Orthodox catholics

[TEPO]

Of course you’re free to have your own opinion. But again, I ask you, is the Body and Blood of our Lord, in an Orthodox Church (the Catholic Church does indeed teach that the Orthodox have valid sacraments) somehow inferior to the Body and Blood of our Lord in a Catholic Church? Surely not (to say otherwise would, in my opinion, be blasphemous). So since it is the case that the sacrament is the same, and indeed, the prayers, in spite of what you erroneously stated previously, that effect the sacrament are not different from Catholic prayers (since the Eastern Catholics use the same prayers, it seems to be that your opinion is simply unfounded.

Well, you can’t have an opinion on blasphemy. It either is or it isn’t.

 

[Vico]

Eucharist has a few meanings:

Greek eucharistia, gratitude.

The Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, which is called thanksgiving (Eucharist) because Christ “gave thanks,” at the Mystical Supper by it, so it is the supreme object and act of Christian gratitude.

The Eucharist is also The Eucharistic synaxis, because the Eucharist is celebrated amid the assembly of the faithful, which is the visible expression of the Church. If those faithful are not joined in the fullness of the faith of the visible Church (united with the Pope of Rome) then the Eucharistic synaxis is lacking as a visible expression of the Church.

 

[RyanBlack]

Well, you can’t have an opinion on blasphemy. It either is or it isn’t.

Well then, it’s blasphemous.

 

[Peter_J]

The hypothetical situation was if it were possible to do it anonymously without such pretence. It was already said at the beginning that this is not the case in the orthodox church and then it became if it were, then I would. The situation imagined was like in a Catholic church where no such “checks” exist at communion. So no. **No deception since no disguise is involved. **

I think that depends. Earlier I mentioned something that happened several years ago,

Many years ago, a fellow parishioner mentioned to our (Catholic) parish priest that a couple of Anglican friends would be at the next liturgy, and asked if it would be alright for them to receive communion. His answer was “Don’t tell me anything I don’t need to know.” (I.e. don’t tell me that they’re Anglican.) Quite frankly, I really wasn’t too keen on that approach at the time, and I’m still not.

Now, even though I’m not keen on that approach, I can’t fault the Anglicans in question with respect to honesty. After all, Fr X pretty much said If you’re Anglican and you want to receive communion, then don’t tell me that you’re Anglican.
But then, finding an Orthodox priest who shares Fr X’s approach would be quite difficult – even more difficult, I would assume, then finding an Orthodox priest who wouldn’t ask whether you’re Orthodox or not.

 

[Peter_J]

No, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying when we attend those Churches, we must be careful not to accept their traditions as truth, thus denying our own and falling into conversion FROM the universal Catholic Church

Actually, this may very well earn you a standing ovation from Orthodox posters. Only thing is, we Catholics are a bit more reluctant. Specifically, many Catholics believe that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are really the same.

 

[TEPO]

Well then, it’s blasphemous.

But if the Orthodox only allow their own to receive (sometimes even only those in that particular diocese), then that consecration was not blessed With the Spirit of unity through “one body one Spirit” in Christ…

Ephesians 4:4
“with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love,
striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peacene body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.”

If it was not blessed in that Spirit, then it would be proper for a Catholic to receive Communion only in a Catholic Church… Unless he absolutely had to use the Orthodox.

With that said, I think it would be wrong to equate the two as equal. To instruct Catholics otherwise might be sinful.

 

[RyanBlack]

But if the Orthodox only allow their own to receive (sometimes even only those in that particular diocese), then that consecration was not blessed With the Spirit of unity through “one body one Spirit” in Christ…

Ephesians 4:4
“with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love,
striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peacene body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.”

If it was not blessed in that Spirit, then it would be proper for a Catholic to receive Communion only in a Catholic Church… Unless he absolutely had to use the Orthodox.

With that said, I think it would be wrong to equate the two as equal. To instruct Catholics otherwise might be sinful.

