K
katherine2
Guest
It also means most of the church’s temporal support comes from non-Catholics!!
- Status
P
papadon
Guest
This is not correct. Married priests do take a vow of celibacy, as do Deacons. The vow of celibacy states, in regard to married religious, that he may continue with his marriage. But upon divorce, separation, or death of his spouse, that he may not marry again.
I know, because I asked that very question in my discernment to become a Deacon.
4
4_marks
Guest
Tom of Assisi:
me: don’t use contraceptives, attend Mass weekly, assent to the Church’s doctrinal teachings, don’t always assent to the strict interpretation of the moral teachings of the Church, pray and go to confession regularly, will abstain from voting if there are no acceptable candidates to vote for.
O
otm
Guest
No they don’t. That is another example of Urban Legend.
C
chrisb
Guest
In nomine Jesu I offer you all peace,
Christ came to give us life and it more abundantly.
I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. - John 10:10b
Our Lord Jesus Christ suggests that we will know them by their fruits.
By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them. - Matthew 7:16-20
What are the fruits of such an abundant life? Let us look at what St. Paul offers us…
But the fruit of the Spirit is, charity, joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, longanimity, Mildness, faith, modesty, continency, chastity. Against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified their flesh, with the vices and concupiscences. - Galatians 5:22-24
Here is another translation:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. - Galatians 5:22-24
Our good St. John suggests that those who love are borne of God…
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.- 1 John 4:7-8
St. Paul suggest in multiple Epistles:
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. - Romans 13:8
Jesus freed us from the yoke of sin. It that liberity we are in effect free from the Works of the Law in the love of Christ to Works of Mercy, where there is no law that can contain. Some of you appear to suggest that we are yoked with bondage which through Christ we were freed.
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. - Galatians 5:1
I leave you with one more thing to ponder…
For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. - Romans 10:3-11
Although I am in RCIA, I think that we can really step cautiously with this idea that one needs to meant someone else’s opinion of orthodoxy or liberalism. We are each given gifts to work God’s Will in our life and the lives of others. Some are generous some are not. Just because you are generous in your love, don’t mean you are not orthodox, it just means your are hopeful.
Peace.
Christ came to give us life and it more abundantly.
I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. - John 10:10b
Our Lord Jesus Christ suggests that we will know them by their fruits.
By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them. - Matthew 7:16-20
What are the fruits of such an abundant life? Let us look at what St. Paul offers us…
But the fruit of the Spirit is, charity, joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, longanimity, Mildness, faith, modesty, continency, chastity. Against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified their flesh, with the vices and concupiscences. - Galatians 5:22-24
Here is another translation:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. - Galatians 5:22-24
Our good St. John suggests that those who love are borne of God…
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.- 1 John 4:7-8
St. Paul suggest in multiple Epistles:
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. - Romans 13:8
Jesus freed us from the yoke of sin. It that liberity we are in effect free from the Works of the Law in the love of Christ to Works of Mercy, where there is no law that can contain. Some of you appear to suggest that we are yoked with bondage which through Christ we were freed.
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. - Galatians 5:1
I leave you with one more thing to ponder…
For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. - Romans 10:3-11Although I am in RCIA, I think that we can really step cautiously with this idea that one needs to meant someone else’s opinion of orthodoxy or liberalism. We are each given gifts to work God’s Will in our life and the lives of others. Some are generous some are not. Just because you are generous in your love, don’t mean you are not orthodox, it just means your are hopeful.
Peace.
I
Ignatius
Guest
Actually, I woudl say that if you are generous and loving, that is in obedience to Christs’ command and it is a pretty good sign that you are orthodox.
May the peace of Christ be with you.
G
Genesis315
Guest
I just wanted to clarify. I think dogma’s and doctrines you have to believe and agree with as they are of God and infallible. Disciplinary things you can disagree with, but you have to obey. For example, you have to believe that the Novus Ordo Mass is valid, but you don’t have to agree that it’s the best liturgical model. For example, I like the Tridentine Mass, but if the Church said the Novus Ordo was the only rite to be used, I would have obey (even if I disagreed).
That being said, you have to believe in the divinity of Jesus, the Immaculate Conception, that Purgatory exists, the Real Presence in the Eucharist, murder is a grave sin, etc.
Does that make sense?
J
John_Higgins
Guest
Do you HAVE to believe it? Don’t think so.
