Original Sin

[BobCatholic]

“Unjust” is your conscience talking again. My conscience says the same thing.

So if it is “my conscience” talking, there is no objective standard to determine if it is just to create someone imperfect and then punish them for their imperfection?

What does the son want?

This son wants to have a relationship with mom without having to worry profusely about being rejected for being imperfect, when mom created him imperfect in the first place. But the imperfection causes mom to push the son away and reject him. And the mom doesn’t do anything to help overcome the imperfection or heal the imperfection.

 

[simpleas]

Of course we are in a battle between good and evil. Every day we struggle to inform our conscience, to discern good from evil, to make the best moral choices and to get rid of sin - that’s the beauty and the difficulty of our God given freedom. But if we get used to think that “the devil deceived me and made me do it” and live with the fear that our good intentions can be undermined and hijacked anytime by an unknown evil force, this can lead us to desperation. Or to a superstitious mindset that leads us to suspect not only ourselves or other people of being under demonic influence, but even the water that we drink or a black cat that appears in a cemetery or in a dream.

Perhaps the fear of the devil is useful for many people (as it was to myself) as a tool to make them more vigilant, to increase their awareness that they are prone to make mistakes - if it’s so, more power to them! I only say that we already have plenty of troubles with ourselves, without adding another one. I don’t know if the devil exists or not, beyond his ancient function as a personification of our horror towards evil (it’s because it’s difficult for me to think of a being who is truly separated from God - it’s like in a polytheistic world with deities fighting against each other, above the heads of the mortal men), but if he exists, I’m afraid he’s way, way overrated.

Thanks for explaining.

 

[vames]

There is a lot of talk about God forgiving unconditionally. Here is a quick example of God setting a condition for forgiveness.

Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.”’ Luke 23:34

“Not knowing what they do” sure sounds like a condition applied to persons at the time of the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

This is not a condition, but a premise.

A parent can decide to forgive his child ONLY IF the child will do something in exchange. Imagine the father of the prodigal son saying: “I will receive you back in my house only if you will apologize and do all the household works for a month, instead of your older brother. You can’t come back after all this time as if nothing happened. This is what you deserve for harming me”.

The same parent can decide to forgive his child without asking him to do anything, BECAUSE his love is stronger than the necessity to take revenge and BECAUSE this kind of love understands that the child is the one who is or will be eventually harmed by that mistake, and that if the child had anticipated that harm, if he had known, he wouldn’t have made it. This is the parable of the prodigal son. 1 Cor 13: “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.”

 

[grannymh]

hmmm. So are you saying that when Jesus said, “forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing” He was only referring to a certain part of the crowd?

That sounds reasonable.

Please, grannymh, listen to what I am saying. I am not saying “to whatever”. Does your conscience ever tell you that you are a bad person? That you are stupid, worthless, lazy, greedy, overbearing, selfish, etc.etc.? These are statements of negativity, which are condemnations. Our normal consciences do this.

I know when I am a bad person as a result of some chosen bad action, thought, or inaction. I knew from the time I entered kindergarten that I could be stupid at times, but never worthless. As for being lazy, I am the queen of procrastination. Outside of a passion for ice cream and dark chocolate, I do not consider myself greedy. Me overbearing? While I often rush in where angels fear to tread, I wouldn’t consider that overbearing. Actually, while working, when I did enter places where angels fear to tread, I tiptoed. Selfish, yes when I find myself not being as generous as I should. And there are lots of etc., etc. No one will call me perfect.

My conscience never calls me names – that would be a day late and a dollar short.

My conscience gets into the act as soon as my intellect poses a possible action, thought, or inaction on my part. My conscience is a first responder when it comes to judging between right and wrong. My conscience has the Ten Commandments as a base plus all the nitty-gritty needed when someone wants to know God, love God, serve God, and be happy with Him in eternity. Thank heaven, we have the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

From granny’s post 330.
That opinion says that the conscience is a function of the intellect apprehending the essence of some act in terms of its relationship to the true end of man. It is simply the intellectual act or** trained ability to judge between right or wrong**. A properly informed conscience is in accord with the commandments of God.