Your argument could just as easily be turned against the Catholic Church on the basis of its refusal to admit Protestants to Holy Communion. After all, they are baptized with the same baptism. Furthermore, with what Spirit is the Orthodox Divine Liturgy blessed? There is one Holy Spirit, and that same Holy Spirit is invoked in both Churches, and it is by the power of that same Holy Spirit that the mere bread and wine that are placed upon Orthodox altars becomes the Body and Blood of our Lord. Is that one and the same Holy Spirit not the Spirit of unity? Finally, I would add both that the mere fact that the Catholic Church is willing to admit the Orthodox to Holy Communion does not change the fact that the Catholic Church herself admits that the two Churches are in fact, not in communion, and that Catholics are no less culpable for that fact than are Orthodox.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Just to make one thing clear. Not once on this entire thread have I suggested that I or any Catholic could, should, or would either hypothetically or physically ever receive Communion in an Orthodox Church at all. Not even with permission by their Bishop. I’ve already gone back through the entire thread and checked for myself just to make sure.

I apologize, then, for misrepresenting your position. I assure you it was accidental.

We must treat Catholics who inquire about Orthodox Sacraments with caution.

I agree with this sentence. Inquiring about Orthodox Sacraments, though, and stating that Catholics are or should be entitled to receiving them even if their church says no, are two different things.

There is no joy in making that observation.

No, indeed there isn’t…

No, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying when we attend those Churches, we must be careful not to accept their traditions as truth, thus denying our own and falling into conversion FROM the universal Catholic Church… This is not what the Pope has called for.

Acknowledging without qualification that guests should follow their rules, and that we have no right to their Eucharist if they don’t want to offer it to us, in no way comes close to the danger of indifferentism, though…

I’m not sure how there could even be a superior or inferior Eucharist. The Body of Christ surely cannot have categories of superiority and inferiority applied to it.

I agree. For what it’s worth, I believe TEPO is mistaken on this point. What the Roman Catholic Church thinks you guys are lacking has nothing to do with the Eucharist.

I believe that Orthodoxy is right and Catholicism is not (in so far as they differ), but I would never tell a Catholic not to come to one of our liturgies, if they wanted to do that. In fact, I have encouraged Catholic and Protestant friends to do so, because it is a unique experience for them and so they’re likely to gain a bit of perspective as a result. I would explain to them beforehand that they cannot receive communion (though we don’t have to do that with the two Catholics who regularly attend here at St. Bishoy, because they know that already), but aside from that one prohibition, why should we **not **want them to be with us? That is the first thing that anybody from church says if I bring up having met a new person recently (I only moved to Albuquerque about a year ago, so that’s still happening): “Will you invite them to come visit us?” We love our faith and our church, so of course it is open to anyone who wants to experience it, provided that they follow our rules concerning communion (and that’s really the only thing; visitors don’t have to take their shoes off like we do, since they won’t be approaching the sanctuary). So we don’t have the kind of adversarial relationship with the local non-Orthodox Christians that you might expect if you read some of the posts in this thread, and, having read those posts, I’m really, really glad about that.

You are all welcome to St. Bishoy COC in New Mexico, by the way. Give us a few more months and we may even have our own building (finally! after 16 years!), God willing.

Thanks, dzheremi!

You see, you can’t do that here. It’s called prothlesyzing.

TEPO, I really don’t think that constitutes proselytizing. He just invited anyone who would want to come visit to visit his church. That’s not proselytism.

How is it odd when the prayer used to consecrate it is a different prayer than the one the Orthodox use. So I should believe then that the prayers the Orthodox use in their doctrines are just as good as the Catholic doctrines…? I cannot.

You do know that some Catholic churches use their prayer, too, right?

The Russian Greek Catholic Church has no bishops of her own, so they are under the care of their local Latin bishop. A Russian Catholic on this very forum has informed us that due to the fact that they have no hierarchy to approve liturgical texts, they simply use the Russian Orthodox ones.

Specifically, many Catholics believe that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are really the same.

Peter, I’m not sure that’s an accurate summary of those Catholics’ position. I sure don’t know any Catholic who thinks that Catholic Christianity and Orthodox Christianity are the same.

Some - many? - Catholics, however, would claim that we share the same faith. The Orthodox, of course, maintain that we do not share the same faith.

But even if the former are right, that doesn’t make us “the same,” does it? Our theology, customs, spirituality, liturgy, beliefs, etc. pretty indisputably differ.

 

[Peter_J]

But if the Orthodox only allow their own to receive (sometimes even only those in that particular diocese),

But if the Orthodox only allow their own to receive
…
then that consecration was not blessed With the Spirit of unity through “one body one Spirit” in Christ…

Interesting. Does the same reasoning work the other way? That is to say, if tomorrow Rome decided that Catholic communion is only for Catholics, does it follow that our consecrations would not be blessed with the Spirit of unity through “one body one Spirit” in Christ?

