Orthodox Rebuttal of Fatima Teachings

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There is currently another thread on Fatima The problem with Fatima - #183 by Erikaspirit16 as well as one on Lourdes.

As other people have said, these are “private revelations,” which simply means that although the Church approves them in the sense that they do not contain anything against Church doctrine, they are not a matter of faith. You can be a perfectly good Catholic whether or not you believe them to be miraculous or just superstitious nonsense. Your call.
 
The miracles dont resemble the miracles of the New Testament
These seems rather like “New Testament” miracles to me:
1º Well, uncountable “cures” during the decades leading up to the recognition of the apparitions.
2º We might add the cure through the recently canonized Francisco and Jacinta Marto.
3º The Holy family, appearing together.
4º Conversions in great number, and an increase in faith and devotion.
5º Extraordinary miracles for all to see.
6º The Mother of God speaking.
(I guess all of these, and more, are things that happened in “new testament” times.)
And messages seem glory seeking of for the Mother of our Lord.
Jesus himself told sister Lúcia latter His purpose to bring greater devotion and glory to His mothers Immaculate Heart next to His own, and therefore bring glory to God himself.
Because Mary is more patient than God?
Because Our Lord never said there wouldn’t be just punished, yet His mother Our Lady forgave all and asked her Son to forgive all. Our Lord himself said:" Woman, behold thy son!" and Our Lady intercedes for us all since we are her children.
 
Dude, be realistic. Just because it’s called the miracle of the sun doesn’t mean the sun actually danced. It was a vision or localized event with 50,000 witnesses.
So the sun did not dance and it was not a miracle but only some optical illusion effect due to the ending of a rainstorm?
 
effect due
no causes identified (by proponents or adversaries)
Optical and audible, and having a predicted date months in advance, hence repeated and verifiable.
People did see it, and the children did predict it! There is no illusion about that, and if miracles have a definition it is that God provides proof in such cases.
So the sun did not dance
It did dance.
and it was not a miracle
yes it was
 
And messages seem glory seeking of for the Mother of our Lord.
Oh yeah, right, that prayer she told the children to say during their Rosaries that goes, “Oh My Jesus, Forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of thy mercy” is definitely just Our Lady seeking glory for herself.
It’s a prayer to JESUS. She is directing people to JESUS. This is not about her.
Gloria Polo shares a story that moved me quite a lot more than Fatima
First of all, the test for an apparition is not whether you yourself are personally “moved” by it or “moved a lot” by it. The Vatican conducted an investigation of Fatima; many other people were led to faith by it; and many other people choose not to believe in it, which is fine because the Church doesn’t require anyone to believe in private revelation. The fact that it doesn’t appeal to you means absolutely nothing.

Second, Gloria Polo had a near death experience after being struck by lightning. That’s not the same thing as an apparition, and there is an entirely different body of science that could be used to critique or dimiss her experience. In any event, whatever Gloria Polo experienced was clearly a message meant for Gloria Polo to amend her ways, not a message to the whole world to mend its ways in order to avoid disaster. Apparitions are generally meant to reach people beyond just the person to whom Mary or Jesus or a saint is appearing.
 
It did dance.
Just because it’s called the miracle of the sun doesn’t mean the sun actually danced.
Well, which is it? One says the sun danced, the other says no.
People did see it, and the children did predict it! There is no illusion about that
An optical effect in the clouds due to the ending of a rainstorm is not a miracle but it is a natural occurrence.
If the sun was actually dancing around in the sky it would create chaos in the orbital planetary motions and furthermore there would be reports outside of Portugal of unusual solar activity during the time that the sun was dancing around in the sky.
 
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So the sun did not dance and it was not a miracle but only some optical illusion effect due to the ending of a rainstorm?
Either way would be pretty darn miraculous, not that I think there could have been such an illusion. Likewise, a vision appearing to all would be miraculous. There is more to a miracle than just lack of an explanation. There is also the timing, and the prediction. Sure, it may be that ten thousand people all saw the same illusion at the same time, but from different angles and just happened to interpret it the same way, or that they all had the same vision, or delusion, at the same time. But then, for one without faith, there is no capacity for belief in anything outside science.
 
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Good news is that Fatima all alleged apparitions belong to Private Revelation… which means no Catholic is bound to believe them. One can be perfectly good Catholic and not believe in one of these.

Same for other devotional practices… some will despise this comment, but even the Rosary or other devotional prayer, can be avoided and one would suffer no negative consequences as a result… same goes for devotion to saints… all saintS
 
Well, which is it? One says the sun danced, the other says no.
The reality is probably that some people saw it dance and some did not, and you can make what you want of that.

God does not make things crystal clear and easy, unless the end of the world is here, in which case it may be too late.
 
Trying to respond to this anti-Catholic Orthodox essay is like trying to catch every BB shot out of a fully-loaded cannon. It couldn’t be done without taking pages to do it.

However, I will say the following in general. First, one has to realize Eastern Orthodoxy is resolutely hostile to Latin Catholicism, and often for reasons that have nothing to do with theology. Eastern Orthodoxy is profoundly territorial, for one thing, and holds that the Latin Church cannot be “Catholic” or worldwide at all. Even the Americas, in which virtually all Catholics are Latins, must be cleansed of Latin Christianity.