As I have said before, I do not really have a problem with that opinion. “Training” includes our emotional (name removed by moderator)ut to the conscience. Our conscience includes emotional triggers (reactions) to things we experience. For an explanation of how or conscience somewhat enslaves us (for the most part, the conscience is great!) see this post:

Please do not tell your conscience where my conscience lives. The last thing I need are emotional triggers. Objective discernment is a lot simpler than subjective thinking when it comes to determining if a particular action, thought, or inaction is right or wrong.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11278552&highlight=somewhat+enslaving#post11278552

You didn’t respond to that one, and I don’t expect you will respond to it this time either. It is a little disappointing, grannymh, I give you plenty of counterpoints to your positions, and you very rarely respond.

I am also the queen of cherry pickers. I am satisfied with the description of conscience which I have been posting.

Please, grannymh, do not categorize me with the “many” who give human examples to try to explain God.

In my humble opinion, that would be in another forum. As I recall, I was referring to God’s response to Adam’s Original Sin.

I am not the same person as the past examples. You assumed I did not believe in an Adam, you assumed many other things.

That is an interesting conclusion about my assumptions.

I am trying to find away to actually discuss this with you personally, not an impersonal book. So, can you please answer the question? It is not a hard question, it is the beginning of an investigation, the same path that St. Augustine took. Are you afraid? Why are you avoiding the question? Do not be afraid.

What did the son want, in the scenario I presented? Why did he disobey?

In this forum, I have the right to avoid any question and I do not need to claim the fifth.

You won’t find this answer in the CCC. Is that all you can do, present the CCC?

As readers may have noticed, in addition to the* CCC*, I like to present the first three chapters of Genesis, John 3: 16, Romans 5: 12-21 when appropriate and occasionally chapter 14 of the Gospel of John.

Seek in your past, grannymh. Seek in your mind. Seek in your conscience. Seek in your heart. Jesus asks us to seek. Do not turn down this opportunity.

Good advice. However, I consider it in the privacy of my soul.

 

[OneSheep]

Can i jump in on this post

I don’t think i am a bad person as such, yes i have faults and failings as the next person has. I can call myself stupid for not doing something correctly etc so we do correct ourselves all the time.

Me too. I am not talking about permanent conditions. I am saying that if we do something against our conscience, our conscience has some choice words for us. We feel guilty. If we behave against our conscience, the conscience lets us have it. If we behave the way our conscience tells us to, we feel good about ourselves. Our conscience manipulates us into good behavior. It works!

At church we admit to ourselves and others that we are unworthy of God.
Just before communion we say " Lord i am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed"
So of course we are asking for Gods healing of our soul before we receive, but we are also admitting that we are unworthy in Gods eyes.

To me, nobody is unworthy in God’s eyes. However, the posture of humility is the posture of repentance. I say it to people all the time. “Don’t make an extra effort for me”, I say. I try to be as accommodating as possible. These are words of submission, a bow. I am worthy, but the words are those of respect, consideration, and accommodation. Jesus proves to us, from the cross, that we are worthy.

 

[OneSheep]

So if it is “my conscience” talking, there is no objective standard to determine if it is just to create someone imperfect and then punish them for their imperfection?

There is, I believe a general, objective, human conscience. However, our language and experience variations tweak it a little. Your conscience may say “you’re stupid” and mine not. See what I’m saying? I’m not saying that there isn’t such thing as a perfect conscience, I am saying that none of us has one. So, in that sense, we are “imperfect”. Also, if ignorance is an “imperfection”, then we are also imperfect. Loveable, and beautiful, but imperfect. I use “imperfect” there objectively, not with negative tone. I am not using “imperfect” to criticize the human.

This son wants to have a relationship with mom without having to worry profusely about being rejected for being imperfect, when mom created him imperfect in the first place. But the imperfection causes mom to push the son away and reject him. And the mom doesn’t do anything to help overcome the imperfection or heal the imperfection.

It sounds like the son longs for an unconditionally loving relationship with his mom.

If the “Mom” is our conscience, its not going to happen. If the “Mom” is God, the relationship is already there, and the son doesn’t know it (for good reason, too!)

Are there other options, too, as far as what the son wants? I can think of several. I think it is really helpful to think of the “best cases”, and then carefully consider the “worst cases”.

 

[OneSheep]

My quote:

So are you saying that when Jesus said, “forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing” He was only referring to a certain part of the crowd?

That sounds reasonable.

Well, what is good for the gander is what’s good for the goose, I suppose. It comes down to relationship, grannymh. Does the God you know forgive you no matter what? I guess not. Do you see what I mean? To you, it doesn’t make sense that God forgives unconditionally because, from what you have indicated, you do not forgive others unconditionally.

