on Adam for overall corruption of the world, and though there were some Jewish teachers in Talmudic times who believed that death was a punishment brought upon humanity on account of Adam’s sin, that is not the dominant view in most of Judaism today. Modern Judaism generally teaches that humans are born sin-free and untainted, and choose to sin later and bring suffering to themselves.[6][7] The concept of inherited sin is also not found in Islam.[8][9] Depending on how it is defined, original sin is also rejected by some Christian theologies.

Are you saying that all these others do not understand the first three chapters of Genesis? Perhaps they have a different understanding, no?

I do not use a boat for traveling in the desert.

 

[OneSheep]

I do not use a boat for traveling in the desert.

 

[simpleas]

Well… Let us examine a little the desire for power. Some call it the desire to be in control. Others call it dominance behavior.

Biologically speaking, most animal and bird species exhibit dominance behavior. They do so in order to win out in competition for mates. In addition, among social species like chimps and baboons, there is a hierarchy, a pecking order. Typically, the individuals at the top of the pecking order raise more offspring to adulthood. So, the desire for dominance or power or control serves them well, and is selected for in evolving organisms. Did satan give them this desire?

Desire to be in control has been vital for our species, any species. At times, interspecies competition for resources can be fierce, and the species which is more submissive or compliant loses out. So, are you sure that this desire comes from satan? Are you saying that satan cares about our wellbeing?

As was already mentioned in this thread, in Catholic theology, the “appetites” in themselves are good. One of our appetites is the desire for power. Do you resent the desire for power? Very common. Quite naturally, we resent our desire for power.

I am not sure of anything!
I would think that the desire may have already been there, as Adam was only human, and God giving him a warning not to eat of the tree suggest’s to me God knew he would fall at some point.
Satan took advantage of this human weakness and tempted them.
Although if we believe all was so perfect in the garden, then how would something like this happen?

 

[simpleas]

You might be interested in this article:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_sin

Exerpt:

Jewish theologians are divided in regard to the cause of what is called “original sin”. Some teach that it was due to Adam’s yielding to temptation in eating of the forbidden fruit and has been inherited by his descendants; the majority, however, do not hold Adam responsible for the sins of humanity.[5] The doctrine of “inherited sin” is not found in most of mainstream Judaism. Although some in Orthodox Judaism place blame on Adam for overall corruption of the world, and though there were some Jewish teachers in Talmudic times who believed that death was a punishment brought upon humanity on account of Adam’s sin, that is not the dominant view in most of Judaism today. Modern Judaism generally teaches that humans are born sin-free and untainted, and choose to sin later and bring suffering to themselves.[6][7] The concept of inherited sin is also not found in Islam.[8][9] Depending on how it is defined, original sin is also rejected by some Christian theologies.

Are you saying that all these others do not understand the first three chapters of Genesis? Perhaps they have a different understanding, no?

Just out of curiosity - How is it going, forgiving Adam? Any roadblocks?

Do you forgive Adam and Eve…just wondered?

 

[grannymh]

Going back over this thread, there are a number of speculations about the Catholic teachings on Original Sin. While anyone and their brother can speculate – God bless the creative imagination – it is important to go back to the actual teachings of the Catholic Church. Doing this will help us understand our own spirituality.

For example, there is this speculation/question of multiple original sins. Can you give an example of one of our “original sins”, that is, the innate compulsions we are born with and naturally resent? This speculation/question probably dates to the Protestant Reformation. While we humans do have the capacity to freely think about sins and can freely choose some which fit with our desires, it can be a tad confusing to consider our personal sins as our “original sins” when it is clear Catholic teaching that the Original Sin took place before we were born. There is a difference between being born in a state of personal perpetual inherent sin and being born in the contracted (by propagation) state of Original Sin which state can be erased because it is not inherent.

While Catholic teaching is big on forgiveness, it can be a tad confusing when Jesus’ actions – for example when He hung bloody on the cross – are part of an innocent speculation. For example His words: “Forgive them, for they know not what they do” cannot be applied to Adam and Eve. There is the fact that Jesus opened the gates of heaven for all people, including Adam and Eve, but that is not enough evidence to eliminate the fact that Adam knew what he was doing and its consequences and thus eliminate the real Original Sin.

