Original Sin

[OneSheep]

Sorry for my delayed response. I’ve been working long hours lately.

My quote:

No doubt, we are all hurt by someone else’s actions motivated by the pride appetite filtered through our ignorance and blindness. But no one, fhansen is hurt by an appetite, right? It is the choices people make that hurt others and the self. Inordinate love of myself (I translate “inordinate” as thinking I am better or more worthy than others, a matter of ignorance) is not going to cause pain to anyone else, but my subsequent chosen behaviors may indeed be hurtful.

I’m not sure. Did Adam start out in ignorance, become ignorant, or did he prefer ignorance to the truth? Choices are also involved in our ignorance the way I see it-all my life I’ve dealt with people preferring the truth to be a certain way, according to their likes, and proceeding accordingly, blissfully ignorant. In any case there’s an onus upon us to “become right”, to stop hurting each other; “Universal Justice” in some way demands it-and has every right to, even as He’s made it known that He’s completely on our side and willing to help us achieve it.

Since we are to believe that Adam was human, and we know that humans are born with very little knowledge, only the potential to become aware of the wisdom of the conscience within, then we can, barring the literal interpretation of Genesis, assume that Adam was born just as ignorant as the rest of us. In addition, like all of us Adam was quite capable of being automatically, unwittingly blinded by desire.

My quote:

I am saying that I see that our pride is a gift from God, this is the result of my own internal reconciliation. My “pride” (all-inclusive) is not my enemy. My ignorance and/or blindness, which are necessary ingredients in hurting self and others, could be considered my enemy, but such ignorance and blindness disappear in the light, these do not really exist, they are a “lack”. Ignorance and blindness are issues that we empowered, by faith and empathy, to overcome.

Is your pride your enemy?

Yes, it’s driven me to various errors, some quite self-destructive. IOW I can be my own worst enemy. Inordinate use of God’s gifts is the problem. The wisdom to humble ourselves, most especially before the reality and person of God, is the answer. To the extent that we do that the world turns from sin.

It sounds like you have done some hurtful things to others and/or yourself and have naturally blamed your pride, you are not alone in this. However, would a rapist be accurate in blaming his acts on his sex-drive? No, it is the rapist’s blindness to the needs and value of his victim, his blocked empathy, that is the essential ingredient to his choice to act in that way.

I am wondering what you would find if you were to revisit one of your various errors. At the time of your act, were you truly cognizant of the value and needs of yourself and/or the person you hurt?

The world also turns from sin by reconciling with our enemies.

 

[OneSheep]

It sounds paradoxical but in one sense inordinate self-love (pride) is actually self-hate. It’s hatred of the self God created us to be in favor of our own “improved” self. The distinction can appear subtle but it’s the difference between truth and falsehood, between hypocrisy, whether on a minuscule level or a huge one, and the simple truth of who we are.

If we are thinking that we are somehow an “improved” self, in terms of value or status, then this in itself is a matter of ignorance, not a matter of appetite. Are we agreeing on this?

The only self-hate I experience is when I violate my conscience. When I blame my pride, since my pride is part of myself, then I experience this self-hate, self-condemnation. I don’t see a paradox.

 

[grannymh]

Since we are to believe that Adam was human, and we know that humans are born with very little knowledge, only the potential to become aware of the wisdom of the conscience within, then we can, barring the literal interpretation of Genesis, assume that Adam was born just as ignorant as the rest of us.

The idea about a little Adam playing in a lovely garden is fascinating. It could have happened.

When we get around to reading Genesis, first three chapters, we discover that its author describes Adam’s actions when Adam was a fully developed human being with a functioning intellect and will.

 

[fhansen]

It sounds like you have done some hurtful things to others and/or yourself and have naturally blamed your pride, you are not alone in this. However, would a rapist be accurate in blaming his acts on his sex-drive? No, it is the rapist’s blindness to the needs and value of his victim, his blocked empathy, that is the essential ingredient to his choice to act in that way.

The most basic reason for the rapist’s sin can still be reduced to inordinate self-love-because that causes one to pursue what interests them-what they desire-without regard to the love of others; my worth is greater than theirs-what I want is more important than what* they* want. Pride causes the blindness IOW,.

 

[Mount_Carmel]

The most basic reason for the rapist’s sin can still be reduced to inordinate self-love-because that causes one to pursue what interests them-what they desire-without regard to the love of others; my worth is greater than theirs-what I want is more important than what* they* want. Pride causes the blindness IOW,.