John
G
Genesis315
Guest
I would imagine you did. If not you are believing falsehood. I mean, a dogma is God exists. I would say you have to believe that. I’d say you have to believe Jesus was the divine Son of God and also God Himself. I would say you have to believe Heaven and Hell exist or else you are calling Jesus a liar. Disagreeing on dogmas and doctrines, even on Purgatory, means you do not trust the judgment and teaching of the authority that was divinely instituted by Chirst himself and that is guided in these matters by the Holy Spirit. To disagree on dogma and doctrine is to believe the Holy Spirit is wrong and therefore God is imperfect. And you cannot be Catholic and not believe the most fundamental Truth that God is perfect.
I
Ignatius
Guest
John Higgins:
Yes, it’s defined doctrine of the Church.
I
Ignatius
Guest
John Higgins:
Yes, it’s defined doctrine of the Church. You can, however, have questions about it.
F
Fashina86
Guest
Yes, my family is very orthodox. Most of us attend daily Mass, and even a Latin Mass every so often. Our uncle became a priest pre Vatican two, so there are many practices that we have that still are from that time period. My mother still wears her mantilla as well.
God Bless–JMJ
Laura
God Bless–JMJ
Laura
T
turboEDvo
Guest
Per your definition, I would definitely say that I fall on the orthodox side (and though I don’t want to be a self-proclaimed “orthodox” Catholic, I am rather orthodox). I used to be very liberal, but I have changed A LOT! Now I am orthodox in my ways.
Eamon
Eamon
I
Ignatius
Guest
Definitely orthodox here.
P
Phantom1539
Guest
Alright. I agree that there is too much knee-jerk reaction and closedmindedness in this thread. Tell me if I’m mistaken, but doesn’t the catechism itself state that a person’s conscience must be followed above all else? We cannot always be sure that the teachings of the church are right in every detail. Christ is infallible, but the church is human. We must make an effort to understand the church’s teaching, but we must also move outside of the box and examine the evidence.
For myself, I am all over the board. I am opposed to contraception. However, there is NO EVIDENCE that Jesus ever mentioned it, so my position is based on the church’s age old teaching along with LOGICAL EVIDENCE, such as the fact that NFP couples have lower divorce rates and happier marriages. I am orthodox on that issue only because it makes sense, and the Holy Spirit seems to be taking me that way.
However, I am questioning the church’s teaching on other issues. For instance, the church has Just War theory. Well, according to the writings of the Church fathers, for the first few hundred years ALL CHRISTIANS WERE PACIFIST. They were opposed to war! Well, one of these postions is very right and one is very wrong. If Just war theory is correct, does that make the early Christians heterodox heretics? And vice versa? I think not. There is room for legitimate disagreement. And if one can dissent on this issue, can’t one, in good conscience, dissent on others?
I am questioning the issues of priestly celibacy, female priests, and homosexuality, among others. But I am questioning them BECAUSE of my relationship with Jesus, not in spite of it.
However, I am strongly opposed to legalized abortion, contraception, and many other crazy things. It’s important to note that I am only 21 and still have plenty of time to become an orthodox conservative. But if I do, it will be because I’ve searched my soul and researched it deeply. Not just because the catechism says so.
For myself, I am all over the board. I am opposed to contraception. However, there is NO EVIDENCE that Jesus ever mentioned it, so my position is based on the church’s age old teaching along with LOGICAL EVIDENCE, such as the fact that NFP couples have lower divorce rates and happier marriages. I am orthodox on that issue only because it makes sense, and the Holy Spirit seems to be taking me that way.
However, I am questioning the church’s teaching on other issues. For instance, the church has Just War theory. Well, according to the writings of the Church fathers, for the first few hundred years ALL CHRISTIANS WERE PACIFIST. They were opposed to war! Well, one of these postions is very right and one is very wrong. If Just war theory is correct, does that make the early Christians heterodox heretics? And vice versa? I think not. There is room for legitimate disagreement. And if one can dissent on this issue, can’t one, in good conscience, dissent on others?
I am questioning the issues of priestly celibacy, female priests, and homosexuality, among others. But I am questioning them BECAUSE of my relationship with Jesus, not in spite of it.
However, I am strongly opposed to legalized abortion, contraception, and many other crazy things. It’s important to note that I am only 21 and still have plenty of time to become an orthodox conservative. But if I do, it will be because I’ve searched my soul and researched it deeply. Not just because the catechism says so.