With that said, I think it would be wrong to equate the two as equal. To instruct Catholics otherwise might be sinful.

I’m not saying that Catholicism and Orthodoxy are the same, I merely raise that as a theoretical possibility (albeit one that Orthodox firmly reject).

 

[Peter_J]

Peter, I’m not sure that’s an accurate summary of those Catholics’ position. I sure don’t know any Catholic who thinks that Catholic Christianity and Orthodox Christianity are the same.

Some - many? - Catholics, however, would claim that we share the same faith. The Orthodox, of course, maintain that we do not share the same faith.
**
But even if the former are right, that doesn’t make us “the same,” does it? Our theology, customs, spirituality, liturgy, beliefs, etc. pretty indisputably differ.**

I don’t want to say that you’re nit-picking but

 

[TEPO]

Interesting. Does the same reasoning work the other way? That is to say, if tomorrow Rome decided that Catholic communion is only for Catholics, does it follow that our consecrations would not be blessed with the Spirit of unity through one body one Spirit" in Christ?

Catholic Communion is and has always been only for Catholics… There is only one Church… Hence, one body one Spirit.

 

[Peter_J]

I don’t believe it’s true to say that Catholic communion is only for Catholics. But even if it is true, it doesn’t answer my question.

 

[TEPO]

I don’t believe it’s true to say that Catholic communion is only for Catholics. But even if it is true, it doesn’t answer my question.

It just depends on what it means to be considered “Catholic”.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

CIC 843 §3. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick licitly to members of Eastern Churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church if they seek such on their own accord and are properly disposed. This is also valid for members of other Churches which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition in regard to the sacraments as these Eastern Churches.

CCEO 671 §3. Likewise Catholic ministers licitly administer the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick to Christian faithful of Eastern Churches, who do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask for them on their own and are properly disposed. This holds also for the Christian faithful of other Churches, who according to the judgment of the Apostolic See, are in the same condition as the Eastern Churches as far as the sacraments are concerned.

 

[TEPO]

CIC 843 §3. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick licitly to members of Eastern Churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church if they seek such on their own accord and are properly disposed. This is also valid for members of other Churches which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition in regard to the sacraments as these Eastern Churches.

CCEO 671 §3. Likewise Catholic ministers licitly administer the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick to Christian faithful of Eastern Churches, who do not have full communion with the Catholic Church, if they ask for them on their own and are properly disposed. This holds also for the Christian faithful of other Churches, who according to the judgment of the Apostolic See, are in the same condition as the Eastern Churches as far as the sacraments are concerned.

Who is or is not considered “Catholic” anyways? I think anyone who has been Baptized in the Spirit is part of the Catholic Church -no?

Being in full communion is something else.

(edit): anyone who ASKs for these sacraments would automatically become in communion w/ the Catholic Church.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Who is or is not considered “Catholic” anyways?

I suppose whatever context you might have in mind at the moment, ranging from only members of the Latin Church to just about anyone who claims to be “Catholic” in some sense, whether or not such a claim would be accepted by any of the Apostolic Churches.

In the context of canon law, it has only one meaning.

 

[TEPO]

I suppose whatever context you might have in mind at the moment, ranging from only members of the Latin Church to just about anyone who claims to be “Catholic” in some sense, whether or not such a claim would be accepted by any of the Apostolic Churches.

In the context of canon law, it has only one meaning.

According to the CCC, it has more to do with faith and the sacraments… That’s being in full communion that is.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

According to the CCC, it has more to do with faith and the sacraments.

What specifically are you referring to in the CCC?

 

[Peter_J]

It just depends on what it means to be considered “Catholic”.

Well, yes. The Orthodox consider themselves to be the Catholic Church. If you mean it in that sense, then I guess it is true to say that “Catholic communion is only for Catholics”. But I mean Catholic as *“in communion with Rome”, i.e. us (Latin Catholics and Eastern Catholics).

*Then again, according to the Anglicans, Catholics and Orthodox are both "Catholic"and so are Anglicans.

 

[TEPO]

What specifically are you referring to in the CCC?

Haven’t you read it yourself? You do support our Church don’t you?