Original Sin

[grannymh]

QuWhen I see my neighbor doings things I know are morally wrong, even children disobeying knowing what this could lead to, I had a strong tendency to and actually judged. After striving to correct the situations (unknowingly playing god) I pitted myself against the establishment thinking I was doing Gods’ will. I found myself helplessly frustrated, confused and suffering greatly. I thought that God had abandoned me. I tried every avenue I knew for help to no avail. I had a prayer group pray for me, as well my prayers. Then came the day of “Enlightenment” By Gods’grace I came to know why I experience complete failure, and I mean complete failure. I had to experience this. I took my Faith (a gift) for granted expecting from others what I expected from myself. When I demanded from others what they could not give I frustrated myself and them too. I committed an injustice towards them. I became very judgmental. It was true they did wrong, and so did I. I finally realized that they were handicapped spiritually, I could see their weakness but not my own. What is Jesus all about? He came to redeem us from Powers and Principalities… rebellious angels. God has confirmed this belief for me. He also came to give us a new life of grace. Pride was their downfall and mans’ too. We actually play saviour unintentionally. sometimes in our efforts to do good, we must fail. Salvation of mankind is left to God alone. Nobody in Heaven and earth will take His place . When I learned this then I was confirmed in this truth. We must encounter Jesus, He is the Gate. and when we do our lives will forever,change and we will love God for Himself :and not just for His gifts. Peace to men of good will, not necessarily to those who succeed! Quote: Oh Lord heal my blindness so that I can see

Your sharing is sincerely appreciated. Thank you.

 

[fhansen]

Obviously, God as Creator does not have conditions affecting His actions.

It is the human creature who has been given the conditions for living in friendship with our Creator. These conditions are necessary for human creatures because humans are not the Creator nor are they the same as the Creator. The Catholic interpretation of Genesis 2: 15-17 is in CCC, 396 and CCC, 1730.

May I respectfully refer to Luke 11-24 where we observe the conditions that the Prodigal Son has to meet in order to receive his Father’s forgiveness.

Please look carefully at Luke 15: 17-19 and 21. These informative verses present both the conditions for forgiveness and the carrying out of the conditions. These actual conditions are also required for a valid Sacrament of Reconciliation. Kindly consider that Luke 15; 11-24 has more essential information than the fact that the Father is filled with compassion and is waiting with open arms.

Verses17-19 conditions start with coming to one’s senses and thinking. Otherwise, the son would be like a handsome rock minus the abilities of a spiritual soul.

Verse 21 is the acknowledgement of the sin and the acknowledgment that the Prodigal Son is no longer in the father/son relationship because he no longer deserves it.

Verse 24 states that the Prodigal Son was lost, that is he was no longer in Sanctifying Grace. He is found in that he freely chose (a condition) to return to his Father’s graces via the necessary condition of physically leaving the distant country described in verses 13-16. When we commit mortal sins, we, too, are in a “distant country” separated from our Creator.

In the following celebration, the Father shows his Prodigal Son the joy of having him back. The Sacrament of Reconciliation restores the joy of Sanctifying Grace by which we share in God’s divine life here on earth.

When we speak of the unconditional love of God we’re speaking of a love that knows no bounds- so wide and deep and long that it’s unfathomable. It places no conditions on us- Christ dying for us while we were yet sinners (Rom 5:8) , dying for all (1 Cor 2:14-15). 1 Cor 13 perhaps describes the nature of this love best. We’re in charge of the conditions; the acceptance or rejection of His offer-of this unconditional love-and of His unconditional forgiveness- is the part we play, and, ultimately, He won’t interfere with it.

 

[vames]

Please look carefully at Luke 15: 17-19 and 21. These informative verses present both the conditions for forgiveness and the carrying out of the conditions. These actual conditions are also required for a valid Sacrament of Reconciliation. Kindly consider that Luke 15; 11-24 has more essential information than the fact that the Father is filled with compassion and is waiting with open arms.

Verses17-19 conditions start with coming to one’s senses and thinking. Otherwise, the son would be like a handsome rock minus the abilities of a spiritual soul.

Verse 21 is the acknowledgement of the sin and the acknowledgment that the Prodigal Son is no longer in the father/son relationship because he no longer deserves it.

Verse 24 states that the Prodigal Son was lost, that is he was no longer in Sanctifying Grace. He is found in that he freely chose (a condition) to return to his Father’s graces via the necessary condition of physically leaving the distant country described in verses 13-16. When we commit mortal sins, we, too, are in a “distant country” separated from our Creator.

In the following celebration, the Father shows his Prodigal Son the joy of having him back. The Sacrament of Reconciliation restores the joy of Sanctifying Grace by which we share in God’s divine life here on earth.

1: “I will get up and go to my father, and I will say to him…” - no condition imposed by the father: the son said this to himself before returning home, imagining that it would be very hard to earn his father’s forgiveness.

2: “While he was still far off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion; he ran and put his arms around him and kissed him” - no condition imposed by the father: this happens before the son had the time to say anything.

