Orthodox or liberal?

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mtr01:
After reading this threat it seems pretty clear IMO that there are two dimensions being discussed: othodoxy/heterodoxy and liberalism/conservativism. Now the way I see it, the first dimension applies to Church Dogma. Every Catholic is required to believe in the truth of Church doctrine as defined in Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magesterium. Since truth is unchanging liberalism or conservativism simply does not apply.

Where they can apply, IMO, is in regard to Church disciplines and customs. These are by nature changeable as the times require. One can be for or against a married priesthood, or alter girls, or what have you, and still remain orthodox in Church doctrine.

That being said, regardless of what one thinks, there are still rules that apply and cannot be broken. A priest is free to think that the celibacy requirement should be abolished, but he is not free to act on those beliefs. To use a secular analogy, in this country, one is certainly free to think that marijuana use should be legal. However, it is against the “rules” of the country, and if that person is caught using marijuana, he is going to be punished according to the “rules” of the country.

Perhaps in the future the rules may change, but until that time, neither the pot-smoker or the priest in favor of marriage is not free to act on his beliefs.
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Very good points. I do think, however, that the terms liberal and conservative are accurate shorthand ways of referring to those who dissent and those who do not dissent. It may not be theologically accurate, but those who claim the mass as their private property and allow all manner of illicit things are liberal. Those who claim their conscience allows them to reject Church teachings are liberal.
 
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fix:
Very good points. I do think, however, that the terms liberal and conservative are accurate shorthand ways of referring to those who dissent and those who do not dissent. It may not be theologically accurate, but those who claim the mass as their private property and allow all manner of illicit things are liberal. Those who claim their conscience allows them to reject Church teachings are liberal.
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I agree this happens…that we tend to use terms in their broadest meaning as a sort of shorthand. The problem is that the broader definition one uses, the more open it is to interpretation or misunderstanding. When that happens, useful discussion is almost impossible, since different people mean different things using the same terms, and we end up in a mess like we have above. Never assume that someone else understands a term in the same way you do. The only way we can be sure that we’re talking about the same things and have any kind of fruitful debate is by defining the terms we use in the most specific and precise way we can. That way, when you say liberalism and I say liberalism, we can be sure we’re talking about the same thing.
 
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mtr01:
I agree this happens…that we tend to use terms in their broadest meaning as a sort of shorthand. The problem is that the broader definition one uses, the more open it is to interpretation or misunderstanding. When that happens, useful discussion is almost impossible, since different people mean different things using the same terms, and we end up in a mess like we have above. Never assume that someone else understands a term in the same way you do. The only way we can be sure that we’re talking about the same things and have any kind of fruitful debate is by defining the terms we use in the most specific and precise way we can. That way, when you say liberalism and I say liberalism, we can be sure we’re talking about the same thing.
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Very true. Who would disagree with that?
 
I suppose that I will not be adding anything new to this topic, but I must provide my assent to the notion of specifically defining terms. Seeing the mass disagreement on the concepts of liberality and conservatism, we cannot use these notions when speaking of theological, ecclesiastical matters. The Reason? these matters are, indeed, precise in their approach. This is an inherent fact.

I would say that to better discuss the opinions and matters before us, we should clearly remain with “orthodox” and its counterpart “heterodox”. These terms have a specific meaning and intent within themselves. Though many would say, I would have to agree, that to be Catholic – truly Catholic – is to be orthodox, in belief and practice, the latter being the notion of orthopraxy. You cannot be CATHOLIC and not orthodox in the same way that one cannot be Jewish and believe that Christ is the Son of God Who has already come; one cannot be a Muslim and accept Trinitarian theology.
Orthodoxy entails accepting ALL – I stress ALL– teachings of Holy Mother Church that are to be held definitively and without hesitation by all of the faithful. Some would attempt to assert that these stifles healthy discussion on matters related to Church teaching. First, TRUTH is TRUTH. We do not debate or discuss whether or not the speed of light is 9.89 m/s(squared). It is TRUTH, a FACT.

I believe in the adage: “Obedience to the Church is obedience to God, Himself”. This is what it means to be a faithful Catholic
 
Tom of Assisi:
orthodox: assent to the Church’s moral and doctrinal teachings, don’t use contraceptives, attend Mass weekly, don’t support women, gay, or married priests, agree with Catholic Answers voter’s guide, pray and go to confession regularly…

liberal: think the Church should have married or women priests, don’t always assent to the moral teachings of Church: maybe birth control/sterilization are really o.k., will vote for candidates that are pro-abortion, pro-euthenasia, pro-stem-cell research, or pro homosexual rights.
thanks
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It looks like 97%+ orthodox. So where do all of the liberal parishes and priests come from? I am having a heck of a time finding a good orthodox parish with right teaching from the pulpit and without blatant liturgical abuses.
 
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Dolly:
I agree with those who disagree on how the poll in worded and the assumptions from that. But I also think that a poll like this, in itself, can be divisive which I don’t believe we should be trying to do.
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I do not agree about it being divisive, I think it shows how united the orthodox Catholics are. Look at the poll results. 97% unity is not divisive by any stretch of the imagination.
 
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newby:
If you are Catholic, really!!! you must be ortodox. Otherwise you are fooling yourself and are not really Catholic

Bless you

Newby
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Why should that stop one being “liberal”, in some sense ? 🙂​

 
It seems to me that on this thread, and others in this forum, everyone gets so uptight and technical in regards to “words.” I hope we are all judged so severely when we make the Lord.

