OSAS- Once Saved Always Saved

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fhansen said:
God bless LatinRight. As usual you have fact mixed with fiction here. The CC teaches specifically against the predestination of anyone to hell. That would involve a petty and mean and fickle little evil god indeed, if He were to actually, from the beginning, predestine some to eternal bliss and predestine the rest to eternal torment. He foreknows; He does not predetermine. Our wills are the last voice in saying “yes” or “no”; God uses our choices in His judgments. The doctrine regarding the predestination of the elect is a more or less moot point anyway, since we cannot know with certainty who they are.
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God bless Fhansen and every readers of the CAF.

The teaching of the Catholic Church negative predestination of the reprobates to hell is NOT A FICTION, it is FACT.

The Catholic Church teaches the reprobates negatively predestined to hell from all eternity, this is not a heresy.

What Calvin use to teach that the reprobates positively predestined to hell that is the Catholic Church teaches heresy.

The Catholic teachings on predestination is clear.
As it is Dogma of the Catholic Church, it is high level teachings.

**CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: PREDESTINATION

EXCERPT**
Considering that not all men reach their supernatural end in heaven, but that many are eternally lost through their own fault, there MUST EXIST a twofold predestination:

(a) one to heaven …

(b) one to the pains of hell …

However, according to present usages to which we shall adhere in the course of the article, it is better to call the latter decree the Divine “reprobation”, so that the term predestination is reserved for the Divine decree of the happiness of the elect.

The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the good is the reprobation of the wicked.

This plan of Divine reprobation may be conceived either as absolute and unconditional or conditional.

The conceptual difference between the two kinds of reprobation lies in this:

(a) **NEGATIVE REPROBATION **merely implies the absolute will not to grant the bliss of heaven, though not positively predestined to hell, yet they are absolutely predestined not to go to heaven (cf. above, I, B).

(b) **POSITIVE REPROBATION **means the absolute will to condemn to hell. End quote. Emphasis mine.

The Catholic Church teaches negative predestination of the reprobates to hell and call it: Decree the Divine Reprobation, this is where sometimes misunderstanding comes in, when someone doesn’t know what the ‘Decree the Divine Reprobation’ means.

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CCC 600; “To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of predestination, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace …”

He foreknows; He does not predetermine. Our wills are the last voice in saying “yes” or “no”; God uses our choices in His judgments.

I perfectly agree with CCC 600 and with your above statement Fhansen.

The teachings of the Catholic Church, The DE FIDE Dogma of the Predestination of the elect and THE SAME TEACHINGS OF THE SCRIPTURES (Rom.8:20-30; Eph.1:4-5; 2 Tim.4-5; Rom.11:29; John 5:24; John 3:16; 1 John 5:13 etc. is CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT teachings.

Until I studied the BEAUTIFUL teachings of the Catholic Church on the Predestination of the elect I believed my salvation depends on my ability.

Now I know, the grace of God takes me up to heaven, (in fact my salvation is His gift, protected by His grace) and provides me abundant grace to keep doing supernatural works freely out of sheer love for the glory of God and out of sheer love for others.

Do you really believe Fhansen, that little is the differences between the reprobates who are reprobated because they vehemently rejecting God and His grace and the elect who are having God’s different spiritual gifts, the Holy Spirit burning in their new hearts (“they are filled with new vine” – Acts 2:4-13), and still they cannot know they are elect or reprobates???

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St. Paul not only was sure about his salvation but he encouraged other Christians as well that they should be sure too.

Phil.1:6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

In 2 Cor.13:5-6, God went far further by COMMANDING every Christians to TEST their standing/faith to make sure that they are among the genuine Christians/elect.

2 Cor.13:5-6; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
Quote: Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith. Test yourselves.
Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – Unless indeed you fail to meet the test! End quote.

When God gives us a COMMAND to test our faith/standing, God has given us the grace and the ability/knowledge to KNOW the test results.