D
DadHoffman
Guest
Phantom,
I consent that knee-jerk reaction is never helpful nor appropriate when learning and exploring our Catholic faith. And I also admit that I am one of the first to give such a reaction. So, I will try to not jerk the knee in my response - to the extent that I cooperate with His grace
Phantom1539:
Phantom1539:
As far as moving “outside the box”, I believe the Church in her wisdom has given us solid boundaries on such issues, such as to give us more freedom for exploration. When you know that there is a firm boundary, then you have greater freedom of motion within that boundary. If you put a fence around the edge of a precepice, then you don’t have to worry so much about falling off of it.
Phantom1539:
I have to log out now, perhaps I’ll post more tomorrow on this.
I consent that knee-jerk reaction is never helpful nor appropriate when learning and exploring our Catholic faith. And I also admit that I am one of the first to give such a reaction. So, I will try to not jerk the knee in my response - to the extent that I cooperate with His grace
Not quite - that’s only half of it. Yes, a person is obligated to follow their conscience - and a person can never be forced to act against their conscience (coerced conversions, etc.). However, said person is also obligated to form their conscience in the light of authoritative Church teaching. ccc 1783
You might be getting lost in the details - in most doctrinal and moral issues, there is some room for exploration and conjecture at such a detailed level - but at the core of such issues, as the Church’s teachings on faith and morals are considered authoritative, Church teachings can, do, and should have a binding effect on men’s consciences.
As far as moving “outside the box”, I believe the Church in her wisdom has given us solid boundaries on such issues, such as to give us more freedom for exploration. When you know that there is a firm boundary, then you have greater freedom of motion within that boundary. If you put a fence around the edge of a precepice, then you don’t have to worry so much about falling off of it.
As a short note, Christ also never specifically mentioned the Trinity, but that teaching is central to all of Christianity. Just because Our Lord didn’t mention something in Scripture, doesn’t mean he didn’t teach about the moral principles behind those teachings. “All the books of the world could not contain it” (paraphrasing John).
I have to log out now, perhaps I’ll post more tomorrow on this.
D
DadHoffman
Guest
OK, back to finish my posting/reply on this topic, and then I’ll be quiet. Phantom1539, you continued…
There is a difference between striving for peace to the fullest extent possible (an integral part of Just War theory), and the position that war is NEVER justified (ultimate pacifism). Just War Theory states that ONLY when all reasonable avenues for peace have been exhausted could war become an option. This also stems from the Church’s teaching on self-defense.
Can anyone reasonably say that World War II wasn’t justified? When the world was being slowly overrun by Hitler and his philosophies of hatred? I can’t.
Now, it is arguable whether or not the current war in Iraq was justifiable or not. And it has been stated by many in the Magisterium that Catholics, in good conscience, can come down on either side of that issue. And so, regarding the war in Iraq, we can disagree respectfully.
And so I trust the Church’s judgement on matters of faith and morals - even at times when I personally struggle with those matters. I am not the Church, but part of it. The Pope is not the Church, but part of it. The Saints are not the Church, but part of it. And so I take ALL of the Church into account, not just my own feelings about things. When the evidence of Church teaching far outweighs (by people, time and experience) my own experiencial knowlege - I’ll go with the Church.
And yes, we all struggle with the Faith from time to time. Saint Paul said to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”. But the Church is there as our guide on that path, to walk with us as Christ’s representatives in our lives.
As far as the doctrinal problems with female priests, I’m sure there are plenty of other threads for that discussion - only to say that Christ chose only men for His apostles, and as the priest acts in persona Christi during the consecration, a male priesthood is required for valid consecration to occur.
Married priests is a discipline issue, and the Pope could change that if he desires - but there are many drawback to a married priesthood, and advantages to a celibate priesthood. I’m a husband and father of two and let me tell you, I wouldn’t have TIME for the rigorous demands of the priesthood
The Church’s position on homosexuality is a complex one, and the best place I can point you is to the Catechism (hope that’s not too knee-jerk). But the treatise there on homosexuality (and sexuality in general) is very precise and written in great love.
Together in Christ
+jmj+
I will have to respectfully disagree that all Christian’s were pacifists, according to Early Church Fathers. I would have to see some citations of Fathers speaking out against ALL forms of war. There can and should be times when warfare is justified.