3: “Then the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned…” - no condition imposed by the father: this happens after the father received the son back and kissed him.

4: “But the father said to his slaves, ‘Quickly, bring out a robe…” - no condition imposed by the father: the father simply ignores the request of the son to become a servant.

5: “For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found” - no condition imposed by the father: he noticed that the son chose to come back because he grew up and realized that he belonged home, not because the father asked him or ordered him to do that.

6: “But we had to celebrate and rejoice…” - no condition imposed by the father: he explicitly rejects the approach of the older brother, who demanded punishment for the younger brother.

If I am the prodigal son, my guilt, contrition, urge to do penance, attempts at reparation, feelings of unworthiness aren’t conditions imposed by my father. These are the consequences of my human nature: my reason allows me to notice that my life is worse now and will continue to be worse than when I was at home with my father (= this would be the equivalent of “imperfect contrition”) and my heart pushes me to feel sorry for what I have done to my loving father (= this would be the equivalent of “perfect contrition”). So I decide to correct my behavior and come back home, because my experience of being far from home allowed me to understand that I made a mistake, because I belong home, with my father.

But my father doesn’t NEED any of that so he can forgive me and kiss me and allow me back home. His love and forgiveness are not contingent on anything that I could ever do or say. Conditional love and forgiveness mean: “Son, there’s NO chance for you to be loved, forgiven and allowed back home IF you don’t say or do the following things: kneel and beg, say you aren’t worthy to consider yourself my son anymore, go and work as my servant for a while. Then I’ll forgive you and only then we can rejoice and celebrate. Your older brother is correct: you disobeyed me and left me, you devoured my property with prostitutes, so you have to pay. Do you refuse to fulfil my conditions? Then leave and don’t come back - I disown you, I can’t love and forgive such a bad son!”

 

[grannymh]

1. Can you see, granny, that a person who has a great deal of difficulty forgiving others is going to see merit in the idea of a God who withholds forgiveness under certain circumstances? (Note: all of us, at least sometimes, have difficulty forgiving.) Please explain your answer.

snip

Please, answer the questions.** Unconditional forgiveness is the key aspect that contradicts the doctrine of Original Sin**, and these questions are very pertinent to the topic.

I put the key aspect which contradicts the doctrine of Original Sin in bold.

I realize that the questions are very pertinent to the topic. Having already dealt with question 1 in my post 624, I will move on to question 2. which is:
Can you see, granny, that a person who has a great deal of difficulty forgiving others is going to see merit in the idea of a God who withholds forgiveness under certain circumstances? (Note: all of us, at least sometimes, have difficulty forgiving.) Please explain your answer.
I will do my best to connect the question to the doctrine of Original Sin which is being contradicted. This doctrine says that there was an actual sin committed by the actual first human. There are no other first humans for Adam to forgive. The spouse of Adam is the second person. While she freely chose to commit the forbidden sin, Catholicism teaches that the whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. Now, Adam could forgive Eve for her bad example; however, that does not change her into first person responsibility. Therefore, Adam’s situation really does not connect to any situation involving people who no way can be the first human.

One could offer the idea that Adam should forgive himself . Here is the real difficulty. Adam did not create his relationship with the Creator because Adam is not even close to being on the same level as the Creator. Adam dictating terms to God would be similar to the tail wagging the dog. Granted that people deny God so that they can control God, but we do not find evidence of this in the first three chapters of Genesis. Despite Adam’s Original Sin, God, Who remains in control, continues to exist.

Thus, we have an unique Adam situation which can never be repeated in subsequent human history. Therefore, subsequent human history cannot contradict Original Sin.

What we do have is an unique Original Sin which can never be repeated in subsequent human history. Recall that there can only be one original, first sinner. What actually happens in subsequent human history are the personal mortal sins which also shatter the individual’s personal relationship with our Creator. Forgiveness is the true purpose of the Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Let us go back to the God/Adam relationship. One thing which needs to be recognized is that not every word of Divine Revelation appears in the first three chapters of Genesis. Here is what CCC, 388 says. It needs to be read twice.
**388 **With the progress of Revelation, the reality of sin is also illuminated. Although to some extent the People of God in the Old Testament had tried to understand the pathos of the human condition in the light of the history of the fall narrated in Genesis, they could not grasp this story’s ultimate meaning, which is revealed only in the light of the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. We must know Christ as the source of grace in order to know Adam as the source of sin. The Spirit-Paraclete, sent by the risen Christ, came to “convict the world concerning sin,” by revealing him who is its Redeemer.
The short version is John 3:16 which is God’s actual act of forgiveness for the Original Sin.

Yes, God did forgive Adam; however, the consequences of the broken relationship between humanity and Divinity remained and are transmitted via propagation to descendants. In hiding from God, Adam and Eve recognized that their relationship with their Creator was broken. Adam’s words seeking forgiveness are not recorded. Still, more importantly, the result of Adam’s sorrow is immediately seen in Genesis 3:15 (the first announcement of the Messiah) which is dramatically before the results of Original Sin.

