A
Andreas_Hofer
Guest
- Status
A
Andreas_Hofer
Guest
loyola rambler:
If being conservative means tending to resist change then you are actually much more liberal than the Vatican because the legitimacy of the death penalty is the long-standing tradition of the Church. It’s always been acceptable because popes, doctors, and sundry other saints have defended it at such. So being totally opposed to its being used in even a single instance is pretty darn liberal.
Next, a celibate vs. married clergy doesn’t have anything to do with orthodoxy. You can pick whichever you want (as long as you abide by the decision of the Church while trying to get your choice instated) because that is a discipline and most certainly subject to change.
Whenever orthodoxy gets brought up, the extremes of both sides get knee-jerk defense mechanisms kicking in. Before you know it, whether communion is received standing or kneeling has been placed on the same level as transubstantiation and everyone has ruffled feathers because the Lefebvres want everyone toeing their quite specific line while the Kerrys are mad because they don’t think they should be excommunicated just for thinking it’s all right for someone to address a bishop without using the title “Your Excellency.”
Lot’s of problems with the above. First of all, if you’re not orthodox (right believing), you can’t really be considered a good and faithful Catholic. It’s just a matter of terms. I can’t be a good and faithful Muslim and believe there are actually more gods than Allah, and Muhammad was not his prophet. To think myself such in that case would be pure self-delusion.
If being conservative means tending to resist change then you are actually much more liberal than the Vatican because the legitimacy of the death penalty is the long-standing tradition of the Church. It’s always been acceptable because popes, doctors, and sundry other saints have defended it at such. So being totally opposed to its being used in even a single instance is pretty darn liberal.
Next, a celibate vs. married clergy doesn’t have anything to do with orthodoxy. You can pick whichever you want (as long as you abide by the decision of the Church while trying to get your choice instated) because that is a discipline and most certainly subject to change.
Whenever orthodoxy gets brought up, the extremes of both sides get knee-jerk defense mechanisms kicking in. Before you know it, whether communion is received standing or kneeling has been placed on the same level as transubstantiation and everyone has ruffled feathers because the Lefebvres want everyone toeing their quite specific line while the Kerrys are mad because they don’t think they should be excommunicated just for thinking it’s all right for someone to address a bishop without using the title “Your Excellency.”
M
misericordie
Guest
It is as an Auxiliary Bishop friend of mine says: One is either obedient to the official church teachings, all of them, and hence catholic, or one chooses to disobey even one official teaching of the Church, as if in a cafeteria, and hence NOT Catholic.
R
robertaf
Guest
Good Morning Church
Does that mean the 93% of Catholics who believe in using artificial birth control are not Catholics at all then?
We got trouble.
Does that mean the 93% of Catholics who believe in using artificial birth control are not Catholics at all then?
We got trouble.
D
David_E.Mahony
Guest
There is in the very notion of a broad church an understanding that is anathema to the rigid mindset which declares the truth to be this and not that and its expression in doctrine and ritual form, this way only and not that. This very idea of a broad church - a spectrum, does itself speak of a range of views on certain issues, a degree of diversity and deviation in interpretation and in levels of commitment away from what is considered by some to be a strict centrality or core. All are then measured according to the degree wherein they fall from or attain an acceptable level.
If I were to conduct a survey I wonder would not LoyolaRambler’s and Robertaf’s’ depiction of the human situation of a believer, one which obtains empirically be more readily verified than the strict and straightforward dichotomy, initially presented by those who may believe that such and such alone ought to be so and anything other than this ruled out? Such diversity, such ‘deviation’, such a variety in interpretations of doctrine and acceptability of ritual forms – these characterise what is known today as the Catholic Church. It is the very spice of debate. Whether this ought to be so is another matter. Fact is, it is. People argue over what the Magisterium writes, over its interpretation, and the understanding that it is said to oblige (See the EENS debate here). People argue over what ritual forms are acceptable (See NO here).
I think it was the German sociologist, Georg Simmel who commented on the manner in which the Roman Catholic Church would expand and contract in the way it obliged all to the rigour of its teachings – at one moment encompassing quite a broad church and then when it might appear that fissiparous developments gather apace, that the centre cannot so easily hold and things must needs fall apart, there is a timely reining in. (Hence, at one time the specific pounce upon the Modernists.) Is it raining now and do I ask, who comes in under that smaller, more robust umbrella and under what terms?