Yes, ‘Pride comes before the Fall’ - it did for Satan and those fallen Angels and it is what blinds ‘us’ as well from the Love of God. It leads to a ‘religion of the self’ that unless addressed will lead to self-alienation from the source and nourishment of love and spiritual life, that is God.

 

[simpleas]

From the CCC.
402 All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290
.
If Christ has freed us from the guilt of Adams sin, why are we told we are born with O.S?
Not to say we are not inclined to sin, as its in our human nature,and we need Christs help to stay on the right path, but to me Christ freed us from that first sin, the disobeying of a command from God, by obeying.

 

[OneSheep]

The most basic reason for the rapist’s sin can still be reduced to inordinate self-love-because that causes one to pursue what interests them-what they desire-without regard to the love of others; my worth is greater than theirs-what I want is more important than what* they* want. Pride causes the blindness IOW,.

So, when I am in a “desire” mode (think Gollum of Lord of the Rings), everything is about the ring. My desire automatically blocks my empathy, and pride is “one” of the desires, or appetities (pride =desire for status, control, autonomy, territory, etc). I am not saying that our blindness destines us, because with awareness I have learned that when I am feeling negatively about someone or I am not considering their needs, then there is something wrong, a blindness has occurred, and it is time to repent and/or forgive. I am definitely not perfect at this, and I hope that those around me will point out that I am not considering the needs and value of someone. In this sense, we perhaps all somewhat depend on those around us to point out when we are blind to the needs and humanity of a fellow human. If I start talking bad about someone, fhansen, call me on it, it is a blindness.

Yes, I agree, pride (the appetite) causes the blindness. To me, the “inordinate” is the blindness itself. To me, the capacity for such blindness is not a chosen condition; the blindness itself has its role in our well-being, just like the appetites that add up to what we call “pride” also have a role in our well-being and survival. I have explained the mechanism behind this elsewhere in this thread.

People reading this may have a negative feeling about the above paragraph, because ordinarily it is self-blame, self-condemnation, that helps our conscience keep our behaviors in check. We want to blame, feel negatively, condemn, etc. our blindness and the pride appetite that triggers it, because if we do not, we are “making excuses”, trying to escape punishment. However, this is a battle against the conscience itself. Can I forgive,… or shall I hang onto blame? Can I let go of my own self-condemnation, and reconcile with all my drives and capacities? If my pride appetites and blindness capacity are my enemies, can I reconcile with these, and can I come to see that all of what I am is (as is everyone else) a gift, in totality a creation of God?

 

[OneSheep]

The idea about a little Adam playing in a lovely garden is fascinating. It could have happened.

When we get around to reading Genesis, first three chapters, we discover that its author describes Adam’s actions when Adam was a fully developed human being with a functioning intellect and will.

Stay with that, granny. The literal interpretation is important to you, it works for you, and you defend it well.

 

[grannymh]

From the CCC.
402 All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290
.
If Christ has freed us from the guilt of Adams sin, why are we told we are born with O.S?
Not to say we are not inclined to sin, as its in our human nature,and we need Christs help to stay on the right path, but to me Christ freed us from that first sin, the disobeying of a command from God, by obeying.

Original sin changed Adam and Eve’s original state of human nature.

Because Adam, with his spouse Eve, are the founders of the human race, they transmitted their changed state of human nature to their children.

When the human children of Adam and Eve gave birth to their children, they, as parents, transmitted their state of human nature which had been received from Adam and Eve.

Human children of human parents receive their state of human nature from their parents, who received their state of human nature from … going back to Adam and Eve. That is the way “descendants” operate.

Today, human children of human parents have the state of human nature which was originally that of our first parents. This has been transmitted to them through their line of ancestors going back to the original humans, Adam and Eve, and their state of human nature.

Therefore, if a person living today is human, then that person has the state of human nature which has been transmitted from human to human through the centuries.

 

[fhansen]

From the CCC.
402 All men are implicated in Adam’s sin, as St. Paul affirms: “By one man’s disobedience many (that is, all men) were made sinners”: "sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned."289 The Apostle contrasts the universality of sin and death with the universality of salvation in Christ. "Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men."290
.
If Christ has freed us from the guilt of Adams sin, why are we told we are born with O.S?
Not to say we are not inclined to sin, as its in our human nature,and we need Christs help to stay on the right path, but to me Christ freed us from that first sin, the disobeying of a command from God, by obeying.

Because God likewise seeks our obedience-that’s the whole point, in fact, God restoring His creation, not merely forgiving it. As Adam freely fell, we must freely rise, impossible without His help and yet still up to us as to whether or not we’ll accept His help, whether we’ll begin to turn back , and follow Him, as Jesus did. So our freedom from OS begins with an act, an act of faith, formally the act of Baptism, sometimes referred to as the sacrament of faith.