Christ’s obedience will triumph over Adam’s disobedience. (Romans 5: 12-21; CCC, 410-411)

We current humans are in a different situation from Adam. We are not in the Garden of Eden nor did we start out with Original Holiness of the Original Adam. Christ has already died and has already freely rose from the dead.

We come from a first ancestor who rejected God. We cannot change that; however, we can do the reverse by seeking God. We need to freely choose God which means freely living in submission to God the Creator. (CCC, 396 and CCC, 1730) Our relationship to God is always one of the creature to the Creator. That is why we submit ourselves to conditions for God’s forgiveness. Submitting to God’s conditions for forgiveness is the outward sign that we have chosen to have God’s life within us which is Sanctifying Grace as opposed to the state of mortal sin.

 

[fhansen]

The unconditional nature of God’s forgiveness does not equate to universal salvation. The forgiveness is always there. Our part is to humble ourselves and accept it, to have a change of heart. Without both: God’s grace and man’s acceptance of it, man remains lost.

 

[grannymh]

The offer of [God’s] forgiveness is depended on the sinner deliberately seeking a return to God. All the humility in the world will not work when the sinner chooses to remain in mortal sin. The choice to have a change of heart is in reality the basic necessary condition. Contrition rising from the examination of one’s present life to the point that the sinner is sorry to have offended the God he truly loves and desires above all else is another condition. (CCC, 1451-1452)

I am amazed that people actually believe that a person dedicated to mortal sin will receive unconditional forgiveness while standing there freely and deliberately spitting in God’s face…because that is what is implied by unconditional forgiveness. Unconditional implies that humans’ desires for the delights of sin are more powerful than union with God based on His terms, His conditions.
(CCC, 396; CCC, 1730)

Submitting to God’s conditions for forgiveness is the outward sign that we have chosen to have God’s life within us which is Sanctifying Grace as opposed to the state of mortal sin.

Because of the proper conditions for obtaining God’s forgiveness, the claim about the unconditional nature of God’s forgiveness is unfounded. Humans are not rocks. We have the ability to accept or reject God’s invitation to share in His divine life here on earth (Sanctifying Grace) and forever in the presence of the Beatific Vision. Precisely because of our rational spiritual soul, in the image of God, we are able to respect the conditions for a relationship between the human creature and God the Creator. This respect is possible due to our intellect and free will. God respects our choice.

 

[fhansen]

The offer of [God’s] forgiveness is depended on the sinner deliberately seeking a return to God. All the humility in the world will not work when the sinner chooses to remain in mortal sin. The choice to have a change of heart is in reality the basic necessary condition. Contrition rising from the examination of one’s present life to the point that the sinner is sorry to have offended the God he truly loves and desires above all else is another condition. (CCC, 1451-1452)

I am amazed that people actually believe that a person dedicated to mortal sin will receive unconditional forgiveness while standing there freely and deliberately spitting in God’s face…because that is what is implied by unconditional forgiveness. Unconditional implies that humans’ desires for the delights of sin are more powerful than union with God based on His terms, His conditions.
(CCC, 396; CCC, 1730)

Humbly accepting the offer of forgiveness implies various dispositions and actions. One I mentioned, a change of heart,=metanoia, a concept which includes repentance. Like I said, God offers forgiveness to all-we’re the wild card.

 

[grannymh]

Humbly accepting the offer of forgiveness implies various dispositions. One I mentioned, a change of heart,=metanoia, a concept which includes repentance. Like I said, God offers forgiveness to all-we’re the wild card.

Unfortunately, fhansen’s post was posted before I finished editing my post 634.

Yes, God offers forgiveness to all. But that should not be personally interpreted as God automatically giving unconditional forgiveness. As I said, the desire for a change of heart is, in fact, a basic condition. Submitting to God’s basic conditions for forgiveness is the “outward sign” that we have chosen to have God’s life within us which is Sanctifying Grace as opposed to the state of mortal sin.

I apologize for this thought – watering down God’s position as Creator (such as avoiding the solid word “conditions”) is not a plus in our spiritual lives.

 

[OneSheep]

As for “unconditional forgiveness” being the key aspect that contradicts the doctrine of Original Sin, unconditional forgiveness denies that the human creature has a rational spiritual soul created by God at conception. Thus, it becomes unimportant to even consider a spiritual relationship with God since humans are simply prettier rocks minus the conditions needed for the relationship between two different kinds of beings, the Creator and the created.

I’m sorry, granny, I simply can’t follow your thinking. How does unconditional forgiveness deny that the human has a rational soul created by God at conception? Jesus unconditionally forgave the crowd He saw from the cross.