Personally, I appreciate learning about the Jewish traditions, just as I appreciate learning about other Christian Faiths along with learning about non-Christian Faiths. However, it would be a tad confusing to substitute other Faith teachings or personal speculations for actual Catholic doctrines. Trying to figure out our spirituality, since we are spiritual beings, that is, we have a God-created spiritual soul, we need to choose one Faith to go by. It can be a tad confusing when we are faced with all kinds of interesting speculations, some, not all, of which ultimately lead to a denial of some of the Catholic doctrines about Original Sin and our own spirituality. In fact, some speculations can lead us to meditating on the real relationship between the Creator and we the creatures with our wounded human nature.

What is a practical way to deal with other Faith teachings and with interesting speculations?

For people interested in Catholicism, it is important to learn actual Catholic doctrines so that there is a base for differentiating between Divine Revelation and what some, not all, people propose. Divine Revelation trumps.

Ignoring Catholic doctrines by substituting other concepts would be like using a boat for traveling in a desert. A boat can be good on water. However, when one is interested in spirituality, the Catholic Church would be the better vehicle for traveling through life.

 

[simpleas]

Going back over this thread, there are a number of speculations about the Catholic teachings on Original Sin. While anyone and their brother can speculate – God bless the creative imagination – it is important to go back to the actual teachings of the Catholic Church. Doing this will help us understand our own spirituality.

For example, there is this speculation/question of multiple original sins. Can you give an example of one of our “original sins”, that is, the innate compulsions we are born with and naturally resent? This speculation/question probably dates to the Protestant Reformation. While we humans do have the capacity to freely think about sins and can freely choose some which fit with our desires, it can be a tad confusing to consider our personal sins as our “original sins” when it is clear Catholic teaching that the Original Sin took place before we were born. There is a difference between being born in a state of personal perpetual inherent sin and being born in the contracted (by propagation) state of Original Sin which state can be erased because it is not inherent.

While Catholic teaching is big on forgiveness, it can be a tad confusing when Jesus’ actions – for example when He hung bloody on the cross – are part of an innocent speculation. For example His words: “Forgive them, for they know not what they do” cannot be applied to Adam and Eve. There is the fact that Jesus opened the gates of heaven for all people, including Adam and Eve, but that is not enough evidence to eliminate the fact that Adam knew what he was doing and its consequences and thus eliminate the real Original Sin.

Personally, I appreciate learning about the Jewish traditions, just as I appreciate learning about other Christian Faiths along with learning about non-Christian Faiths. However, it would be a tad confusing to substitute other Faith teachings or personal speculations for actual Catholic doctrines. Trying to figure out our spirituality, since we are spiritual beings, that is, we have a God-created spiritual soul, we need to choose one Faith to go by. It can be a tad confusing when we are faced with all kinds of interesting speculations, some, not all, of which ultimately lead to a denial of some of the Catholic doctrines about Original Sin and our own spirituality. In fact, some speculations can lead us to meditating on the real relationship between the Creator and we the creatures with our wounded human nature.

What is a practical way to deal with other Faith teachings and with interesting speculations?

For people interested in Catholicism, it is important to learn actual Catholic doctrines so that there is a base for differentiating between Divine Revelation and what some, not all, people propose. Divine Revelation trumps.

Ignoring Catholic doctrines by substituting other concepts would be like using a boat for traveling in a desert. A boat can be good on water. However, when one is interested in spirituality, the Catholic Church would be the better vehicle for traveling through life.

Here I go again on my quest to understand

O.S is the deprivation of original holiness and justice…it is a sin which we have contracted not committed, and it is transmitted to us from Adam and Eve, not by act but by natural reproduction.
So were are all born sinful.