DEM
If I were to conduct a survey I wonder would not LoyolaRambler’s and Robertaf’s’ depiction of the human situation of a believer, one which obtains empirically be more readily verified than the strict and straightforward dichotomy, initially presented by those who may believe that such and such alone ought to be so and anything other than this ruled out? Such diversity, such ‘deviation’, such a variety in interpretations of doctrine and acceptability of ritual forms – these characterise what is known today as the Catholic Church. It is the very spice of debate. Whether this ought to be so is another matter. Fact is, it is. People argue over what the Magisterium writes, over its interpretation, and the understanding that it is said to oblige (See the EENS debate here). People argue over what ritual forms are acceptable (See NO here).
I think it was the German sociologist, Georg Simmel who commented on the manner in which the Roman Catholic Church would expand and contract in the way it obliged all to the rigour of its teachings – at one moment encompassing quite a broad church and then when it might appear that fissiparous developments gather apace, that the centre cannot so easily hold and things must needs fall apart, there is a timely reining in. (Hence, at one time the specific pounce upon the Modernists.) Is it raining now and do I ask, who comes in under that smaller, more robust umbrella and under what terms?
DEM
M
Mandi
Guest
It means they are living their life in the state of mortal sin, which means they are living their life away from God. Regardless of whether they call themselves Catholic and go to Church regularly.
One who suffers from contrition of the sin but still continues to commit it - for whatever reasons, will fair alot better (assuming God’s mercy) than the one who refuses to believe the truth that a sin is being committed.
May God have mercy on us all, especially those who refuse to acknowledge His laws!
F
fix
Guest
This debate is all over the place. Can we agree that either one is orthodox or heterodox? We should all agree on that. If not, check the CCC.
The term liberal is a political one, but not exclusively. It is become a shorthand term for a dissenter, or heterodox person who still claims to be in full communion with The CC.
Now, I appreciate precision in language and writing, but I can’t say that I hear about too many persons who claim to be liberal and still accept every teaching of Christ as He gives through His Church. That is the bottom line. Do we each accept every teaching, or do we make ourselves the authority above Christ?
Some are confusing liturgical customs and other regulations that may change from era to era with the deposit of the faith. Those customs and regulations may change, but we still must obey them when they are in effect, under pain of sin in most cases.
The term liberal is a political one, but not exclusively. It is become a shorthand term for a dissenter, or heterodox person who still claims to be in full communion with The CC.
Now, I appreciate precision in language and writing, but I can’t say that I hear about too many persons who claim to be liberal and still accept every teaching of Christ as He gives through His Church. That is the bottom line. Do we each accept every teaching, or do we make ourselves the authority above Christ?
Some are confusing liturgical customs and other regulations that may change from era to era with the deposit of the faith. Those customs and regulations may change, but we still must obey them when they are in effect, under pain of sin in most cases.
S
space_ghost
Guest
lib·er·al ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-l, lbrl)
adj.
Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas;** free from bigotry**.
Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas ** and behavior of others; broad-minded. ** Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.
con·ser·va·tive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kn-sûrv-tv)
adj.
Favoring traditional ** views and values; tending ** to oppose change.
Traditional or** restrained in style**: a conservative dark suit.
Moderate; cautious: a conservative estimate.
Of or relating to the political philosophy of conservatism.
Belonging to a conservative party, group, or movement.
Conservative Of or belonging to the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.
Conservative Of or adhering to Conservative Judaism.
Tending to conserve; preservative: the conservative use of natural resources.
here you are
adj.
Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas;** free from bigotry**.
Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas ** and behavior of others; broad-minded. ** Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.
con·ser·va·tive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kn-sûrv-tv)
adj.
Favoring traditional ** views and values; tending ** to oppose change.
Traditional or** restrained in style**: a conservative dark suit.
Moderate; cautious: a conservative estimate.
Of or relating to the political philosophy of conservatism.
Belonging to a conservative party, group, or movement.
Conservative Of or belonging to the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.
Conservative Of or adhering to Conservative Judaism.
Tending to conserve; preservative: the conservative use of natural resources.
here you are
N
newby
Guest
If you are Catholic, really!!! you must be ortodox. Otherwise you are fooling yourself and are not really Catholic
Bless you
Newby
Tom of Assisi:
Bless you
Newby
Tom of Assisi:
M
misericordie
Guest
Maybe, but this issue was clearly defined as contrary to Church teaching not only in Pope Paul VI’s Encyclical Humane Vitae, but in the NEW cathechism of the Catholic Church, and since using contraception is against life, and that is a mortal sin, then, maybe they ARE catholic, but who may be in Mortal Sin.