To explain any situation (like the one involving Jan, her daughter, and Kate), I look to the Our Father prayer and would hope that Jan and her daughter, after venting, would forgive someone who hurt them in some way. Kate, if she had committed a mortal sin, would need to seek forgiveness directly from God through the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Okay, you would hope that Jan and her daughter forgive. However, should they forgive? What if Kate doesn’t want to be forgiven, doesn’t think she did anything wrong, and refuses to say she is sorry, should Jan and her daughter forgive anyway? What is the Catholic way of looking at this in your neighborhood?

 

[OneSheep]

I will do my best to connect the question to the doctrine of Original Sin which is being contradicted. This doctrine says that there was an actual sin committed by the actual first human. There are no other first humans for Adam to forgive. The spouse of Adam is the second person. While she freely chose to commit the forbidden sin, Catholicism teaches that the whole human race is in Adam “as one body of one man”. Now, Adam could forgive Eve for her bad example; however, that does not change her into first person responsibility. Therefore, Adam’s situation really does not connect to any situation involving people who no way can be the first human.

One could offer the idea that Adam should forgive himself . Here is the real difficulty. Adam did not create his relationship with the Creator because Adam is not even close to being on the same level as the Creator. Adam dictating terms to God would be similar to the tail wagging the dog. Granted that people deny God so that they can control God, but we do not find evidence of this in the first three chapters of Genesis. Despite Adam’s Original Sin, God, Who remains in control, continues to exist.

Thus, we have an unique Adam situation which can never be repeated in subsequent human history. Therefore, subsequent human history cannot contradict Original Sin.

What we do have is an unique Original Sin which can never be repeated in subsequent human history. Recall that there can only be one original, first sinner. What actually happens in subsequent human history are the personal mortal sins which also shatter the individual’s personal relationship with our Creator. Forgiveness is the true purpose of the Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Let us go back to the God/Adam relationship. One thing which needs to be recognized is that not every word of Divine Revelation appears in the first three chapters of Genesis. Here is what CCC, 388 says. It needs to be read twice.
…
[/INDENT]The short version is John 3:16 which is God’s actual act of forgiveness for the Original Sin.

Yes, God did forgive Adam; however, the consequences of the broken relationship between humanity and Divinity remained and are transmitted via propagation to descendants. In hiding from God, Adam and Eve recognized that their relationship with their Creator was broken. Adam’s words seeking forgiveness are not recorded. Still, more importantly, the result of Adam’s sorrow is immediately seen in Genesis 3:15 (the first announcement of the Messiah) which is dramatically before the results of Original Sin.

Christ’s obedience will triumph over Adam’s disobedience. (Romans 5: 12-21; CCC, 410-411)

We current humans are in a different situation from Adam. We are not in the Garden of Eden nor did we start out with Original Holiness of the Original Adam. Christ has already died and has already freely rose from the dead.

We come from a first ancestor who rejected God. We cannot change that; however, we can do the reverse by seeking God. We need to freely choose God which means freely living in submission to God the Creator. (CCC, 396 and CCC, 1730) Our relationship to God is always one of the creature to the Creator. That is why we submit ourselves to conditions for God’s forgiveness. Submitting to God’s conditions for forgiveness is the outward sign that we have chosen to have God’s life within us which is Sanctifying Grace as opposed to the state of mortal sin.

I’m sorry, granny, you put together all this work, but you did not answer my question. The question was:

Can you see, granny, that a person who has a great deal of difficulty forgiving others is going to see merit in the idea of a God who withholds forgiveness under certain circumstances? (Note: all of us, at least sometimes, have difficulty forgiving.)

A simple “yes or no” would have been the beginning, and then you would support your answer. However, I will drop this question, and I must say that to me your responses are getting more and more incomprehensible.

So, I am going to try to pick one part out of your response, and ask you to please clarify. If you only have time to answer Vames post 631, though, I think I would rather you answer that one, for perhaps in answering it you will be able to express yourself in ways that directly address the question at hand. No one here, granny, is saying that God is a human just like us. The relationship is one of God and person. I do not know why you keep bringing this up. God loves us unconditionally, as can be seen from Vames’ post 631. Forgiveness, granny, is an act of love.

So, here it goes:

One could offer the idea that Adam should forgive himself . Here is the real difficulty. Adam did not create his relationship with the Creator because Adam is not even close to being on the same level as the Creator. Adam dictating terms to God would be similar to the tail wagging the dog.

I have absolutely no idea what these sentences had to do with my question, but I am thinking that maybe if I get this clarified, I might begin to know what your response has to do with my question.

So, here is what I would like clarified: How is Adam forgiving himself “dictating terms to God”? I am dumbfounded here, perhaps with an emphasis on the “dumb”.

 

[vames]

I apologize for this thought – watering down God’s position as Creator (such as avoiding the solid word “conditions”) is not a plus in our spiritual lives.

On the contrary, this is limiting God’s position as Creator.