No one has a mandate to stop us to do the test and to KNOW the test results.

No one is superior to the WORD OF GOD, not the Magisterium CCC 86, not the Trent, not even an angel from heaven!!!

THE ULTIMATE CONFIDENCE

Rom.8:38-39; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
For I am sure that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. – Rom.8:29-30; Rom.11:29; etc. Predestination of the elect (*DE FIDE *Dogma) positively confirms Rom.8:38-39.

In the following Bible verses, St. Paul’s concerns is **DISQUALIFIED from heaven, or DISQUALIFIED from his position, his glory and his crowns in heaven??? **

1 Cor.9:27; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Phil.3:12-14; (Ignatius Catholic Study Bible)
Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me His own.
Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead.
I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

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**I’m sure St. Paul knew Catholic theology: **

THE SPIRITUAL POSITION OF GOD’S CHILDREN/ELECT

First theological fact: Their names stands written in the Book of Life from all eternity.

Second theological fact: They are predestined to heaven from all eternity.

Third theological fact: Heaven is in their bag from all eternity.

Fourth theological fact: Everlasting life is in their bag from all eternity.

Fifth theological fact: God performs His part of a valid baptism in heaven.
Only God’s children/elect can have valid baptism, no one else!!!

PREDESTINATION OF THE REPROBATES TO HELL. With Catholic terminology: Decree The Divine Reprobation.

The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the elect to heaven is Decree The Divine Reprobation (negative predestination to hell) of the reprobates.

First theological fact: The names of the reprobates taken out from the Book of Life from all eternity. – As their names are TAKEN OUT from the Book of Life, they can NEVER HAVE LIFE, they can NEVER have life for OTHER multiple reasons as well!!!

Second theological fact: They are predestined to hell from all eternity.

Third theological fact: Hell is in their bag from all eternity.

Fourth theological fact: Everlasting spiritual and physical death is in their bag from all eternity. – Everlasting spiritual and physical death is their past, present and future state.

Fifth theological fact: God performs His part of a valid baptism of the (spirit + soul) of the elect in heaven.

Reprobates CAN NEVER have valid baptism for many other reasons as well, their rejection of God and His grace, if a reprobate would have a valid baptism and would die one second after baptism, he would end up in heaven and God would lose His omniscience, etc.!!!

Now we are ready to answer the question that St. Paul’s concerns in 1 Cor.9:27 and in Phil.3:12-14 was that he can be DISQUALIFIED from heaven, or he can be DISQUALIFIED from his position, his glory and his crowns in heaven???

ANSWER
In Phil.3:12 he has stated: “Christ Jesus has made me His own.” – This is a positive statement that he is an elect of God, of course he has stated it in other Bible verses that he is sure about it (Rom.8:38-39; Phil.19-23; Phil.1:6; etc.).

**It would be a theological and logical fallacy **for anyone to “press on toward the goal for the prize” which is (heaven) already and irrevocably is in his bag from all eternity, protected by God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance.

What is not in St. Paul’s bag yet, his rewards, position, glory, crowns in heaven.
**This is St. Paul “pressing on toward the goal for the prize,” his rewards, position, glory, crowns in heaven. **

Any child/elect of God can be disqualified from his rewards in heaven but no child/elect of God can be disqualified from heaven. – *DE FIDE *Dogma.

**Every member of the entire human race **belong one of the above two groups, there is no middle ground between the two.

God has given us a COMMAND in 2:Cor.13:5-6 to test our standing.

In my opinion, we can know the test results from Rom.8:15-16; John 5:24; 1 John 5:13; (Rom.5:18 + Rom.3:24); Rom.8:29-30; Rom.8:38-39; Rom.11:29; etc. – Some reprobates who are among different Christian groups (1 John 2:19) never believe these Bible verses.

**Every Bible verse **written in the Scripture that people can be cut of and end up in hell written for the education of the elect and for the warnings of the reprobates.