B
BLB_Oregon
Guest
Tom of Assisi:
Death penalty? Peace? Not the liberal stuff, just the stuff from the Papal encyclicals.
It looks a little as if we’re picking on one side of the dinner plate… are you sure you didn’t write “orthodox” when what you perhaps meant was “conservative”?
Ummm… why nothing specific on social justice here?
Death penalty? Peace? Not the liberal stuff, just the stuff from the Papal encyclicals.
It looks a little as if we’re picking on one side of the dinner plate… are you sure you didn’t write “orthodox” when what you perhaps meant was “conservative”?
L
loyola_rambler
Guest
Andreas Hofer:
First off, I can’t think of a single instance in the Western world where the death penalty would be justified. So since you think it’s possible, please explain the circumstance.
After living in Illinois for several years and seeing innocent men nearly executed because of legal abuses, I can more readily justify abolishing the entire institution so that no innocent people are subject to that fate. By your thinking, I’m a heretic. Hmmm…and here I thought I acting in accord with my well-developed conscience.
Celibate vs married clergy has everything to do with orthodoxy…just ask Bishop Untener (well, his friends, anyway). He got in huge trouble a few years ago for actually saying it would be permissable and that he would embrace a married clergy. OOPS…liberal heretic! Or there’s the example of Cardinal Bernadin petitioning for a former priest whose wife had died to have his orders restored. The man had young kids and they would have to be raised in the rectory. The “orthodox” factions were very vocal in calling Bernadin “too liberal”. Ironic that the pope actually agreed with him and restored the man’s orders. He’s now an active priest in the Archdiocese of Chicago…a very successful and well-respected priest at that. But the “orthodox” factions still think it’s a heresy.
In another realm, we refer to the “far right, ultra orthodox, my way or the highway” Catholics as Ubers. The implication is clear…there are people who are so far to the right that they evem disagree with a valid ecumenical council…namely Vatican II.
So let’s turn this around. Can you disagree with Vatican II and still be an orthodox Catholic?
Hmmm…lots to disagree with…
First off, I can’t think of a single instance in the Western world where the death penalty would be justified. So since you think it’s possible, please explain the circumstance.
After living in Illinois for several years and seeing innocent men nearly executed because of legal abuses, I can more readily justify abolishing the entire institution so that no innocent people are subject to that fate. By your thinking, I’m a heretic. Hmmm…and here I thought I acting in accord with my well-developed conscience.
Celibate vs married clergy has everything to do with orthodoxy…just ask Bishop Untener (well, his friends, anyway). He got in huge trouble a few years ago for actually saying it would be permissable and that he would embrace a married clergy. OOPS…liberal heretic! Or there’s the example of Cardinal Bernadin petitioning for a former priest whose wife had died to have his orders restored. The man had young kids and they would have to be raised in the rectory. The “orthodox” factions were very vocal in calling Bernadin “too liberal”. Ironic that the pope actually agreed with him and restored the man’s orders. He’s now an active priest in the Archdiocese of Chicago…a very successful and well-respected priest at that. But the “orthodox” factions still think it’s a heresy.
In another realm, we refer to the “far right, ultra orthodox, my way or the highway” Catholics as Ubers. The implication is clear…there are people who are so far to the right that they evem disagree with a valid ecumenical council…namely Vatican II.
So let’s turn this around. Can you disagree with Vatican II and still be an orthodox Catholic?
E
Ellsworth
Guest
The problem is that Vatican II is selectively used by unfaithful Catholics to justify their positions. There is a fantastic analysis on the “Eingedi” website on organizations like Call to Action that use the “spirit of Vatican II” argument to try to justify their dissent. It’s GREAT reading!!!
L
loyola_rambler
Guest
I can appreciate and even agree with that one part of it. But there are so many people, even on this site, who have real disdain for everything associated with Vatican II. The fact that it’s a very real, very valid council seems to be absolutely meaningless. In just the last week I’ve read people dismissing everything, including the very order of the mass and the use of the vernacular. There’s no sense of understanding of the social responsibility that the council required of us, nor is there any sense that we really are bound by its documents.
Frankly, I find it interesting that people are much more willing to accept the first Vatican council than the second, even though the vote of the first council was openly coerced. It’s more than a little amazing that something recent is mistrusted over things medieval to the Counter-Reformation.