Second, one has to realize that, among other things Eastern Orthodoxy opposes nearly all adaptations or doctrinal clarifications post the seventh Ecumenical Council (there have been nine). There is a reason for that. But suffice it to say that the Moscow Patriarchate accepts the sainthood of Tsar Nicholas and his family, and all kinds of miraculous events. It just doesn’t accept those of the Latins.

The article decries what it says is the deification of Mary while declaring the “deification” of everybody else. Now, probably the writer doesn’t mean “deification” of all Christians in the same way a westerner thinks of “deification”, but that’s my point. As a lifelong Catholic and one who grew up pre-VII, I never, ever, ever heard or read anyone who actually claimed Mary to be divine or the source of salvation.

So what, to a knowledgeable Catholic is she? I think nearly any Catholic would say she is worthy of high veneration. Even Muslims grant that. Like any saint, she is dear to Our Lord and as such can likely have “authority” to “ask” for extraordinary graces if we ask. After all, we, as Catholics, don’t choke on the idea of asking the prayers of particularly holy people, and we don’t blanch at the thought that the Church has “authority” to teach, to counsel, to aid our return to grace, and to pray for us. If so, why would the Mother of Jesus be disqualified from such things.

Finally, the very adaptability of the Latin Church to places, peoples and times is a strength, not a weakness. The Latin Church has over a billion adherents worldwide, while Eastern Orthodoxy claims some 270 million adherents, virtually all of whom are in Russia and whose actual adherence is probably not greater than 15% of that population, despite the claim of 150 million adherents there. Numbers don’t resolve the issue, but they can tell us something about the wisdom (perhaps even the salvific power) of adaptation to times, peoples and places.

(continued)
 
What, in the 21st Century might strike us as an odd practice or popular devotion in the 18th Century, for example, does not mean it was worthy of condemnation in the 18th. The essay admits that the recounts of FAtima are sometimes inconsistent, but they’re human recollections. Devotion to Mary that might strike us in the relatively “protestantized” or even secular 21st Century as “too much Mary” probably didn’t seem so in 1917. “Mother devotion” generally has varied from time to time and place to place. But who is to say that in an era when motherhood was less profaned than now, devotion to Mary as the ultimate mother was misguided?

In reading histories, or even Chaucer, we readily see that pilgrimages were once considered a positive good, almost to the point of being obligatory. Africans celebrate holy days with drums and dancing. We don’t. Does that mean we’re wrong or that they are? Personally, I think God has a wider acceptance than we give Him credit for…

It can be interesting to go into church buildings built for Catholic parishes in which the parishioners were of different nationalities. An “Italian” church interior is massively different from a “German” one, and each reflects particular expressions of devotion. Is one “right” and another “wrong”? I dont’ think so.

Personally, I rather like that eclecticism in the Latin Church, and I strongly suspect God does as well.

But for now, anyway, I won’t try to catch the million and a half BBs in the cannonade.
 
“For those with faith, no evidence is necessary; for those without it, no evidence will suffice.”

-Thomas Aquinas
 
Has anyone brought up Our Lady of Zeitoun yet? Just curious. ☺️
 
Eastern Orthodoxy claims some 270 million adherents, virtually all of whom are in Russia and whose actual adherence is probably not greater than 15% of that population
From where do you get your statistics of 15% adherence? How about giving us a reliable source for that.
And now what percent of Roman Catholics believe in or adhere to the Roman Catholic teaching on artificial birth control?
 
Bummer.

Ok, how 'bout Zaragoza. That ought 'a really get their goat.

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adgloriam:
It did dance.
Just because it’s called the miracle of the sun doesn’t mean the sun actually danced.
Well, which is it? One says the sun danced, the other says no.
People did see it, and the children did predict it! There is no illusion about that
An optical effect in the clouds due to …
I’ve made a new CA thread about the proof of the phenomenon at Fátima, since the events are quite complex:
Fátima - it's proofs

You folks will like it, since most of the questions here were revolving around this and there wasn’t any thread on CA with a sufficient exposition of the facts.
 
Good news is that Fatima all alleged apparitions belong to Private Revelation… which means no Catholic is bound to believe them. One can be perfectly good Catholic and not believe in one of these.
If you deny Fátima you have to believe either 1) Catholics have a knack for making apparitions up or 2) Catholics are tricked by demons often.

So a good Catholic who disbelieves Fátima would be pretty distressed about other Catholics who do believe into it.
 
Bear in mind also that, unlike the bible Christian world, we do not latch onto a favorite opinion and believe thus. We have an entirety of beliefs - the deposit of faith that leads and guides us. There are fringe members of the loosely-knit Orthodox world who have chips on their shoulders - typical of the rebel. Those who scream the loudest get the most attention, just as with those who make the most outrageous declarations. None of this comports with Saint Paul’s teaching on the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit. The men you are reading are preaching division - that cannot be of the Holy Spirit. Period.

Best to ignore them and pray for them - we can do nothing better.
 
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