I withhold the temptation to give you a big, demeaning lecture about “fluff”.

Let me interject here something from Mark. It is not for you, because you have already heard it and did not respond last time:

Mark 11:25 NIV
New International Version
And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins. "

Readers: even though grannymh would find it “reasonable” to say that Jesus did not mean “anyone”, that He meant “anyone who repents, asks for forgiveness, (or what have you)” I want you to know that God asks us to love everyone, and that forgiveness, being an act of love, is what God does for everyone. God loves you no matter what you say, what you do, or what you think. God loves you even if you crucify Him. God loves you and forgives you even if you don’t forgive, but you will not completely know His forgiveness until you forgive anyone, with no exception, that you hold something against. This is the cathechesis I received, and I confidently stand by these words, because this is also the God, the Jesus, I know.

Grannymh, sorry about my “cherry picking”. I (my conscience) consider it rude to not answer questions, but I am tired of putting energy into my posts and you don’t respond.

So, I have a request. If you have anything else to say to me, please first answer this very simple question:

In the scenario I gave, why did the son disobey his mother? What did he want?

The mother, grannymh, is obviously not God. I remember, in the bible, that if we ask enough times we will finally get an answer. Maybe, this time…

 

[OneSheep]

Grannymh,

I really don’t understand why the question is only for the “privacy of your soul”. It sounds like more excuses to cherry-pick. I could be wrong though. It seems to me that you avoid challenges. I forgive your “cherry-picking”.

 

[simpleas]

Me too. I am not talking about permanent conditions. I am saying that if we do something against our conscience, our conscience has some choice words for us. We feel guilty. If we behave against our conscience, the conscience lets us have it. If we behave the way our conscience tells us to, we feel good about ourselves. Our conscience manipulates us into good behavior. It works!

To me, nobody is unworthy in God’s eyes. However, the posture of humility is the posture of repentance. I say it to people all the time. “Don’t make an extra effort for me”, I say. I try to be as accommodating as possible. These are words of submission, a bow. I am worthy, but the words are those of respect, consideration, and accommodation. Jesus proves to us, from the cross, that we are worthy.

I agree, if we behave the way our conscience tells us to we feel good. I’m trying to think of a situation were i have gone against my conscience, and nothing is coming to my mind, not of recent years anyway.
If i did go against it, i would know, because of guilt etc.

But what of our conscience telling us something is good, where the church tells us it is bad? Is that us acting just on our desires, so then tricking our conscience to help us believe its good?

Yes noone should be unworthy in Gods eyes, but we do say that we are unworthy, but this is are way of repenting before god, is that what you mean?

 

[grannymh]

Grannymh,

I really don’t understand why the question is only for the “privacy of your soul”. It sounds like more excuses to cherry-pick. I could be wrong though. It seems to me that you avoid challenges. I forgive your “cherry-picking”.

:kiss4you:

 

[BobCatholic]

There is, I believe a general, objective, human conscience.

This makes it sound like we are part of a collective hive mentality. Like the Borg.

Resistance is futile…you will be assimilated.

That doesn’t sound right to me.

I think there is an objective standard of right and wrong. Grace and reason give us the ability to accept it and incorporate it into our personal conscience.

I use “imperfect” there objectively, not with negative tone. I am not using “imperfect” to criticize the human.

That’s how I see imperfections. The problem I see is that we are created imperfect then punished for the result of those imperfections. This is completely unjust.

If the “Mom” is God, the relationship is already there, and the son doesn’t know it (for good reason, too!)

If God doesn’t talk to us and clarify what He wants, how is someone supposed to figure out the exact will of God for themselves? The Church and Scripture does give awesome guidance on the general stuff, but it is the specifics I’m being punished for, specifics that are not privvy to me.

 

[OneSheep]

I agree, if we behave the way our conscience tells us to we feel good. I’m trying to think of a situation were i have gone against my conscience, and nothing is coming to my mind, not of recent years anyway.
If i did go against it, i would know, because of guilt etc.

Our brain and body actually put out compounds that make us feel better or worse. It’s hardwired into us. I get down on myself for performance. Some days, it seems like I get very little done at work, and I blame myself for getting bogged down in indecision. My conscience says “be very productive”, but sometimes I don’t measure up to my standards.