In the story of the prodigal son, you see conditions everywhere. Why? God is not limited by anything, not even by our human need for order and discipline expressed in seeing conditionalities and setting boundaries and limits everywhere. God is not contingent on anything that a creature thinks, feels, says and does. God is not even bounded by His sacraments. And in a God who is much wiser and much more generous than the wisest and most generous human being, this lack of limitations can be understood only in the light of His love towards all people: like a father who doesn’t use his superior physical and intellectual power to beat or humiliate his young son, God doesn’t use His power to crush and coerce people, but to help them to grow up. Grace is something that always precedes and always surpasses our own limitations; otherwise is not grace, but something that can be bought and earned.

And God helps us to grow up - in freedom. One can’t be forced to grow up, forced to understand, forced to love, forced to repent, forced to be grateful. Atheists use to say: “how can you pretend that you freely love your God, since you know that he punishes you if don’t love him? be honest, you just fear him and call it love!” But the story of the prodigal son is a story about the freedom of man.

The prodigal son repented and came back without being told so, without being coerced and threatened; he realized that he made a mistake, he realized that he belongs home. (That’s why need the experience of suffering and sin to grow up and grow in the knowledge of God.)
After he left home, he was delighted by his rebellion and had big hopes about his new life; at that time he couldn’t understand his father’s love and couldn’t care less about his home. (This is when we are blinded by sin; no amount of pleading or coercion can make us understand that we’re wrong.)
But eventually the son woke up, realized his situation and this prompted him to feel sorry. (Just like it happens to us, sooner or later.)
In order to earn his forgiveness, he planned to bargain and offer sacrifices: “I will say to my father: treat me like one of your hired hands”. (When we repent, we have the impression that God’s forgiveness is contingent on what we do.)
The father ignores this attempt at bargain and simply shows his love, his joy of having his son back and his unwillingness to punish the son. (God’s forgiveness doesn’t come because we managed to fulfil certain conditions; forgiveness was always there, just waiting for us to wake up, to become aware of its existence and to understand that it is a free gift.)
The older son protests, reminding the father that the younger son didn’t do anything to deserve to be received home and celebrated. (We can’t value this kind of love and forgiveness as long as we think that its existence is contingent on our repentance and penance and that we can earn it this way.)

The Sacrament of Reconciliation allows us to SPEED UP this process of waking up and reaching the moment of repentance and allows us to ACCEPT that God forgives us. Left to our own devices, we’d wander indefinitely, lost in our sins, until something happens and prompts us to reflect on our situation. Left to our own devices, we’d repent, but then we’d doubt that we are really forgiven. Our human justice is based on an economy of payment, not on an economy of gift, so we are given absolution and penances to encourage us to break with the past and to accept the idea that we are forgiven. Penances are intended to help us, not to satisfy God.

Jesus urged us to repent: when we repent, we become aware of God’s forgiveness and can shed the burden of sin. But we can’t make the existence of God’s forgiveness possible by our repentance and attempts at reparation. It’s a matter of what we manage to perceive and receive, not of what we manage to create and buy. Jesus urged us to forgive our brothers: when we become able to forgive others and ourselves, we become able to perceive God’s forgiveness towards us and understand that “my yoke is easy” is in fact true. The older brother couldn’t understand the forgiveness of his father precisely because he believed that such forgiveness is conditioned and must be earned.

 

[grannymh]

Humbly accepting the offer of forgiveness implies various dispositions and actions. One I mentioned, a change of heart,=metanoia, a concept which includes repentance. Like I said, God offers forgiveness to all-we’re the wild card.

Thank you sincerely for bringing up the virtue of humility. All of us need reminders of it.

One of my teachers told us that the virtue of humility was really the truth about ourselves. At that time, I thought that her definition was rather narrow. Since I was not the sharpest knife in the drawer and my being uncoordinated and shy was so obvious, I never worried about humility. Now that I am older than dirt and often very cranky, this reminder about humility has me thinking. In our century of overbearing scientific wonders, I ask myself if we can really humbly seek the truth about our human nature and consequently about our spirituality.

 

[grannymh]

On the contrary, this is limiting God’s position as Creator.

In the story of the prodigal son, you see conditions everywhere. Why? God is not limited by anything, …

This caught my eye.

Of course, God is not limited. In fact, I often use this very brief description of God as being the transcendent, supernatural Pure Spirit without restrictions. I used to use the words “without limitations” but now I like “without restrictions” when referring to the Creator. On the other hand, “with limitations” would be a good description of creatures and critters.

It is the human creature who is limited by conditions in the sense that there are certain conditions, for example material limitations, which need attention. Flapping our arms is possible, but if we really want to fly high, there is the condition that we use an airplane or maybe a hot-air balloon. Or like Winnie the Pooh, we may try holding on to a kite.

At the moment, I am limited by time and cannot finish reading and thinking about this thread. However, there is the concept that humans are not equal with the Creator. In other words, there is a difference between the status of the Creator and the status of the created. (CCC, 396, first two sentences)

 

[grannymh]

I’m sorry, granny, I simply can’t follow your thinking. How does unconditional forgiveness deny that the human has a rational soul created by God at conception?

