Orthodox Church

[PaulfromIowa]

The Orthodox Church say they are the oldest church. Is this true?

The Catholics and Orthodox were all part of the undivided Church for the first thousand years of the Church. We can argue about whose fault the schism was, but we cannot argue about the need to end the schism. All Christians should dedicate themselves to unity and reject those who preach schism.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Must we do this again? When do you first see “Roman Catholic Church” in writing?

Must we explain this to you again?

After another schismatic bunch began to use it in the middle ages.

But the original Church founded by Jesus upon Peter, the rock, has referred to itself as the “Catholic Church” since the end of the first century.

Ignatius of Antioch, AD 107.

 

[Seraphim73]

Must we explain this to you again?

After another schismatic bunch began to use it in the middle ages.

But the original Church founded by Jesus upon Peter, the rock, has referred to itself as the “Catholic Church” since the end of the first century.

Ignatius of Antioch, AD 107.

Randy I know good and well when and why the term is used. Stop making the facile argument about the term “Orthodox Church” and I’ll stop making this point.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Randy I know good and well when and why the term is used. Stop making the facile argument about the term “Orthodox Church” and I’ll stop making this point.

First, you were responding to steve_b, not me.

Second, I would hate for you to stop bringing this up. Every time you do, it highlights the facts that:

1. 
   *]We Catholics actually do know when our Church became known as the “Catholic Church”, because it is used repeatedly in the writings of the Early Church Fathers, and
   
   *]You don’t know when “Orthodox Church” became the proper noun used to describe the loose association of autocephalous churches which are centered in the geographic and ethnic regions of Russia, the Ukraine, Serbia, Greece, etc.
   
   I’m merely surprised that you personally asked and that you keep drawing everyone’s attention to this information, but by all means, please do.

 

[steve_b]

The Catholics and Orthodox were **all **part of the undivided Church for the first thousand years of the Church. We can argue about whose fault the schism was, but we cannot argue about the need to end the schism. All Christians should dedicate themselves to unity and reject those who preach schism.

I would just make 2 comments to the 2 points you raise

1. 
   *]The Church under Peter and his successors down through the ages, **is (not was) one. Only one Church on earth fits that discription then, now, and forever. The Catholic Church, with pope Francis 267th successor to St Peter leading her today. All the divisions we see in Christendom no matter who it is, how many, what name they use, don’t change the status of the Catholic Church and who she is. Those who divide aren’t THE CHURCH. When someone leaves the Catholic Church, and/or won’t return, they sin gravely against charity towards God and His Church. 837 , #155
   *]As long as Satan is allowed to do what he does, he will divide (sift) and maintain that division with all his might. And unfortunately, we can see for ourselves, he has done too good a job on that front…agreed?

 

[Seraphim73]

First, you were responding to steve_b, not me.

Second, I would hate for you to stop bringing this up. Every time you do, it highlights the facts that:

1. 
   *]We Catholics actually do know when our Church became known as the “Catholic Church”, because it is used repeatedly in the writings of the Early Church Fathers, and
   
   *]You don’t know when “Orthodox Church” became the proper noun used to describe the loose association of autocephalous churches which are centered in the geographic and ethnic regions of Russia, the Ukraine, Serbia, Greece, etc.
   
   I’m merely surprised that you personally asked and that you keep drawing everyone’s attention to this information, but by all means, please do.

1. 
   Yes but you decided to stick your nose in the discussion. I know exactly when our One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church was founded and when we were first called Catholic. And the term Orthodox has been applied to the Catholic Church from it’s infancy. The proper term Orthodox Catholic Church is used to clarify and differentiate us from the various heterodox Catholic Churches.

 

[RollTide1987]

Must we do this again? When do you first see “Roman Catholic Church” in writing?

The first use of the term “Roman Catholic Church” did not occur until sometime after the Protestant Reformation. Before that, at least since 107 AD, the term “Catholic Church” was used to describe the Church whose presidency resides in Rome.

 

[dronald]

It’s good to be specific.

and while we’re being specific, back to a comment you made on your previous response, Catholics hold to the [o]rthodox faith not the [O]rthodox faith.

Is distinguishing beliefs based on whether or not the word is capitalized in writing an orthodox practice?

catholic vs Catholic, orthodox vs Orthodox.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes but you decided to stick your nose in the discussion.

As did you. Even more quickly than I did.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Is distinguishing beliefs based on whether or not the word is capitalized in writing an orthodox practice?

catholic vs Catholic, orthodox vs Orthodox.

See the bottom half of post #5 for a Protestant scholar’s explanation of this.

 

[dronald]

See the bottom half of post #5 for a Protestant scholar’s explanation of this.

Thanks!

There are two groups vying for the title.

One is led by the direct successor of Peter upon whom Jesus promised to build one Church and to whom the keys of the perpetual office of the Royal Steward were given. (cf. Mt. 16:18-19) The other is not.

The former is known as the Catholic Church, the ancient name by which it has been known since the end of the first century. The other is not.

Here is that story:

Earliest Use of the Name “Catholic Church”

The early Church - the Church founded by Christ as promised in Matthew 16:18 - was that which was originally known as “the Way” (cf. Acts 24:14). Later, those individuals who followed Christ began to be called “Christians” beginning at Antioch (cf. Acts 11:26). As early as 107 A.D., those same individuals referred to themselves collectively as the “Catholic Church”. In a letter to the Church of Smyrna, Ignatius of Antioch wrote, “You must all follow the bishop as Jesus Christ follows the Father, and the presbytery (priest) as you would the Apostles. Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, A.D. 107, [8,1])

Notice that Ignatius does not introduce the term “Catholic Church”; instead he uses it in a manner suggesting that the name was already in use and familiar to his audience. This further suggests that the name, Catholic Church, had to have been coined much earlier in order to have achieved wide circulation by the time of this writing. In other words, the Christian assembly was calling itself the Catholic Church during the lifetime of the last Apostle, John, who died near the end of the first century. John, the beloved disciple, may have thought of himself as a member of the Catholic Church!