But what of our conscience telling us something is good, where the church tells us it is bad? Is that us acting just on our desires, so then tricking our conscience to help us believe its good?

I think you may be right about that, I mean, I have certainly experienced that personally. When we want something badly, we become blinded to the feelings of others, and to our own consciences. Isn’t this what rationalizing is? On the other hand, we could indeed have a malformed or uninformed conscience, right? Is there such thing as a “perfect” conscience?

Have you been exposed to the “train” scenarios in morality/cognitive science studies? One scenario is that there are five people on a train bridge, and cannot jump off. You are not heavy enough to stop a train, but if you push the large man next to you onto the tracks, you could stop the train. Would you do it, sacrifice one to save the five? People usually (but not always) say no, they are repulsed. On the other hand, if it is a matter of pushing a switch on the track, making the train veer away from the five, and killing another person on the new track, most people say they would do it.

Yes noone should be unworthy in Gods eyes, but we do say that we are unworthy, but this is are way of repenting before god, is that what you mean?

Well, in my view, no one is unworthy in God’s eyes. I found a reference that I like, and here is an exerpt:
catholicexchange.com/lord-i-am-not-worthy/

What is the centurion saying? In comparing himself to his own servant as “a man under authority,” the centurion is suggesting a few very important things. One, he realizes that in Jesus’ presence he is really no more than a servant himself. Secondly, his words also suggest that he recognizes in Jesus far more than just an ordinary man; rather, he indicates an awareness that Jesus is one to whom true authority belongs.

In describing how his own underlings obey his word, the centurion is essentially saying, “If those under me do what I command at my word, surely You who have ultimate authority can command anything — including something as incredible as the miracle of healing — by your very word alone.”

This is basically what I am saying when I say it. It is not a downgrade from worthiness. It is a statement of humility and submission, which I suppose could be repentance too, yes.

 

[OneSheep]

This makes it sound like we are part of a collective hive mentality. Like the Borg.

Resistance is futile…you will be assimilated.

That doesn’t sound right to me.

I think there is an objective standard of right and wrong. Grace and reason give us the ability to accept it and incorporate it into our personal conscience.

Check the train track study I described in my response to simpleas. We can call it objective, and it is there, but since our experiences are so different, our access is different.

That’s how I see imperfections. The problem I see is that we are created imperfect then punished for the result of those imperfections. This is completely unjust.

If God doesn’t talk to us and clarify what He wants, how is someone supposed to figure out the exact will of God for themselves? The Church and Scripture does give awesome guidance on the general stuff, but it is the specifics I’m being punished for, specifics that are not privvy to me.

I do hear your frustration, and I understand it. Life is not meeting your expectations. God is not punishing you. If you think you are being punished, it is your conscience doing so. God is not punishing the starving and sick. He is not punishing you either.

 

[OneSheep]

:kiss4you:

That is so sweet! God bless you, peace be with you.

 

[simpleas]

If satan has power, then he has unknowable power. If his power is unknowable, then for all our minds know, his power is infinite, because we will never know the extent of such power. So, as much as we can say, “Satan has less power”, it does no good in terms of actually knowing satan has limits. If satan has this unknown amount of power, then this is dualistic thinking. Keep in mind, though, that I still think dualism has its place. Dualism is an outgrowth of our conscience, and we love to see the right raised up and the wrong defeated. Forgiveness of all our enemies frees us from dualism.

When we use the label “bad” for a person, this is what our conscience is telling us. If you name a “bad” person out of history or the Bible or even in fiction, I can explain. As Fr. Anthony de Mello said, “if you feel any negativity toward anyone, you are living in an illusion.” When we use the word “bad” to describe a person (some exceptions, of course) we are making a statement of our own resentment toward the person.

BTW, I don’t see bad in anyone right now, but I may tomorrow. When I realize that I do have this negative thinking about someone, then I know it is time to forgive. As a priest once told me, “It is not to condemn or condone, but understand”. Understanding is a crucial step in forgiveness.

What a great question! But let’s take one step back. Why does a person enjoy the pain caused by holding a grudge against someone? Think about this one.

Well, we can try, but it is really hard to stop judging, the workings of our conscience are so very automatic. The majority of the time, the best I can do is realize that I have already judged, and then forgive.

“Selfish” is one of those catch-all words. There is a lot to investigate on “selfishness”, but we are already working on the grudge case.