 

[grannymh]

**Since I described the transmission of Original Sin, **
I will continue post 1051 with a few important Catholic teachings .
Regarding the state of human nature and its destiny to live in joy eternal with our Creator in heaven.

Human nature was created in the “image of God.” In the beginning, Adam was established in God’s friendship. The goal of Adam’s life was to live forever in God’s heavenly presence. (CCC, 355 -357; CCC, 1730)

Adam began life in the state of friendship with God known as original holiness. Adam freely broke his relationship with God by freely committing the Original Sin. Consequently, he lost the state of his original holiness. Original Sin, because it shattered Adam’s immediate relationship with God, affected Adam’s human nature in that he lost his state of original holiness. That lost or deprivation of original holiness is known as Original Sin. (CCC, 404-406) That loss is what has been transmitted from Adam to us, human to human.

This state of original holiness was meant for all human nature following Adam. (CCC, 404) Instead, Adam and Eve’s descendants contracted Adam’s state of human nature following Original Sin. This state of human nature was passed through the human line of descendants. Thus we can say that we, being human, have the state of Adam’s human nature. (CCC, 405)

BUT – the story does not end with our human nature being in the contracted (from Adam and Eve) state of Original Sin.

BUT – our human nature has not been totally corrupted by that Original Sin.

God did not abandon Adam and Eve and their descendants. (CCC, 410)

The Sacrament of Baptism “erases” the state of Original Sin and brings us into the originally intended union with our Divine Creator. God did not change human nature’s goal of a permanent residence in heaven. It is our free choice of committing Mortal Sin which destroys our state of holiness, the Divine life in our soul. (CCC, Glossary, Sanctifying Grace, page 898 and Mortal Sin, page 889)

It is the consequences for human nature, transmitted from human to human, which persist in our human nature today and summon us to spiritual battle. ( CCC, 407-410)

 

[simpleas]

Thanks to both of you for your answers.

While I understand now about O.S and what the church says, i’m yet to understand what Christ actually did. If we are told that all men were in Adam and so all men sinned, now all men are in Christ who fixed what Adam had broken. But this doesn’t mean that we are now born a new, we still are born in the contracted state of that O.S.
So what did all the suffering of Christ mean. What does aquittal mean in the CCC if it doesn’t release the O.S of Adams disobedience.
When a child is born, we don’t think of that child being possessed with the stain of O.S, we see a new life, pure and holy already, and we baptise the child into the life of Christ.
The baptism rite includes the prayer of Exorcism :

• Almighty and ever-living God, you sent your only Son into the world to cast out the power of Satan, spirit of evil, to rescue man from the kingdom of darkness, and bring him into the splendor of your kingdom of light. We pray for this child: set him (her) free from original sin, make him (her) a temple of your glory, and send your Holy Spirit to dwell with him (her). We ask this through Christ our Lord. *

Christ has already set the child free by becoming the new Adam imo.
Christ is the way the truth and the life, so why does the church teach that we are still born with O.S of Adam. We are responsible for our own sin, we choose to follow Christ or go our own way, so why hold onto the importants of what Adam did, its more important what Christ said and did for the future of us Human Beings…

 

[simpleas]

So, when I am in a “desire” mode (think Gollum of Lord of the Rings), everything is about the ring. My desire automatically blocks my empathy, and pride is “one” of the desires, or appetities (pride =desire for status, control, autonomy, territory, etc). I am not saying that our blindness destines us, because with awareness I have learned that when I am feeling negatively about someone or I am not considering their needs, then there is something wrong, a blindness has occurred, and it is time to repent and/or forgive. I am definitely not perfect at this, and I hope that those around me will point out that I am not considering the needs and value of someone. In this sense, we perhaps all somewhat depend on those around us to point out when we are blind to the needs and humanity of a fellow human. If I start talking bad about someone, fhansen, call me on it, it is a blindness.

Yes, I agree, pride (the appetite) causes the blindness. To me, the “inordinate” is the blindness itself. To me, the capacity for such blindness is not a chosen condition; the blindness itself has its role in our well-being, just like the appetites that add up to what we call “pride” also have a role in our well-being and survival. I have explained the mechanism behind this elsewhere in this thread.

People reading this may have a negative feeling about the above paragraph, because ordinarily it is self-blame, self-condemnation, that helps our conscience keep our behaviors in check. We want to blame, feel negatively, condemn, etc. our blindness and the pride appetite that triggers it, because if we do not, we are “making excuses”, trying to escape punishment. However, this is a battle against the conscience itself. Can I forgive,… or shall I hang onto blame? Can I let go of my own self-condemnation, and reconcile with all my drives and capacities? If my pride appetites and blindness capacity are my enemies, can I reconcile with these, and can I come to see that all of what I am is (as is everyone else) a gift, in totality a creation of God?