M
Makerteacher
Guest
93% Yikes. where does that statistic come from? (lovely grammar, there, ending a sentence in a preposition. Lemme see if I can do better…) From whence doth that statistic originate, yea verily??
L
loyola_rambler
Guest
Makerteacher said:
Good point. I’m not even sure that 93% of the Catholics in this country are even sexually active, let alone of childbearing age.
L
loyola_rambler
Guest
Ah…found some stats from the so-called “Catholics for Contraception” (hey, don’t shoot the messenger!)
1980 - The National Survey of Family Growth shows that in the United States, 92 percent of all married Catholic women who practice contraception use a method that is opposed by the church and only 8 percent of married Catholics practice periodic abstinence.26
1986 – A New York Times/CBS poll shows that 68 percent of Catholics are in favor of using forms of contraception the church considers illicit.28 In 1987, another New York Times poll shows that nine out of ten Catholics think someone who practices a form of birth control banned by the church can still be a good Catholic.29
1988 – The National Survey of Family Growth reports 59 percent of all US Catholic women of childbearing age use contraception and only 3 percent of those women use a form accepted by the church.31
1991 – Ninety-six percent of Catholics in the Philippines say it is important for individuals to have the ability to control their own fertility and most of those asked support means of contraception that the church forbids.40
1993 – A survey of Catholics in Canada shows that 91 percent agree that using artificial birth control is acceptable.45 Statistics in Ireland show that 52 percent of Catholics reject the Vatican’s opposition to contraception. Seventy-one percent of Catholic 18 to 34 year olds in Ireland reject the ban on contraception.46 In the Czech Republic, 64 percent of married Catholic women use a form of contraception the church considers illicit.47
1994 – In a poll conducted by the New York Times, 88 percent of US Catholic laity say they believe that someone who practices some form of birth control can still be a good Catholic.48 A Los Angeles Times poll reveals that opposition to contraception among clergy and women religious is also much lower than the hierarchy would like. Only 49 percent of priests and 37 percent of women religious said it is always or often a sin for a married couple to use a form of artificial contraception.49 [this one troubles me the most!]
September 1995 - Statistics show that the Catholic laity are still in disagreement with Rome on the use and morality of contraception. In a poll conduct by Time and CNN, 76 percent of Catholics disagree that using artificial means of birth control is wrong. Seventy-nine percent say it is possible for Catholics to make up their own minds on these issues, and 80 percent believe it is possible to disagree with the pope on official positions on morality and still be a good Catholic.51 Only 15 percent of Catholics say a Catholic should always obey official church teachings on such moral issues as contraception and abortion. A US News & World Report survey reports similar findings—82 percent of Catholics disapprove or strongly disapprove of the statement that using artificial birth control, such as condoms or birth control pills, is morally wrong.52
1995 – Fifty-five percent of Catholics in Belgium do not agree “at all” with the church’s teaching on contraception.53 A Demographic and Health Survey, funded by the US Agency for International Development, found that 70 percent of Catholic women in Brazil have, at some point, used a modern method of contraception, including condoms, oral contraceptives and IUDs. Thirty-four percent currently use a modern method of contraception.54
1998 – In a survey conducted by US Catholic, 81 percent of Catholics believe a married couple has the right to follow their own conscience on the decision to use birth control. Forty percent say Humanae Vitae was a mistake.56
1980 - The National Survey of Family Growth shows that in the United States, 92 percent of all married Catholic women who practice contraception use a method that is opposed by the church and only 8 percent of married Catholics practice periodic abstinence.26
1986 – A New York Times/CBS poll shows that 68 percent of Catholics are in favor of using forms of contraception the church considers illicit.28 In 1987, another New York Times poll shows that nine out of ten Catholics think someone who practices a form of birth control banned by the church can still be a good Catholic.29
1988 – The National Survey of Family Growth reports 59 percent of all US Catholic women of childbearing age use contraception and only 3 percent of those women use a form accepted by the church.31
1991 – Ninety-six percent of Catholics in the Philippines say it is important for individuals to have the ability to control their own fertility and most of those asked support means of contraception that the church forbids.40
1993 – A survey of Catholics in Canada shows that 91 percent agree that using artificial birth control is acceptable.45 Statistics in Ireland show that 52 percent of Catholics reject the Vatican’s opposition to contraception. Seventy-one percent of Catholic 18 to 34 year olds in Ireland reject the ban on contraception.46 In the Czech Republic, 64 percent of married Catholic women use a form of contraception the church considers illicit.47
1994 – In a poll conducted by the New York Times, 88 percent of US Catholic laity say they believe that someone who practices some form of birth control can still be a good Catholic.48 A Los Angeles Times poll reveals that opposition to contraception among clergy and women religious is also much lower than the hierarchy would like. Only 49 percent of priests and 37 percent of women religious said it is always or often a sin for a married couple to use a form of artificial contraception.49 [this one troubles me the most!]