We don’t know the power of satan…ok…some people would say just look at the state of the world, that satan has worked his way in more and more. Some people say its all down to man…
As i understand Dualism to mean there would be two Gods, one good the other evil. God is the creator of all, including satan (i know you know this, i just need to write it to explain my thinking)
Satan is a creature, not a God and so dualism has no place as a teaching from the catholic church. But when i read the following quotes, it sometimes gets me thinking that satan is pretty powerful :

Pope Paul VI taught : Evil is an effective agent, a living spiritual being, perverted and perverting. A terrible reality. It is contrary to the teaching of the bible and the church to refuse to recognise the existence of such a reality…or to explain it as a pseudo-reality, a conceptual and fanciful personification of the unknown causes of our misfortunes.

St Paul wrote : Put on the whole armour of God, so you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For our struggle is not against enemies of flesh and blood, but against the rulers, the authorities,the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. (Eph6,11)

Understanding is a big step in forgiving, how to understand what some people do is very hard. There are some people i don’t think i’ll ever understand, but i wouldn’t do to them what they do.

What does the person who enjoys anothers pain by holding a grudge? i don’t know! They would be among my " i can’t understand why they do this" list.

 

[simpleas]

Our brain and body actually put out compounds that make us feel better or worse. It’s hardwired into us. I get down on myself for performance. Some days, it seems like I get very little done at work, and I blame myself for getting bogged down in indecision. My conscience says “be very productive”, but sometimes I don’t measure up to my standards.

I think you may be right about that, I mean, I have certainly experienced that personally. When we want something badly, we become blinded to the feelings of others, and to our own consciences. Isn’t this what rationalizing is? On the other hand, we could indeed have a malformed or uninformed conscience, right? Is there such thing as a “perfect” conscience?

Have you been exposed to the “train” scenarios in morality/cognitive science studies? One scenario is that there are five people on a train bridge, and cannot jump off. You are not heavy enough to stop a train, but if you push the large man next to you onto the tracks, you could stop the train. Would you do it, sacrifice one to save the five? People usually (but not always) say no, they are repulsed. On the other hand, if it is a matter of pushing a switch on the track, making the train veer away from the five, and killing another person on the new track, most people say they would do it.

Yes noone should be unworthy in Gods eyes, but we do say that we are unworthy, but this is are way of repenting before god, is that what you mean?

Well, in my view, no one is unworthy in God’s eyes. I found a reference that I like, and here is an exerpt:
catholicexchange.com/lord-i-am-not-worthy/

What is the centurion saying? In comparing himself to his own servant as “a man under authority,” the centurion is suggesting a few very important things. One, he realizes that in Jesus’ presence he is really no more than a servant himself. Secondly, his words also suggest that he recognizes in Jesus far more than just an ordinary man; rather, he indicates an awareness that Jesus is one to whom true authority belongs.

In describing how his own underlings obey his word, the centurion is essentially saying, “If those under me do what I command at my word, surely You who have ultimate authority can command anything — including something as incredible as the miracle of healing — by your very word alone.”

This is basically what I am saying when I say it. It is not a downgrade from worthiness. It is a statement of humility and submission, which I suppose could be repentance too, yes.

Don’t think there is a perfect conscience.

Not sure what i would do in the scenario question. I think what we think we would do by just imagining it and when actually faced with such or similar situation are very different.

 

[BobCatholic]

God is not punishing you. If you think you are being punished, it is your conscience doing so.

I’m not allowed to have a job. This is not my conscience punishing me, this is a curse from God.

 

[OneSheep]

I’m not allowed to have a job. This is not my conscience punishing me, this is a curse from God.

I hope the link I sent you turns out well. I will keep praying for you too. I hear you, all of this discussion is much less on the front than your frustration.

But, can you see the why Jesus’ contemporaries, and even the ancient Israelites, looked at their fate as punishment? With that thinking, we could say that God is punishing people who have AIDS or cancer, or people who are starving are also deserving of punishment. The rich, then, are those who have found great favor with God, people with worldly power too. I think this is exactly some of the thinking that Jesus set about to reverse.

Can you see, though, the wisdom in “God comes to us, disguised as our lives.”?

It doesn’t matter that I tell you, or the world tells you, or your priest tells you, that God is not punishing you. Life appears to you to be punishing you, and I respect your opinion. And when life is hard, does it matter whether it is punishment, or fate, or whatever? No, to me what matters is hope. I pray that you find hope, Bob.