How do we then understand the meaning of our baptism, I understand it that when we are born, we are without original justice and holiness, we are buried/die in christ at baptism, then brought to new life by the waters and so O.S is wiped away.
After baptism we can then choose to be sinful or holy.
Do we only choose to sin through our free will?
If we have had O.S wiped away during baptism, why is it almost so easy to sin?
As a child growing up, can we really understand what is happening, what we should be etc, were as if we are adults when we are baptised, we have more knowledge and understanding of what this great sacrament is all about.

 

[OneSheep]

I am not sure of anything!
I would think that the desire may have already been there, as Adam was only human, and God giving him a warning not to eat of the tree suggest’s to me God knew he would fall at some point.

We do believe that God is omniscient, or all-knowing. It seems to me that believing in an all-knowing God trumps the accuracy of the creation story. For example, why would God create a being that He knew He would condemn? Jesus showed us that God does not condemn us, which is truly the opposite of the creation story.

Yes, the desire was already there, and as St. Thomas Aquinas said, the appetites are all good. The appetite is not a weakness, it is a strength. Our desire for power has helped us survive.

Satan took advantage of this human weakness and tempted them.

Although if we believe all was so perfect in the garden, then how would something like this happen?

So, back to what we can attribute to Satan. It sounds like you are suggesting that the creation story is accurate, that the notion to defy God came from Satan. I am still advocating the idea that the creation story was an attempt to explain the human condition, an attempt that also served to encourage the Israelites to respect authority.

Can we return to the question? So, where does defiance come from? There is no doubt that we humans have a big problem with defiance, and those of us in authority (like those who wrote the creation story, and every parent, generally) find that defiance and rebellion are a big pain. We naturally condemn defiance, and attribute defiance to an evil source. That is the working of our healthy consciences.

We can all think of instances when we defied authority. Why did we do so? What impels us from within to defy our parents or the president or other political figures? Even when our parents are nice to us, we defy them. Why do we do this? Is there a way that we can understand our capacity to defy without concluding that there is something to condemn?

There is more to consider. Not only did the notion to defy occur, but in addition Adam and Eve did not consider what God wanted. All of us have, at times, failed to consider the needs or wants of others when we are caught up in what we are trying to gain for ourselves. We become blinded to the needs of others. We call this “selfishness” and condemn it, according to the healthy working of our conscience. Why does such blindness happen? Again, is there a way we can understand our mechanical blindness without concluding that there is something to condemn?

 

[OneSheep]

Going back over this thread, there are a number of speculations about the Catholic teachings on Original Sin. While anyone and their brother can speculate – God bless the creative imagination – it is important to go back to the actual teachings of the Catholic Church. Doing this will help us understand our own spirituality.

A person once asked the priest who conducted our Bible study, “are we to take the Bible literally?” He answered, “yes, we are to take the Bible literally, unless there appears to be a contradiction.” The actions of God in the creation story, where God condemns rather than forgives, is a contradiction with the God that Jesus showed us.

For example, there is this speculation/question of multiple original sins. Can you give an example of one of our “original sins”, that is, the innate compulsions we are born with and naturally resent? This speculation/question probably dates to the Protestant Reformation. While we humans do have the capacity to freely think about sins and can freely choose some which fit with our desires, it can be a tad confusing to consider our personal sins as our “original sins” when it is clear Catholic teaching that the Original Sin took place before we were born. There is a difference between being born in a state of personal perpetual inherent sin and being born in the contracted (by propagation) state of Original Sin which state can be erased because it is not inherent.

As far as “multiple” original sins, this is me trying to make sense out of the creation story. We are in need of redemption, no doubt. We do really bad stuff to each other. Is there an original condition that results in our sin? Yes, the seven deadlies are all part of our original condition. Our desire for control, territory, and dominance are innate. Our desire to have something that someone else has is innate. Our desire for sex is innate. Our desire for status, our capacity for anger, and desire to punish what we see as wrongdoing are innate. Our capacity to become addicted is innate. Our capacity for sloth (which can be broken into several categories) is innate. Our capacity for blindness is innate.