September 1995 - Statistics show that the Catholic laity are still in disagreement with Rome on the use and morality of contraception. In a poll conduct by Time and CNN, 76 percent of Catholics disagree that using artificial means of birth control is wrong. Seventy-nine percent say it is possible for Catholics to make up their own minds on these issues, and 80 percent believe it is possible to disagree with the pope on official positions on morality and still be a good Catholic.51 Only 15 percent of Catholics say a Catholic should always obey official church teachings on such moral issues as contraception and abortion. A US News & World Report survey reports similar findings—82 percent of Catholics disapprove or strongly disapprove of the statement that using artificial birth control, such as condoms or birth control pills, is morally wrong.52
1995 – Fifty-five percent of Catholics in Belgium do not agree “at all” with the church’s teaching on contraception.53 A Demographic and Health Survey, funded by the US Agency for International Development, found that 70 percent of Catholic women in Brazil have, at some point, used a modern method of contraception, including condoms, oral contraceptives and IUDs. Thirty-four percent currently use a modern method of contraception.54
1998 – In a survey conducted by US Catholic, 81 percent of Catholics believe a married couple has the right to follow their own conscience on the decision to use birth control. Forty percent say Humanae Vitae was a mistake.56
L
loyola_rambler
Guest
footnotes on the above:
26 1982 National Survey of Family Growth.
28 Philip S. Kaufman, Why You Can Disagree and Remain a Faithful Catholic, (Bloomington, IN: Meyer-Stone Books, 1989), p. 71.
29 Peter Steinfels, “Papal Birth Control Letter Retains Its Grip,” New York Times, August 1, 1993.
30 “Condom Use To Halt Spread of AIDS,” The Wanderer, January 5, 1989.
31 “Debate Rages as Catholics Mark 30 Years of Humanae Vitae,” Kaiser Family Foundation Daily Reproductive Health Report, July 29, 1998.
40 Social Weather Stations, Inc., July 1991 national survey of 1,200 adults, including about 1,000 Catholics.
45 Angus Reid Group, March 1993, nationwide poll of 1,501 adults , including 533 Catholics: The Reid Report, September 1993.
46 The Independent, (UK), October 11, 1993.
47 Czech Statistical Office, 1993 Reproductive Health Survey, printed by the Center for Disease Control, US Department of Health and Human Services, January 1994, based on interviews with nationally representative sample of 4,497 women, married or in union, 15-44 years old, February-June 1993.
48 New York Times/CBS News poll, April 21-23, 1994, subsample of 446 Catholics, MOE ±5%.
49 Los Angeles Times mail-back survey conducted from September 1993 to January 1994: for 2,087 responding priests (of 5,000 surveys mailed), MOE ±3%; for 1,049 responding women religious (of 2,500 surveys mailed); MOE± 4%.
50 David Crary, “France – Fired Bishop,” Associated Press, January 16, 1995.
51 Time/CNN nationwide poll of 1,000 adults, conducted by Yankelovich Partners, September 27-28, 1995, MOE ±3%; subsample of 500 Catholics, MOE ±4.5 %.
52 US News and World Report survey of 1,000 American adults, conducted by Market Facts Telenation, designed by Lake Research and Tarrance Group, September 23-24, 1995, MOW ±3.5 %; subsample of 493 Catholics, MOE ±4.5 %.
53 “Des Grands Désaccords sur ‘L’ Evangile de la Vie,” La Cité, May 4, 1995.
54 Demographic and Health Survey of 12,612 women, including 9,808 Catholic women, conducted in 1995.
55 Robert Kelly, “Nothing really new in AIDS document,” National Catholic Register, March 3, 1996.
56 Joan Brechenridge, “Catholic Groups Demand Birth-Control Crackdown,” Globe and Mail, July 29, 1998.
26 1982 National Survey of Family Growth.