With a god [sic] who forgives everything and anything without considering any (name removed by moderator)ut (condition) from a human, there is no need for a human to have free will because the opportunity for human choices is not necessary. Since the human intellect and or conscience (which contributes the knowledge of conditions) is not taken into consideration by a god [sic] who forgives anything unconditionally, there is no need for a rational intellect ( a condition for the soul).

The spiritual soul (a condition for human nature) is not necessary because this human-designed god approves all actions unconditionally. That is tantamount to denial of the spiritual soul created by God at conception. The other side of the unconditional coin of forgiveness is the unconditional approval of any and all actions without any distinction between bad and good – because if there were a distinction that would be a condition.

Unfortunately, traveling does have the condition that one leaves on time. And now I am completely out of time.

 

[OneSheep]

With a god [sic] who forgives everything and anything without considering any (name removed by moderator)ut (condition) from a human, there is no need for a human to have free will because the opportunity for human choices is not necessary.

Well, this is going to be a much bigger task than I thought. I really believe that you are putting out something rational here, but my comprehension is challenged. I’ll give it a shot.

God created us with free will. Did God “need” to create us at all? That is one of those mystery questions, I don’t see that such an issue has anything to do with OS. Are you saying that God’s purpose of creating a being with free will is sort of an experiment to see if it makes a choice between doing good and bad acts? Are you saying that the ONLY reason for man to have free will is so that we can learn to “jump through the hoops” of conditional love?

Since the human intellect and or conscience (which contributes the knowledge of conditions) is not taken into consideration by a god [sic] who forgives anything unconditionally, there is no need for a rational intellect ( a condition for the soul).

I think you are saying that God created a creature with intellect in order to choose between good and evil acts. You may have something there. The intellect indeed aids us in knowing when we are doing something hurtful or helpful to others. When we learn to empathize, we avoid hurting others.

I think that you may be saying that it is only fear of God’s unforgiveness that motivates people to behave. This may be true for a child who is told that God will not forgive them unless he behaves a certain way, and it will continue to be the primary motivation for someone whose empathy development has been halted. If fear of God’s wrath is the only thing that motivates you to behave, then that fear is a “good” fear in terms that it is functional.

The spiritual soul (a condition for human nature) is not necessary because this human-designed god approves all actions unconditionally. That is tantamount to denial of the spiritual soul created by God at conception. The other side of the unconditional coin of forgiveness is the unconditional approval of any and all actions without any distinction between bad and good – because if there were a distinction that would be a condition.

I think that you are saying that forgiveness is the same as approval. Approval is not forgiveness. When we approve of someone’s behavior, our anger and wrath is not triggered, so there is no need to forgive. There is nothing in the story of the prodigal son that indicates that the Father approved of the son’s behavior, but God’s forgiveness was there without condition.

I hope that you will prayerfully consider vames posts 631 and 639. Keep an open mind, granny.

 

[OneSheep]

Vames, I want to leave the thread today with post 639 because I stand in awe. That entry would suffice to be the last on this thread. None of our efforts are going to convince granny that God loves and forgives unconditionally, because it is only her experience that will show her. Granny herself will have to love and forgive someone unconditionally in order to understand what we are talking about. Granny will have to find that diary from her mother, as was your experience.

And it is sad that granny is in the position of using the CCC and argument to prove that God does not love us as much as Jesus showed us from the cross, as He forgave the crowd unconditionally. In addition, granny is equating forgiveness with approval, which is an equating of God with our conscience. Granny is trying to give the Catholic point of view, but she cannot understand the position of the prodigal son’s father.

 

[OneSheep]

On the contrary, this is limiting God’s position as Creator.

In the story of the prodigal son, you see conditions everywhere. Why? God is not limited by anything, not even by our human need for order and discipline expressed in seeing conditionalities and setting boundaries and limits everywhere. God is not contingent on anything that a creature thinks, feels, says and does. God is not even bounded by His sacraments. And in a God who is much wiser and much more generous than the wisest and most generous human being, this lack of limitations can be understood only in the light of His love towards all people: like a father who doesn’t use his superior physical and intellectual power to beat or humiliate his young son, God doesn’t use His power to crush and coerce people, but to help them to grow up. Grace is something that always precedes and always surpasses our own limitations; otherwise is not grace, but something that can be bought and earned.

And God helps us to grow up - in freedom. One can’t be forced to grow up, forced to understand, forced to love, forced to repent, forced to be grateful. Atheists use to say: “how can you pretend that you freely love your God, since you know that he punishes you if don’t love him? be honest, you just fear him and call it love!” But the story of the prodigal son is a story about the freedom of man.