Onesheep :
You don’t act like Gollum when you desire something do you? lol

You’re very big on forgiveness, which is great, but there are many situations in life that I still ponder on that question many posts back. Can we as humans fully forgive?
Might start a thread on that question.

 

[fhansen]

Thanks to both of you for your answers.

While I understand now about O.S and what the church says, i’m yet to understand what Christ actually did. If we are told that all men were in Adam and so all men sinned, now all men are in Christ who fixed what Adam had broken. But this doesn’t mean that we are now born a new, we still are born in the contracted state of that O.S.
So what did all the suffering of Christ mean. What does aquittal mean in the CCC if it doesn’t release the O.S of Adams disobedience.
When a child is born, we don’t think of that child being possessed with the stain of O.S, we see a new life, pure and holy already, and we baptise the child into the life of Christ.
The baptism rite includes the prayer of Exorcism :

• Almighty and ever-living God, you sent your only Son into the world to cast out the power of Satan, spirit of evil, to rescue man from the kingdom of darkness, and bring him into the splendor of your kingdom of light. We pray for this child: set him (her) free from original sin, make him (her) a temple of your glory, and send your Holy Spirit to dwell with him (her). We ask this through Christ our Lord. *

Christ has already set the child free by becoming the new Adam imo.
Christ is the way the truth and the life, so why does the church teach that we are still born with O.S of Adam. We are responsible for our own sin, we choose to follow Christ or go our own way, so why hold onto the importants of what Adam did, its more important what Christ said and did for the future of us Human Beings…

According to scripture we were all held captive until Christ came. The separation from God that occurred at the Fall was effective in us all. So Jesus came to reconcile man with God-to heal this separation-so God’s Spirit may dwell again within us. IOW, the “guilt” of OS is no more than the lack of communion with God we’re all born with, which is why we don’t know Him directly, intimately, when we’re born, and which is why faith is so crucial in our beginning to know Him again. So Christ came and did the work, Atonement, “at-one-ment” is accomplished, so long as we then accept the offer, responding in faith, and proceed to turn and follow Him.

 

[grannymh]

Thanks to both of you for your answers.

While I understand now about O.S and what the church says, i’m yet to understand what Christ actually did. If we are told that all men were in Adam and so all men sinned, now all men are in Christ who fixed what Adam had broken. But this doesn’t mean that we are now born a new, we still are born in the contracted state of that O.S.
So what did all the suffering of Christ mean. What does aquittal mean in the CCC if it doesn’t release the O.S of Adams disobedience.
When a child is born, we don’t think of that child being possessed with the stain of O.S, we see a new life, pure and holy already, and we baptise the child into the life of Christ.
The baptism rite includes the prayer of Exorcism :

*Almighty and ever-living God, you sent your only Son into the world to cast out the power of Satan, spirit of evil, to rescue man from the kingdom of darkness, and bring him into the splendor of your kingdom of light. We pray for this child: set him (her) free from original sin, make him (her) a temple of your glory, and send your Holy Spirit to dwell with him (her). We ask this through Christ our Lord. *

Christ has already set the child free by becoming the new Adam imo.
Christ is the way the truth and the life, so why does the church teach that we are still born with O.S of Adam. We are responsible for our own sin, we choose to follow Christ or go our own way, so why hold onto the importants of what Adam did, its more important what Christ said and did for the future of us Human Beings…

For readers information.

This prayer is not a prayer of Exorcism.
Almighty and ever-living God, you sent your only Son into the world to cast out the power of Satan, spirit of evil, to rescue man from the kingdom of darkness, and bring him into the splendor of your kingdom of light. We pray for this child: set him (her) free from original sin, make him (her) a temple of your glory, and send your Holy Spirit to dwell with him (her). We ask this through Christ our Lord.

It is a petition to God which contains a marvelous summary of Catholic truths found in the Church established by Christ our Lord.

 

[simpleas]

For readers information.

This prayer is not a prayer of Exorcism.
Almighty and ever-living God, you sent your only Son into the world to cast out the power of Satan, spirit of evil, to rescue man from the kingdom of darkness, and bring him into the splendor of your kingdom of light. We pray for this child: set him (her) free from original sin, make him (her) a temple of your glory, and send your Holy Spirit to dwell with him (her). We ask this through Christ our Lord.

