Orthodox/Catholic Marriage

[OrbisNonSufficit]

While we don’t call it the “living magisterium” we compare to what came before us

So do Protestants, except for them only authentic thing that “came before us” is Bible (for most). However there are also Anglicans who take into account Church History and Lutherans who also read Church Fathers. Yes, there is no unbroken lineage in them as it is in Orthodox Churches but other than that, parallel exists.

As for the Protestants, you’ll find they almost always provide a caveat with regard to the their acceptance of Councils

So do we. Fifth Ecumenical Council states this:

We further declare that we hold fast to the decrees of the four Councils, and in every way follow the holy Fathers, Athanasius, Hilary, Basil, Gregory the Theologian, Gregory of Nyssa, Ambrose, Theophilus, John (Chrysostom) of Constantinople, Cyril, Augustine, Proclus, Leo and their writings on the true faith.

Now we know that Eastern Orthodox do not accept Augustinian theology of Original Sin, but Church Council endorsed that. One Orthodox poster also once pointed out to me that there is one Father in the list who also had some errors in his writings which Catholics don’t accept either - St. Ambrose’s erroneous opinion that the baptism in the Name of one of the Trinity is valid. That means that both our Churches have some principles to applying Councils. It is true that Fathers of this Council didn’t have to be Augustinian to say this- they merely knew him as a Saint who taught and as such included him in the list. But that just proves my point.

I still don’t understand the only authority that seems to count is authority that can make an immediate infallible decision, as if there’s no value in the entirety of the church taking time and reflection to ensure one follows in the footsteps of those who came before us.

Exactly. That is Orthodox, and also Protestant, position. I don’t see anything wrong with it from Orthodox perspective. Protestants simply use similar system to what East adopted. Eastern Orthodoxy is known for sticking to those writings and not needing immediate authority so that is why you being offended surprised me. It is principle of Orthodoxy which also applies to some more traditional Protestants.

 

[ziapueblo]

@Isaac14,

If we Orthodox have all of a sudden become sola Scriptura Christians then I guess we can say that Catholics are sola Papam Christians?

Ridiculous of course but just exaggerating to make a point!

ZP

 

[Isaac14]

Protestants simply use similar system to what East adopted. Eastern Orthodoxy is known for sticking to those writings and not needing immediate authority so that is why you being offended surprised me.

You’re not hurting my feelings. But I also don’t think you’re making an argument that any Orthodox is going to take seriously.

However there are also Anglicans who take into account Church History and Lutherans who also read Church Fathers.

And yet, unlike the Orthodox, who supposedly exercise authority in the same manner, these have failed to maintain the Apostolic faith. They don’t venerate the Theotokos, saints, images, etc. Nor do they seek the intercession of the Theotokos and saints. They’ve given up apostolic succession. It was a Lutheran pastor who denied the very divinity of Christ that caused me to seek out the Orthodox church.

How then have the Orthodox been able to maintain the Apostolic faith for 2000 years if our system of authority is no different than Protestants? Or, put differently, how can that supposedly similar system of authority actually be the same (or even similar) if the fruits are so radically different?

 

[Elvis_George]

do EOs consider OOs to be closer than say Rome?

At least in point of view, yes. The Agreements between the Syriac Orthodox church regarding marriage and the sacrements prove so…So I can still confess to a Jacobite priest, recieve holy communion from a Jacobite Priest, and marry a Jacobite women with no problems what so ever…It must also be known that we were one of the first churches to accept the fact that Miaphysism isn’t a heresy, and this can be seen with the numerous agreements we have with the SOC and all the other OO churches.

 

[Mary888]

I read there is an agreement between RCC and EOC, about marriages with Catholics in which it states that the religion of the father prevails over that of the child. This agreement dating from early 20th century methinks.
Officially since the Synod of Crete the EOC only allows marriages with non-Orthodox Christians only if the children will be baptized and raised Orthodox with the free agreement of the partner who isn’t Orthodox AND with the approval of the Bishop for the Orthodox partner to marry outside EOC. I am surprised your EOC friend said some personal reasons for not wanting his kids be raised outside EOC and not the official rules of the Church.
EOC does not approve of personal views in terms of Sacraments, such as marriage, so your friend maybe should know this? Why would he invoke self-made reasons?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

You’re not hurting my feelings.

I am glad.

And yet, unlike the Orthodox, who supposedly exercise authority in the same manner, these have failed to maintain the Apostolic faith.

Sure. I do not deny that. My argument was about authority solely. Not about Apostolic Succession.

How then have the Orthodox been able to maintain the Apostolic faith for 2000 years if our system of authority is no different than Protestants?

Unbroken lineage in my opinion plays a big role. Fact that unlike in liberal Protestantism, you guys know Scripture is Tradition and not sole authority. Anyway, two similar systems can lead to different outcomes.

 

[Isaac14]

Anyway, two similar systems can lead to different outcomes.

Even such radically different outcomes? My last question to stands unanswered:

how can that supposedly similar system of authority actually be the same (or even similar) if the fruits are so radically different?

Edit to add:

My argument was about authority solely. Not about Apostolic Succession.

But is not authority in the church intimately linked to apostolic succession?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

My last question to stands unanswered:

Unbroken lineage in my opinion plays a big role. Fact that unlike in liberal Protestantism, you guys know Scripture is Tradition and not sole authority. Anyway, two similar systems can lead to different outcomes.

But is not authority in the church intimately linked to apostolic succession?

It is, but system of authority is not. Apostolic Succession mandates who is in authority not how does authority work.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I guess we could say that Catholics believe in “Councils, Church Fathers, Scripture and the Pope” alone!