The prodigal son repented and came back without being told so, without being coerced and threatened; he realized that he made a mistake, he realized that he belongs home. (That’s why need the experience of suffering and sin to grow up and grow in the knowledge of God.)
After he left home, he was delighted by his rebellion and had big hopes about his new life; at that time he couldn’t understand his father’s love and couldn’t care less about his home. (This is when we are blinded by sin; no amount of pleading or coercion can make us understand that we’re wrong.)
But eventually the son woke up, realized his situation and this prompted him to feel sorry. (Just like it happens to us, sooner or later.)
In order to earn his forgiveness, he planned to bargain and offer sacrifices: “I will say to my father: treat me like one of your hired hands”. (When we repent, we have the impression that God’s forgiveness is contingent on what we do.)
The father ignores this attempt at bargain and simply shows his love, his joy of having his son back and his unwillingness to punish the son. (God’s forgiveness doesn’t come because we managed to fulfil certain conditions; forgiveness was always there, just waiting for us to wake up, to become aware of its existence and to understand that it is a free gift.)
The older son protests, reminding the father that the younger son didn’t do anything to deserve to be received home and celebrated. (We can’t value this kind of love and forgiveness as long as we think that its existence is contingent on our repentance and penance and that we can earn it this way.)

The Sacrament of Reconciliation allows us to SPEED UP this process of waking up and reaching the moment of repentance and allows us to ACCEPT that God forgives us. Left to our own devices, we’d wander indefinitely, lost in our sins, until something happens and prompts us to reflect on our situation. Left to our own devices, we’d repent, but then we’d doubt that we are really forgiven. Our human justice is based on an economy of payment, not on an economy of gift, so we are given absolution and penances to encourage us to break with the past and to accept the idea that we are forgiven. Penances are intended to help us, not to satisfy God.

Jesus urged us to repent: when we repent, we become aware of God’s forgiveness and can shed the burden of sin. But we can’t make the existence of God’s forgiveness possible by our repentance and attempts at reparation. It’s a matter of what we manage to perceive and receive, not of what we manage to create and buy. Jesus urged us to forgive our brothers: when we become able to forgive others and ourselves, we become able to perceive God’s forgiveness towards us and understand that “my yoke is easy” is in fact true. The older brother couldn’t understand the forgiveness of his father precisely because he believed that such forgiveness is conditioned and must be earned.

 

[grannymh]

Vames, I want to leave the thread today with post 639 because I stand in awe. That entry would suffice to be the last on this thread. None of our efforts are going to convince granny that God loves and forgives unconditionally, because it is only her experience that will show her. Granny herself will have to love and forgive someone unconditionally in order to understand what we are talking about. Granny will have to find that diary from her mother, as was your experience.

And it is sad that granny is in the position of using the CCC and argument to prove that God does not love us as much as Jesus showed us from the cross, as He forgave the crowd unconditionally. In addition, granny is equating forgiveness with approval, which is an equating of God with our conscience. Granny is trying to give the Catholic point of view, but she cannot understand the position of the prodigal son’s father.

Mostly untrue.
I wonder what that would be called.

It is true that I am a real granny and a real Catholic and a real writer/editor/researcher off CAF.

At the moment, I am traveling so I do not have the time to respond. On the other hand, I have given enough citations from Scripture and from the universal Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition so that readers can check the truth for themselves.

As for misunderstanding Scripture…

 

[simpleas]

Yeah, I think I know what you’re talking about.

Some time ago I was so scared of Purgatory, not because of the concept per se, but because some terrifying old books about Purgatory that I have read (souls crying in pain and begging for release, “visions” and “private revelations” about little children burning and suffering inimaginable tortures, unfortunate souls having to be tortured until the end of the earth for a few mortal sins). There’s a Catholic church near the cemetery where my mother is buried. I attended many Masses there. I asked that priest about those “visions” and he said: NOBODY is privy to what is happening to souls after death. There is a Purgatory, but the Church doesn’t have any teaching about what Purgatory actually means for the souls, because nobody is privy to what happens to souls after death. NOBODY has ever come back to tell us what happens: all that others say is just the product of their imagination. He didn’t say that to console me: I have read Pope Benedict’s thougths about Purgatory and I understood that all these “visions” are nothing but expressions of fear or attempts to instill fear in people who don’t believe in Purgatory. Pope Benedict says: “Purgatory is not, as Tertullian thought, some kind of supra-worldly concentration camp where one is forced to undergo punishments in a more or less arbitrary fashion. Rather it is the inwardly necessary process of transformation in which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God {i.e., capable of full unity with God} and thus capable of unity with the whole communion of saints”. A loving God doesn’t need to subject souls to inimaginable, lenghty tortures. As Pope Benedict says in his enciclical Spe Salvi, Purgatory simply may be the very encounter with Christ and its real meaning is liberation, not torture: “Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves.”