28 Philip S. Kaufman, Why You Can Disagree and Remain a Faithful Catholic, (Bloomington, IN: Meyer-Stone Books, 1989), p. 71.
29 Peter Steinfels, “Papal Birth Control Letter Retains Its Grip,” New York Times, August 1, 1993.
30 “Condom Use To Halt Spread of AIDS,” The Wanderer, January 5, 1989.
31 “Debate Rages as Catholics Mark 30 Years of Humanae Vitae,” Kaiser Family Foundation Daily Reproductive Health Report, July 29, 1998.
40 Social Weather Stations, Inc., July 1991 national survey of 1,200 adults, including about 1,000 Catholics.
45 Angus Reid Group, March 1993, nationwide poll of 1,501 adults , including 533 Catholics: The Reid Report, September 1993.
46 The Independent, (UK), October 11, 1993.
47 Czech Statistical Office, 1993 Reproductive Health Survey, printed by the Center for Disease Control, US Department of Health and Human Services, January 1994, based on interviews with nationally representative sample of 4,497 women, married or in union, 15-44 years old, February-June 1993.
48 New York Times/CBS News poll, April 21-23, 1994, subsample of 446 Catholics, MOE ±5%.
49 Los Angeles Times mail-back survey conducted from September 1993 to January 1994: for 2,087 responding priests (of 5,000 surveys mailed), MOE ±3%; for 1,049 responding women religious (of 2,500 surveys mailed); MOE± 4%.
50 David Crary, “France – Fired Bishop,” Associated Press, January 16, 1995.
51 Time/CNN nationwide poll of 1,000 adults, conducted by Yankelovich Partners, September 27-28, 1995, MOE ±3%; subsample of 500 Catholics, MOE ±4.5 %.
52 US News and World Report survey of 1,000 American adults, conducted by Market Facts Telenation, designed by Lake Research and Tarrance Group, September 23-24, 1995, MOW ±3.5 %; subsample of 493 Catholics, MOE ±4.5 %.
53 “Des Grands Désaccords sur ‘L’ Evangile de la Vie,” La Cité, May 4, 1995.
54 Demographic and Health Survey of 12,612 women, including 9,808 Catholic women, conducted in 1995.
55 Robert Kelly, “Nothing really new in AIDS document,” National Catholic Register, March 3, 1996.
56 Joan Brechenridge, “Catholic Groups Demand Birth-Control Crackdown,” Globe and Mail, July 29, 1998.
L
luckyirishguy14
Guest
I’m orthodox, but I have to be tolerant of liberal ideas as well. I’m a kid, and my parents don’t want me to leak gasoline on someone’s fire and get burned. In order to be a Catholic, you have to agree with the doctrine; otherwise, you’re being a hypocrite. Why do we lament John Kerry for being Catholic?
R
robertaf
Guest
Good Morning Church
Please notice one thing when you quote me on the 93% thingy.
I didn’t say they used Artificial Birth Control, I said they believed in it. I may disagree with something but remain in obedience to the Church. In my own case, I’m an old broad and don’t worry about such things.
I don’t remember where I got the stat. I read it somewhere, uh, doesn’t that make it true?
OK, I am, what I consider, a very orthodox Catholic. I am also a political conservative. I also am a longstanding Catholic Charismatic.
loyola rambler is liberal, I think, and not involved at all with the Charismatic Renewal.
We are friends and have deep love and respect for each other. It isn’t necessary to be so divided with those you disagree with.
As far as the off topic comments I made about the 93% and the response to it.
Amazing isn’t it? We have sinners in the Church. Who among you is not a sinner? I sure am. Thank God I have a Church that provides the way for me to get cleaned up.
Please notice one thing when you quote me on the 93% thingy.
I didn’t say they used Artificial Birth Control, I said they believed in it. I may disagree with something but remain in obedience to the Church. In my own case, I’m an old broad and don’t worry about such things.
I don’t remember where I got the stat. I read it somewhere, uh, doesn’t that make it true?
OK, I am, what I consider, a very orthodox Catholic. I am also a political conservative. I also am a longstanding Catholic Charismatic.
loyola rambler is liberal, I think, and not involved at all with the Charismatic Renewal.
We are friends and have deep love and respect for each other. It isn’t necessary to be so divided with those you disagree with.
As far as the off topic comments I made about the 93% and the response to it.
Amazing isn’t it? We have sinners in the Church. Who among you is not a sinner? I sure am. Thank God I have a Church that provides the way for me to get cleaned up.
- Status