Yes, I agree. Though that also means that if we hold Ecumenical Council, we are sure it’s Ecumenical day it ends. That’s the “immediate” part. But yes, your comment is accurate.

My point is that by not adding Pope one can describe both Orthodox and some more traditional Protestants at the same time. Add Pope and you aren’t explaining anything but Catholicism. Not saying it’s bad or something… it’s not meant to be offensive. It’s just observation that Orthodox and traditional Protestant systems are same in this regard.

 

[Isaac14]

It is, but system of authority is not. Apostolic Succession mandates who is in authority not how does authority work.

But that does not answer the question I have twice repeated: How can the system of authority of Orthodox and Protestants be the same when the fruits are so radically different? The Orthodox alone have maintained the Apostolic faith while the protestants have all, to varying degrees, fallen away from that faith (I’ve already given examples above). Does not the result indicate that there is indeed a difference in how that authority has worked?

Though that also means that if we hold Ecumenical Council, we are sure it’s Ecumenical day it ends. That’s the “immediate” part.

Why, then, does the Second Vatican Council garner so much controversy? Since it was an Ecumenical Council, it should be a done deal right?

 

[Margaret_Ann]

The fruits are different but radically (i.e. from the root) the same in the sense that there is no ultimate authority. To paraphrase HST: In Catholicism, the buck stops here (i.e. with the Pope). In Orthodoxy and Protestantism, you don’t know where the buck stops.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Why, then, does the Second Vatican Council garner so much controversy?

Because it was first non-infallible Ecumenical Council in history. But that is being either hyperbolised or understated by many which results into some treating it as infallible and some not treating it as Ecumenical.

Then again, was there ever Ecumenical Council that garnered no controversy? I dare say that most notable Ecumenical Councils resulted into even more controversy than V2.

But that does not answer the question I have twice repeated: How can the system of authority of Orthodox and Protestants be the same when the fruits are so radically different?

Anyway, two similar systems can lead to different outcomes.

To emphasize my point, my brother and me could both be rolling a dice. How can I throw 6 if he throws 1 if our approach is similar?

And I personally also attribute it to fact that Schism with Orthodoxy was gradual and that there was unbroken lineage of hierarchy… with Protestantism none of those applies. So in my opinion that is why fruits are different… not because there is some difference in system of Orthodoxy and say Anglicanism.

 

[Isaac14]

To emphasize my point, my brother and me could both be rolling a dice. How can I throw 6 if he throws 1 if our approach is similar?

I don’t even know how to respond. You mean to say that someway, somehow Orthodoxy managed to, by random, come up correct every time when all the various protestants couldn’t? Seriously?

Because it was first non-infallible Ecumenical Council in history.

But you said:

Though that also means that if we hold Ecumenical Council, we are sure it’s Ecumenical day it ends

The goalpost always moves.

: In Catholicism, the buck stops here (i.e. with the Pope). In Orthodoxy and Protestantism, you don’t know where the buck stops.

And yet, somehow (apparently by random chance), Orthodoxy despite not having anywhere for the buck to stop got it right? It beggars belief.

 

[Elvis_George]

What about when an Orthodox calls another Orthodox schismatic?

There 2 churches have stopped their sacremental relationships

Jacobite faction decides to end all relations with the Orthodox

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Margaret_Ann:

: In Catholicism, the buck stops here (i.e. with the Pope). In Orthodoxy and Protestantism, you don’t know where the buck stops.

And yet, somehow (apparently by random chance), Orthodoxy despite not having anywhere for the buck to stop got it right? It beggars belief.

1. There’s no such thing as “random chance”.
2. Orthodoxy is closer to Catholicism than most religious bodies but did not get it “right” on divorce & remarriage + other issues which have been brought up in this thread.
3. It beggars belief that we’re still divided after almost a thousand years of separation. That’s what is truly heartbreaking.

 

[Isaac14]

There’s no such thing as “random chance”.

ANd yet, that is exactly what Orbis seems to be stating above. But I agree completely with you.

Orthodoxy is closer to Catholicism than most religious bodies but did not get it “right” on divorce & remarriage + other issues which have been brought up in this thread.

Don’t need to rehash this, other than to say it’s an issue I’ve lived through. To get permission to remarry, the Orthodox investigation covered remarkably similar to ground to what the Catholic Tribunal did so that my now wife (who is Catholic) could have permission to marry me. The end result was the same, but different terminology was used.

It beggars belief that we’re still divided after almost a thousand years of separation. That’s what is truly heartbreaking.

Indeed it is.

 

[Alexandria2020]

There 2 churches have stopped their sacremental relationships

How does that work? When both Jacobites and Malankara Orthodox are part of Oriental Orthodoxy communion?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

You mean to say that someway, somehow Orthodoxy managed to, by random , come up correct every time when all the various protestants couldn’t?

No. I’ll just quote myself again because you probably missed it again…

And I personally also attribute it to fact that Schism with Orthodoxy was gradual and that there was unbroken lineage of hierarchy… with Protestantism none of those applies. So in my opinion that is why fruits are different… not because there is some difference in system of Orthodoxy and say Anglicanism.

But you said:

Infallible =/= Ecumenical. Not necessarily.

The end result was the same, but different terminology was used.

That matters heavily because theology behind each process is different. Some Protestants use same words of institution and matter of “Sacrament” as Catholic Priests do… yet their Eucharist is invalid.

 

[Elvis_George]

When both Jacobites and Malankara Orthodox are part of Oriental Orthodoxy communion?

I mean the ROC did the same thing with the Patriarch of Constantinople.

 

[Alexandria2020]

I mean the ROC did the same thing with the Patriarch of Constantinople.

Gotcha. So it’s similar to that.