There is a difference between striving for peace to the fullest extent possible (an integral part of Just War theory), and the position that war is NEVER justified (ultimate pacifism). Just War Theory states that ONLY when all reasonable avenues for peace have been exhausted could war become an option. This also stems from the Church’s teaching on self-defense.
Can anyone reasonably say that World War II wasn’t justified? When the world was being slowly overrun by Hitler and his philosophies of hatred? I can’t.
Now, it is arguable whether or not the current war in Iraq was justifiable or not. And it has been stated by many in the Magisterium that Catholics, in good conscience, can come down on either side of that issue. And so, regarding the war in Iraq, we can disagree respectfully.
Just remember, that Christ was the One who set the Church upon the hillside, the One who gave the keys to Saint Peter and his successors, the One who said that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it.
And so I trust the Church’s judgement on matters of faith and morals - even at times when I personally struggle with those matters. I am not the Church, but part of it. The Pope is not the Church, but part of it. The Saints are not the Church, but part of it. And so I take ALL of the Church into account, not just my own feelings about things. When the evidence of Church teaching far outweighs (by people, time and experience) my own experiencial knowlege - I’ll go with the Church.
And yes, we all struggle with the Faith from time to time. Saint Paul said to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling”. But the Church is there as our guide on that path, to walk with us as Christ’s representatives in our lives.
As far as the doctrinal problems with female priests, I’m sure there are plenty of other threads for that discussion - only to say that Christ chose only men for His apostles, and as the priest acts in persona Christi during the consecration, a male priesthood is required for valid consecration to occur.
Married priests is a discipline issue, and the Pope could change that if he desires - but there are many drawback to a married priesthood, and advantages to a celibate priesthood. I’m a husband and father of two and let me tell you, I wouldn’t have TIME for the rigorous demands of the priesthood
The Church’s position on homosexuality is a complex one, and the best place I can point you is to the Catechism (hope that’s not too knee-jerk). But the treatise there on homosexuality (and sexuality in general) is very precise and written in great love.
Well, good. Searching the soul is a lifelong process and necessary for anyone to advance in the spiritual life. Just don’t lose your map - it is possible to get lost out there. Trust me, it was a long hard journey to make it home when I got lost a while back.
Together in Christ
+jmj+
W
Weapon
Guest
Hello All
I definitely consider myself orthodox, but yet at the same time I espouse the the courageous school of “liberal” Catholic thought that triumphed at Vatican II. Words such as “liberal” and “conservative” are terms from the political arena, and must be used with great caution when assessing a person’s relilgious or moral agency. There are 3 schools of “Catholic” thought today, only one of which is acceptable. One school, frozen in October of 1958, schismatic for the most part, has turned its back on tomorrow. The other extreme which arrogates to itself the title “liberal progressive”, has turned its back on yesterday. This is the dissenting school of thought that has wrought so much destruction since Vatican II. Now the middle ground between these two extremes is of course that dynamic pluraform traditionalism and organic growth directive exemplified by Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. Orthodoxis? Yes!Orthopraxis? Yes!
Bye for now
Weapon
I definitely consider myself orthodox, but yet at the same time I espouse the the courageous school of “liberal” Catholic thought that triumphed at Vatican II. Words such as “liberal” and “conservative” are terms from the political arena, and must be used with great caution when assessing a person’s relilgious or moral agency. There are 3 schools of “Catholic” thought today, only one of which is acceptable. One school, frozen in October of 1958, schismatic for the most part, has turned its back on tomorrow. The other extreme which arrogates to itself the title “liberal progressive”, has turned its back on yesterday. This is the dissenting school of thought that has wrought so much destruction since Vatican II. Now the middle ground between these two extremes is of course that dynamic pluraform traditionalism and organic growth directive exemplified by Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. Orthodoxis? Yes!Orthopraxis? Yes!
Bye for now
Weapon
F
feather
Guest
Trick question.
I checked liberal because I trust implicitly only one and that is God. I lay my life down for God, God only.
I was born Catholic and did what I was told to do without question until I was in my thirties. It was then I realized that I had a brain, a mind, and could actually have thoughts of my own in this world. I give my life to God, no one else.
I checked liberal because I trust implicitly only one and that is God. I lay my life down for God, God only.
I was born Catholic and did what I was told to do without question until I was in my thirties. It was then I realized that I had a brain, a mind, and could actually have thoughts of my own in this world. I give my life to God, no one else.
M
MarySon
Guest
Definitely orthodox.
- Status