I knew exactly what the poll referred to (and I’m sure the vast majority of you did too), why do we have to play all these mind games? 😦
 
“I hope we are all judged so severely when we make the Lord.”

OOPS, I meant NOT judged so severely…
 
Cannot be liberal. :nope:

I follow the True Devotion to Mary. :bounce:
Plus I have a “thing” about obedience to the Magisterium. :tiphat:
 
I suspect that these forums serve as a ghetto for ‘orthodox’ Catholics. We’re vastly outnumbered, but incredibly steadfast, active, and as these forums show, vocal.

I’ve read Ratzinger’s doctrinal note on the participation of Catholics in political life. It says very clearly that a Catholic cannot vote for any policy meant to sustain or further the practice of abortion. There, we’re all agreed.

However, when a Catholic votes for Kerry, whether this Catholic is guilty of willfully promoting abortion is a far more complex question. I know orthodox Catholics who are vigorously pro-life, but who also believe that the president is largely impotent to change the situation; for them, the real war is cultural, and the political battle is a red-herring. One of them believes that a Kerry administration would be far more conducive to earning the Church victories in promoting a Culture of Life–while Bush’s “culture of ownership,” associated with individualism, rampant consumerism, fear, mistrust, and economic hardship, is bound to keep abortion alive.

Before people ram scimitars through my belly, I must say that I disagree with the above analysis and I’ll probably vote for Bush (holding my nose) or else write in ‘Karol Wojtyla’ or something.

But voting for Kerry, I argue, cannot be considered objectively mortal sin; obviously a Catholic who votes for Kerry to promote abortion does so unequivocally. However, it is possible that rational, orthodox Catholics may see a Kerry vote as prudential move against abortion.
 
I could be wrong, but I seem to be under the impression that “orthodox” refers to religion and not to politics. 😃

Godefridus, you must enjoy yourself in this orthodox ghetto… no?👋
 
Agreed, orthodox and liberal are ends of 2 different spectrums of thought. It should be Orthodox/Heterodox and Liberal/Conservative. One could be an orthodox Catholic and political liberal, or a Heterodox, albeit conservative politician. Here is an example. Michael Peroutka, I only mention him because he is seems to be fashioned as a household name on these forums, is heterodoxical in his theology (if he was orthodox, he would be Catholic, which he is not), but conservative in his theology. The Pope is Ultra-Orthodox (duh!!!..he’s the Pope) but fairly liberal in his social worldview, in that he is a strong support of environmental conservationism, material stewardship, social entitlements for healthcare, anti-capital punishment, and support of the underprivaledged.
 
i love the Holy Father but I would not move so far as to say that he is “ultra-orthodox”. Somewhat of a stretch… But he is without a doubt orthodox.
 
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tru_dvotion:
Godefridus, you must enjoy yourself in this orthodox ghetto… no?👋
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Oh, very much so! Although, being a seminarian, I can wrap myself around with buddies who are loyal and devoted to Christ in-and-through the Church. Nevertheless, I entertain no illusions: orthodox Catholics are, by far, a minority–a strong, vocal, and right-thinking minority, but a minority nevertheless.

I’m deeply concerned about secularism outside of the Church and modernism within it, so if I spent all of my time here, I would feel a little like I was preaching to the choir, and terribly unchallenged. Still, it’s a nice ‘home-base’ to go for support and prayers.
 
orthodox Catholics are, by far, a minority–a strong, vocal, and right-thinking minority, but a minority nevertheless

hi Godefridus,

the choir is what brought me here :angel1:

sometimes it gets lonely out there.

the orthodox will always be out numbered, because orthodoxy requires certain violence against our egos.

but it’s all right.

the orthodox will not be a minority in heaven. :dancing:
 
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Godefridus:
Oh, very much so! Although, being a seminarian, I can wrap myself around with buddies who are loyal and devoted to Christ in-and-through the Church. Nevertheless, I entertain no illusions: orthodox Catholics are, by far, a minority–.
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Being a seminarian, you are surrounded by people who are coerced into liberal views. Don’t think the general society is so, it is quite the contrary. I can attest that orthodox Catholics are by far the majority.

However, don’t take my word for it. Formulate a questionnaire that will honestly indicate whether one is orthodox or liberal. Circulate it among the laity of a couple of Dioceses and statistically tabulate the results. I am willing to be that you will be greatly surprised.
 
I can attest that orthodox Catholics are by far the majority.
**Not where I live it isn’t. ******
**Remember political correctness? You do not find it exclusively in secular society. **
You must be aware there is modernist correctness operating inside the Catholic Church at the present. Think of the numerous lay organizations operating virtually unsupervised inside the parish. Most of these groups are caught up in false ecumenisms. They have been corrupted by either protestant or heretical teaching. Woe to anyone who dares to disagree or points out something contrary to Catholic teaching. He will be accused of being unloving and bringing disunity to the Body of Christ… he is branded a wolf in sheep’s clothing. No, I do not believe that orthodox Catholics are atypical.****
 
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Southernrich:
Why don’t you just say, “Orthodox means loving God, liberal means urinating on the Host”? Your prejudice is showing.
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My Lord and my God!
I can’t believe you actually would put urinating in a sentence like that.
I did not interpet this poll to be anything of the sort.
The question was are orthodox or liberal? If you are orthodox you should not have a problem following the rules of the church.
If you are a liberal you are going to follow the rules that you see fit your life.
So what was the point of your sick, twisted version of the interpatation?
 
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