If your priest says he didn’t believe the story of Adam and Eve and creation like the way it is explained in Genesis, I think he’s right. We don’t need the influence of a rebellious angel to commit sin; the rebellious angel is simply the projection of our exacerbated pride and lack of empathy that pushes us to neglect and objectify our neighbor and to forget that every creature is unique and intrinsically worthy because God created him or her that way. Who is our neighbor? An unborn child, a disabled man, a woman who aborts her child because she is convinced that a child with Down syndrome born into a poor family doesn’t stand a chance in our competitive society, a Muslim who was educated to hate Christians, an atheist who despises us Catholics as deluded people believing in an imaginary friend, a Protestant who was educated to think that we Catholics are the blind slaves of the whore of Babylon, a racist who was educated to believe that God commanded him to kill or enslave all the black people, a Catholic who was educated to believe that all the heretics must be killed. We don’t have to inherit a “fallen” nature to be able to sin. We only have to misuse our God-given natural gifts and talents: we only have to think that we are better than everyone who is not a member of our “ingroup” (Catholics, Christians, white people, males, Americans, first world people and so on). This is pride, this is “wanting to be like God”, translated as “I know better than God”: let’s discard what Jesus said, we know better. Pope Francis repeatedly says: “this is Chist’s flesh” when he encouraged priests and laypeople to learn to know and help people, any kind of people. There is no other path towards perfection. I think everyone should read and understand this post:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11392629&postcount=5

I think he does believe in Satan as he has mentioned satan in his homilies in the past.

I’m not sure about purgatory, is it mentioned in the new testament, or was it the church that said we could end up there for more purification?
It sounds exhausting in some sense that we have to endure suffering in this life, that was supposed to be a great life for us creatures to enjoy from the start with God, to die and then have to suffer some more until we can reach God.
I’d rather it just be heaven or nothing…

 

[simpleas]

On the contrary, this is limiting God’s position as Creator.

In the story of the prodigal son, you see conditions everywhere. Why? God is not limited by anything, not even by our human need for order and discipline expressed in seeing conditionalities and setting boundaries and limits everywhere. God is not contingent on anything that a creature thinks, feels, says and does. God is not even bounded by His sacraments. And in a God who is much wiser and much more generous than the wisest and most generous human being, this lack of limitations can be understood only in the light of His love towards all people: like a father who doesn’t use his superior physical and intellectual power to beat or humiliate his young son, God doesn’t use His power to crush and coerce people, but to help them to grow up. Grace is something that always precedes and always surpasses our own limitations; otherwise is not grace, but something that can be bought and earned.

And God helps us to grow up - in freedom. One can’t be forced to grow up, forced to understand, forced to love, forced to repent, forced to be grateful. Atheists use to say: “how can you pretend that you freely love your God, since you know that he punishes you if don’t love him? be honest, you just fear him and call it love!” But the story of the prodigal son is a story about the freedom of man.

The prodigal son repented and came back without being told so, without being coerced and threatened; he realized that he made a mistake, he realized that he belongs home. (That’s why need the experience of suffering and sin to grow up and grow in the knowledge of God.)
After he left home, he was delighted by his rebellion and had big hopes about his new life; at that time he couldn’t understand his father’s love and couldn’t care less about his home. (This is when we are blinded by sin; no amount of pleading or coercion can make us understand that we’re wrong.)
But eventually the son woke up, realized his situation and this prompted him to feel sorry. (Just like it happens to us, sooner or later.)
In order to earn his forgiveness, he planned to bargain and offer sacrifices: “I will say to my father: treat me like one of your hired hands”. (When we repent, we have the impression that God’s forgiveness is contingent on what we do.)
The father ignores this attempt at bargain and simply shows his love, his joy of having his son back and his unwillingness to punish the son. (God’s forgiveness doesn’t come because we managed to fulfil certain conditions; forgiveness was always there, just waiting for us to wake up, to become aware of its existence and to understand that it is a free gift.)
The older son protests, reminding the father that the younger son didn’t do anything to deserve to be received home and celebrated. (We can’t value this kind of love and forgiveness as long as we think that its existence is contingent on our repentance and penance and that we can earn it this way.)

The Sacrament of Reconciliation allows us to SPEED UP this process of waking up and reaching the moment of repentance and allows us to ACCEPT that God forgives us. Left to our own devices, we’d wander indefinitely, lost in our sins, until something happens and prompts us to reflect on our situation. Left to our own devices, we’d repent, but then we’d doubt that we are really forgiven. Our human justice is based on an economy of payment, not on an economy of gift, so we are given absolution and penances to encourage us to break with the past and to accept the idea that we are forgiven. Penances are intended to help us, not to satisfy God.

Jesus urged us to repent: when we repent, we become aware of God’s forgiveness and can shed the burden of sin. But we can’t make the existence of God’s forgiveness possible by our repentance and attempts at reparation. It’s a matter of what we manage to perceive and receive, not of what we manage to create and buy. Jesus urged us to forgive our brothers: when we become able to forgive others and ourselves, we become able to perceive God’s forgiveness towards us and understand that “my yoke is easy” is in fact true. The older brother couldn’t understand the forgiveness of his father precisely because he believed that such forgiveness is conditioned and must be earned.

Somewhere in scripture it says " if you deny me, i will deny you before my father" or words to that effect.

Isn’t this a condition of sorts?

I can’t understand how i can deny someone i have never seen, only heard about. Ok we trust in other people who did know Christ, but we have no solid evidence before our own eyes, so to accuse us of denying having known God is tough.

Please correct me if I misunderstand…