Oops. Was that a lecture? Oh, I forgot to mention, you are evil…

God bless you, Bob, and thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[OneSheep]

Don’t think there is a perfect conscience.

Not sure what i would do in the scenario question. I think what we think we would do by just imagining it and when actually faced with such or similar situation are very different.

I agree. I think the scenario experiments have a lot of bugs in them. What I do think is significant, though, is that when people are forced between the two lousy choices, with everything else the same, there is a huge difference between the number of people who would hit a button causing a death and pushing an overweight person causing a death. People were very repulsed with the pushing part, it was a gut reaction against the pushing.

I would switch the train track and scream like crazy. It would be easier to get one person to jump than 5. And here’s another twist: would you jump in front of the train if you were the heavy person? Would you push the heavy person if you went with him?

People are going to have different responses. This is not “relativism”, it is the reality that we all have different experiences and, therefore, consciences.

Bringing this back to the topic, though, the conscience is a gift from God, and I think is central to the notion of “original sin” if OS is defined as our “unworthiness”. (note: what I prefer is to say that “original sin” consists of all the drives we have that cause problems and we naturally come to resent, but that is not what I am addressing in this post.)

Can our conscience relate to a god who creates someone, and in his omniscience knows that his creation will choose to separate himself and live in misery forever?

On the other hand, does our conscience give us misery? Does it punish us in such a way, pouring guilt on us when we misbehave or disobey? Yes. Does our conscience make us feel good when we jump through all of its hoops? Absolutely. That is why, to me, the story of the tree of knowledge does not reflect God’s actions or behavior, but instead reflects the actions and behavior of the conscience He gave us.

And since grannymh and others didn’t come up with an answer, I will provide my own opinion as to why Adam ate the fruit:

Here goes. Please, anyone, feel free to comment.

Adam wanted power, he wanted status, and he had, like us, curiosity. He wanted to dominate. These are drives given to all of the higher mammals by our Creator. But there was something else involved.

Adam, all of us, want freedom. We want our autonomy.

So, as much as our consciences are vital and helpful, to some degree we resent our own consciences. Like I mentioned before, our consciences contain a rulebook. Rules always inhibit our freedom. Rules give us security, but the price is less freedom. God (as our conscience) gives Adam a rule. Adam, wanting freedom, breaks it. The conscience condemns him.

Is our conscience, God? This is where the answer is yes, and no. When we are children and young adults, our conscience is the first inner voice that we hear. As we become more self-aware, though, we also deepen our relationship with God. (Forgiveness and love play a huge role in this.) We can find that God is much deeper than our conscience. God loves us even when our conscience does not.

So, I look at the genius of the creation story is that the story reflects our own relationship with our conscience, and that the story also explains that our conscience came from God, just as every other aspect of ourselves. It would be really easy to think that the self-condemning aspect of our consciences (guilt) comes from an evil power, the devil. It does not. Our conscience is given to us by a beneficent Creator.

I am not pushing this as “fact” or the “way the our CCC should read”. I am saying that today, this is how I can make sense out of the story of Adam, Eve and the tree of knowledge.

 

[OneSheep]

“Even if she forget, I will never forget” from Isaiah is true indeed. There’s a limit both to our capacity to perceive/receive unconditional forgiveness and to our capacity to learn and share it. If we look carefully, we can recognize such teachers of unconditional love here on earth - parents, spouses, siblings, friends - to help us get what Jesus wanted from us. But their and our disposition to love and forgive is naturally imperfect. Which helps us further find the right questions and answers about God. Mine were these ones: “what was Jesus’ perspective, how come He forgave them all and HOW FAR did He want to push His disciples beyond their limits?” But surely there are many ways that must lead to the same understanding.

So, in my experience, yes, there are people, looking back, who may have loved me unconditionally. But not outwardly so. For me, as I mentioned before, I did not know the unconditional love of God until I made a commitment to love my wife unconditionally. It was the doing that led to the seeing. Conditional forgiveness is not unconditional love.

So, until my commitment, the crucifixion did not represent God’s unconditional love. Instead, I believed in the standard fare. “Jesus died so we would not get what we deserved”. Now the crucifixion says to me, “Here is how Abba forgives, He forgives even when you torture and kill Him.”

What is your view on “forgiving your shadow”? (Jungian term)