The Catholic Church began with Peter and the Apostles and continued without interruption or cessation through their disciples (Ignatius, Irenaeus, Polycarp, Clement, Justin Martyr, etc.) down to the present day. As a side note, it appears that the believers in Antioch may have coined both terms still in use today: “Christian” and “Catholic Church” – terms they used to describe the one body of believers in Christ.

Protestant Scholar on the use of the Proper Name "Catholic"

That’s so neat! So to answer my question about capitalizing the word “Catholic” you say that Ignatius would have used capital letters?

If you’re making a different point, that’s fine; but it doesn’t really address my question, unless you are trying to say that Ignatius would have used capital letters. Thanks again!

One Protestant author who is honest about this history is the renowned Church historian, J. N. D. Kelly. Kelly dates the usage of the name “Catholic” after the death of the Apostle John, but he acknowledges that the original Church founded by Jesus called itself the “Catholic Church”.

“As regards ‘Catholic,’ its original meaning was ‘universal’ or ‘general’ … As applied to the Church, its primary significance was to underline its universality as opposed to the local character of the individual congregations. Very quickly, however, in the latter half of the second century at latest, we find it conveying the suggestion that the Catholic is the true Church as distinct from heretical congregations. . . . What these early Fathers were envisaging was almost always the empirical, visible society; they had little or no inkling of the distinction which was later to become important between a visible and an invisible Church” (J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines, 5th ed. [San Francisco: Harper, 1978], 190f).

Darn. My Pastor recently recommended through email that I read “Early Christian Doctrines” by J.N.D Kelly. He’s an Evangelical Pastor and has read it himself and believes it’s the perfect book for me. It’s too bad that since you’ve quoted it to me I haven’t had a chance to read it yet like yourself.

Since you’ve read it and quote it, I would love a review. Let me know what you thought of the whole book and if I should purchase it? I was thinking of getting it sometime after Christmas.

 

[cottice]

Must we do this again? When do you first see “Roman Catholic Church” in writing?

Actually we find it in scripture. But first let’s deal with the “Roman” issue. The Catholic Church was called ‘Roman’ Catholic by Henry VIII or his henchmen to distinguish it from the Church of England. The idea was that ‘Roman’ meant foreign and thus no patriotic Englishman would dare be part of it. Bear in mind that the ‘Divine Right of Kings’ was still in vogue at the time. The word ‘Roman’ was never a part of the Catholic Church unless, of course, one was referring to the individual diocese of Rome, Italy.

As for the scripture verse it is found in Acts 9:31:

“So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied.”

The underlined words in Greek are ecclesia kata holis. These same words would be used by Ignatus of Antioch around 107 AD.

 

[dronald]

“So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Sama’ria had peace and was built up; and walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit it was multiplied.”

The underlined words in Greek are ecclesia kata holis. These same words would be used by Ignatus of Antioch around 107 AD.

Exactly

 

[Seraphim73]

The first use of the term “Roman Catholic Church” did not occur until sometime after the Protestant Reformation. Before that, at least since 107 AD, the term “Catholic Church” was used to describe the Church whose presidency resides in Rome.

Yes I know all this. Then according to steve b’s logic the Roman Catholic Church was founded sometime after the Reformation and is not the same as the Catholic Church St Ignatius referred to.

 

[Seraphim73]

As did you. Even more quickly than I did.

Right, so when you interject yourself when I was addressing steve b don’t be surprised when I address the point steve b was making.

 

[tdgesq]

Yes I know all this. Then according to steve b’s logic the Roman Catholic Church was founded sometime after the Reformation and is not the same as the Catholic Church St Ignatius referred to.

I agree. It’s silly to argue about what group of believers ended up with what label, rather than discuss the underlying doctrinal differences.

 

[Randy_Carson]

So to answer my question about capitalizing the word “Catholic” you say that Ignatius would have used capital letters?

No, I’m not certain that Ignatius would have used capital letters, but I think if he didn’t, others did within just a few years…which is the point Kelly is making.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes I know all this. Then according to steve b’s logic the Roman Catholic Church was founded sometime after the Reformation and is not the same as the Catholic Church St Ignatius referred to.

Of course not, and the absurdity of your argument has been explained to you before.

Henry VIII “nicknamed” the Catholic Church the “Roman Catholic Church” in order to emphasize that it was foreign and not English.

What we repeatedly ask, is when did YOUR association of churches begin to refer to themselves as the “Orthodox Church” in order to emphasize that they were no longer in communion with the head of the Church established by Jesus?

 

[dronald]

No, I’m not certain that Ignatius would have used capital letters, but I think if he didn’t, others did within just a few years…which is the point Kelly is making.

Absolutely he would not have, whether writing Greek or Latin during his time. Unless you make the argument that he would have used capitals because all they had was capitals; in that case you would be correct.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Absolutely he would not have, whether writing Greek or Latin during his time. Unless you make the argument that he would have used capitals because all they had was capitals; in that case you would be correct.

So your position is that Ignatius was not possibly using the phrase “catholic church” as a proper noun?

How do you know this?