All of these appetites and capacities have purposes, but they get us into trouble with one another. Jesus gives us the tools to deal with them. I lump all of these aspects of our nature to make sense out of the whole idea of original sin. I am most certainly not schooled in Protestant Reformation.

While Catholic teaching is big on forgiveness, it can be a tad confusing when Jesus’ actions – for example when He hung bloody on the cross – are part of an innocent speculation. For example His words: “Forgive them, for they know not what they do” cannot be applied to Adam and Eve. There is the fact that Jesus opened

the gates of heaven for all people, including Adam and Eve, but that is not enough evidence to eliminate the fact that Adam knew what he was doing and its consequences and thus eliminate the real Original Sin.

Well, here is an example of a contradiction, then, because here is what Jesus said:

Mark 11:25

New International Version (NIV)

25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”

If you do not hold anything against A & E, then it is not an issue.

Personally, I appreciate learning about the Jewish traditions, just as I appreciate learning about other Christian Faiths along with learning about non-Christian Faiths. However, it would be a tad confusing to substitute other Faith teachings or personal speculations for actual Catholic doctrines. Trying to figure out our spirituality, since we are spiritual beings, that is, we have a God-created spiritual soul, we need to choose one Faith to go by. It can be a tad confusing when we are faced with all kinds of interesting speculations, some, not all, of which ultimately lead to a denial of some of the Catholic doctrines about Original Sin and our own spirituality. In fact, some speculations can lead us to meditating on the real relationship between the Creator and we the creatures with our wounded human nature.

What is a practical way to deal with other Faith teachings and with interesting speculations?

For people interested in Catholicism, it is important to learn actual Catholic doctrines so that there is a base for differentiating between Divine Revelation and what some, not all, people propose. Divine Revelation trumps.

Ignoring Catholic doctrines by substituting other concepts would be like using a boat for traveling in a desert. A boat can be good on water. However, when one is interested in spirituality, the Catholic Church would be the better vehicle for traveling through life.

I put in the quote from Wikipedia to show you that it is not impossible to understand the creation story in other ways. If Catholic doctrine as it stands serves you well and answers all of your questions, then that is good. For me, and many others, it has become important to iron out all of the contradictions. The orthodoxy was fine when I was younger, but as my relationship with Love has continued, I have had to do some redefining and clarifications in order to make sense of it all. I still love my Church, and I am quite devoted to loving and serving God.

The vehicle has to make sense to us, in light of an unconditionally loving God.

 

[fhansen]

Here I go again on my quest to understand

O.S is the deprivation of original holiness and justice…it is a sin which we have contracted not committed, and it is transmitted to us from Adam and Eve, not by act but by natural reproduction.
So were are all born sinful.

How do we then understand the meaning of our baptism, I understand it that when we are born, we are without original justice and holiness, we are buried/die in christ at baptism, then brought to new life by the waters and so O.S is wiped away.
After baptism we can then choose to be sinful or holy.
Do we only choose to sin through our free will?
If we have had O.S wiped away during baptism, why is it almost so easy to sin?
As a child growing up, can we really understand what is happening, what we should be etc, were as if we are adults when we are baptised, we have more knowledge and understanding of what this great sacrament is all about.

Adam was created without OS, and yet he sinned. We’re Adam in the sense of the corporate relationship between all humans. We, each of us, struggle with his nature-the nature we inherit: fallen, weak, disordered, wounded, and yet still free, free enough to be morally responsible, to “fight the good fight”, as St Paul says, with the help of grace, each of us varying in our levels of culpability depending on such things as our backgrounds, and then on the time, opportunities, revelation, and grace received-and what we do with it. As stated previously, God, for His purposes, created His universe in a “state of journeying” to perfection, and this journey includes the creation, fall, and subsequent history of mankind to this date.

 

[grannymh]

A person once asked the priest who conducted our Bible study, “are we to take the Bible literally?” He answered, “yes, we are to take the Bible literally, unless there appears to be a contradiction.” The actions of God in the creation story, where God condemns rather than forgives, is a contradiction with the God that Jesus showed us.