It is a petition to God which contains a marvelous summary of Catholic truths found in the Church established by Christ our Lord.

This is where I found the prayer :

catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/TextContents/Index/4/SubIndex/67/TextIndex/7

 

[simpleas]

According to scripture we were all held captive until Christ came. The separation from God that occurred at the Fall was effective in us all. So Jesus came to reconcile man with God-to heal this separation-so God’s Spirit may dwell again within us. IOW, the “guilt” of OS is no more than the lack of communion with God we’re all born with, which is why we don’t know Him directly, intimately, when we’re born, and which is why faith is so crucial in our beginning to know Him again. So Christ came and did the work, Atonement, “at-one-ment” is accomplished, so long as we then accept the offer, responding in faith, and proceed to turn and follow Him.

Thanks Fhansen,

I think I need to pray about this for a while.

 

[fhansen]

This is where I found the prayer :

catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/TextContents/Index/4/SubIndex/67/TextIndex/7

The Church, east and west, has always used prayers of exorcism at Baptism.

 

[grannymh]

This is where I found the prayer :

catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/TextContents/Index/4/SubIndex/67/TextIndex/7

Thank you. I was expecting confusion because of the misunderstanding about Original Sin as taught by the Catholic Church.

Here is a link to the types of prayers used in exorcism.
Please see “Rite of Exorcism”
catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=683

Notice that the priest is speaking to a person already proved to be possessed by demons. This being the case, the prayer of exorcism is directed to the devil.
“I command you, unclean spirit, whoever you are, along with all your minions now attacking this servant of God, …”

snip

I cast you out, unclean spirit, along with every Satanic power of the enemy, every spectre from hell, and all your fell companions; in the name of our Lord Jesus +Christ.
Even a quick glance will show a casual observer that a prayer of exorcism is nothing like this prayer.
Almighty and ever-living God, you sent your only Son into the world to cast out the power of Satan, spirit of evil, to rescue man from the kingdom of darkness, and bring him into the splendor of your kingdom of light. We pray for this child: set him (her) free from original sin, make him (her) a temple of your glory, and send your Holy Spirit to dwell with him (her). We ask this through Christ our Lord.

Because some people do not accept the fullness of Original Sin, specifically mentioned in this prayer, they miss the difference between asking God to “cast out the power of Satan, spirit of evil, to rescue man from the kingdom of darkness…” (CCC, 395; CCC, 407) and an exorcism in which the spirit of evil is actually residing within the individual person present.

Just because the word “exorcism” can be applied to getting rid of Satan in our entire world which, by the way, can be seen as a “kingdom of darkness” – it cannot be assumed that the prayer is commanding the devil to leave a person about to be baptized.

The exception is that when a person who is truly possessed by Satan, the rite of exorcism would normally be performed separately from the reception of the Sacrament. In any case, we cannot confuse Original Sin with the residence of Satan.

A prayer, also said in conjunction with Baptism, is the “Renunciation of Sin and Profession of Faith.” Like the petition to God, it recognizes the power of Satan and his kingdom of God.

 

[grannymh]

Big error at end of post 1061



The editing time expired as I was inserting a correction in the last sentence.

The last sentence should have read – Like the petition to God, it recognizes the powr of Satan and his kingdom of darkness and the kingdom of God.

Maybe that was a sign that I should add another thought to post 1061.

It looks like this prayer said during the ceremony accompanying the Sacrament of Baptism –
Almighty and ever-living God, you sent your only Son into the world to cast out the power of Satan, spirit of evil, to rescue man from the kingdom of darkness, and bring him into the splendor of your kingdom of light. We pray for this child: set him (her) free from original sin, make him (her) a temple of your glory, and send your Holy Spirit to dwell with him (her). We ask this through Christ our Lord.
– when it prays for freedom from original sin – is like CCC, 404 -405 which assures us that the transmission of the contracted state of Original Sin has been erased by Baptism. From that point, we need to call on the graces of Baptism in our daily lives as adults. Yes, absolutely. Baptism makes us the temple of God’s glory via Sanctifying Grace. This gift, of sharing in the divine life of the Trinity, continues the work of making us Christlike. Not only that, but being in the state of Sanctifying Grace, we can receive the Holy Eucharist. We need the Real Presence of Jesus so that we can continue in our spiritual battle against the limited power of “the evil one.”

While the state of Original Sin has been removed, the consequences for our human nature persist. Our wounded human nature needs the Sacraments of the Catholic Church in order to live our spirituality.

Properly understood, the doctrines surrounding Original Sin can lead us to eternal joy in the Presence of God as He is in heaven.