As I respectfully pointed out at the end of post 73,
“Ignoring Catholic doctrines by substituting other concepts would be like using a boat for traveling in a desert. A boat can be good on water. However, when one is interested in spirituality, the Catholic Church would be the better vehicle for traveling through life.”
Would you and/or others be so kind as to complete this sentence from the beginning of post 76 so that it is apparent which Catholic doctrine is being referred to. The missing information are the questions in red. Thank you in advance.
“A person once asked the priest who conducted our Bible study, “are we to take the Bible literally?” He answered, “yes, we are to take the Bible literally, unless there appears to be a contradiction.” The actions of God in the creation story, where God condemns…who? to what? for how long? rather than forgives, is a contradiction with the God that Jesus showed us.”

One of the reasons, I consider the Catholic Church as the best vehicle for traveling through life is that it has full-baked doctrines.

 

[simpleas]

We do believe that God is omniscient, or all-knowing. It seems to me that believing in an all-knowing God trumps the accuracy of the creation story. For example, why would God create a being that He knew He would condemn? Jesus showed us that God does not condemn us, which is truly the opposite of the creation story.

Yes, the desire was already there, and as St. Thomas Aquinas said, the appetites are all good. The appetite is not a weakness, it is a strength. Our desire for power has helped us survive.

So, back to what we can attribute to Satan. It sounds like you are suggesting that the creation story is accurate, that the notion to defy God came from Satan. I am still advocating the idea that the creation story was an attempt to explain the human condition, an attempt that also served to encourage the Israelites to respect authority.

Can we return to the question? So, where does defiance come from? There is no doubt that we humans have a big problem with defiance, and those of us in authority (like those who wrote the creation story, and every parent, generally) find that defiance and rebellion are a big pain. We naturally condemn defiance, and attribute defiance to an evil source. That is the working of our healthy consciences.

We can all think of instances when we defied authority. Why did we do so? What impels us from within to defy our parents or the president or other political figures? Even when our parents are nice to us, we defy them. Why do we do this? Is there a way that we can understand our capacity to defy without concluding that there is something to condemn?

There is more to consider. Not only did the notion to defy occur, but in addition Adam and Eve did not consider what God wanted. All of us have, at times, failed to consider the needs or wants of others when we are caught up in what we are trying to gain for ourselves. We become blinded to the needs of others. We call this “selfishness” and condemn it, according to the healthy working of our conscience. Why does such blindness happen? Again, is there a way we can understand our mechanical blindness without concluding that there is something to condemn?

Ok i’ll try to answer some of your question’s, but i am not brilliant at this.

I don’t think we are mechanically blind when choosing to make an informed decision, because once we reach an age of understanding what is considered right or wrong, we will know what the consequence’s will be by word or deed.

Why we chose to do that which is wrong, I don’t know, it may be as you say defiance. When we are told not to do or go somewhere which we really want to, we can become defiant and do just as we please, regardless of the outcome, which we most likely will be aware of.
Some maybe regretful, some not, I suppose that’s due to the individual’s conscience. Like some people find it easy to lie and don’t feel any regret, and others can’t lie at all, even a tiny white lie!

Yes I do think the story is accurate with regards to, the one God, the first parents, and satan.
Satan being the one who convinced Adam and Eve to disobey.
I’m unsure and i don’t know if there is proof that Adam and Eve knew the consequence of their action. I mean if they fully understood what death meant for them, and others after them would they have turned their back on satan?

Well as we know they didn’t, and here we are.

Isn’t part of the O.S what we are now as humans? Its past on to us by birth, so we are weakened in both body and soul?
But through Christ we will be saved.

I feel sorry for Adam and Eve, might sound mad, but even if they did or didn’t know what would become of the human race, they had to live with what they had done and see the consequence’s in their own family etc. How sad that must have been.

I’m trying to understand how we know Jesus as the forgiver of all sin’s, yet in the beginning it didn’t seem to be that way, God seem to favorite (if thats the right word) some people as they were more rightous than other’s, but Jesus tells us different. And thank God for him!!

Oh, you never answered my question…have you forgiven Adam and Eve?