When the reprobates stand before the judgment seat they cannot say they are not warned.

God bless Fhansen and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight
 
The Church can speak for herself:

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621
 
LatinRight said:
Continuation

**I’m sure St. Paul knew Catholic theology: **

THE SPIRITUAL POSITION OF GOD’S CHILDREN/ELECT

First theological fact: Their names stands written in the Book of Life from all eternity.

Second theological fact: They are predestined to heaven from all eternity.

Third theological fact: Heaven is in their bag from all eternity.

Fourth theological fact: Everlasting life is in their bag from all eternity.

Fifth theological fact: God performs His part of a valid baptism in heaven.
Only God’s children/elect can have valid baptism, no one else!!!

PREDESTINATION OF THE REPROBATES TO HELL. With Catholic terminology: Decree The Divine Reprobation.

The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the elect to heaven is Decree The Divine Reprobation (negative predestination to hell) of the reprobates.

First theological fact: The names of the reprobates taken out from the Book of Life from all eternity. – As their names are TAKEN OUT from the Book of Life, they can NEVER HAVE LIFE, they can NEVER have life for OTHER multiple reasons as well!!!

Second theological fact: They are predestined to hell from all eternity.

Third theological fact: Hell is in their bag from all eternity.

Fourth theological fact: Everlasting spiritual and physical death is in their bag from all eternity. – Everlasting spiritual and physical death is their past, present and future state.

Fifth theological fact: God performs His part of a valid baptism of the (spirit + soul) of the elect in heaven.

Reprobates CAN NEVER have valid baptism for many other reasons as well, their rejection of God and His grace, if a reprobate would have a valid baptism and would die one second after baptism, he would end up in heaven and God would lose His omniscience, etc.!!!

Now we are ready to answer the question that St. Paul’s concerns in 1 Cor.9:27 and in Phil.3:12-14 was that he can be DISQUALIFIED from heaven, or he can be DISQUALIFIED from his position, his glory and his crowns in heaven???

ANSWER
In Phil.3:12 he has stated: “Christ Jesus has made me His own.” – This is a positive statement that he is an elect of God, of course he has stated it in other Bible verses that he is sure about it (Rom.8:38-39; Phil.19-23; Phil.1:6; etc.).

**It would be a theological and logical fallacy **for anyone to “press on toward the goal for the prize” which is (heaven) already and irrevocably is in his bag from all eternity, protected by God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance.

What is not in St. Paul’s bag yet, his rewards, position, glory, crowns in heaven.
**This is St. Paul “pressing on toward the goal for the prize,” his rewards, position, glory, crowns in heaven. **

Any child/elect of God can be disqualified from his rewards in heaven but no child/elect of God can be disqualified from heaven. – *DE FIDE *Dogma.

**Every member of the entire human race **belong one of the above two groups, there is no middle ground between the two.

God has given us a COMMAND in 2:Cor.13:5-6 to test our standing.

In my opinion, we can know the test results from Rom.8:15-16; John 5:24; 1 John 5:13; (Rom.5:18 + Rom.3:24); Rom.8:29-30; Rom.8:38-39; Rom.11:29; etc. – Some reprobates who are among different Christian groups (1 John 2:19) never believe these Bible verses.

**Every Bible verse **written in the Scripture that people can be cut of and end up in hell written for the education of the elect and for the warnings of the reprobates.

When the reprobates stand before the judgment seat they cannot say they are not warned.

God bless Fhansen and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight
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You sound more Protestant than Catholic every time I read your posts.
 
Duane1966 said:
:rotfl: You have to wonder about warnings for the reprobates. If they are reprobate, what good would warning them do? 🤷
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I’ve always wondered, if the elect are the elect, and the reprobate are the reprobate, what is the point of religion and scripture and all? Just to play mind games with us humans?
 
mackbrislawn said:
I’ve always wondered, if the elect are the elect, and the reprobate are the reprobate, what is the point of religion and scripture and all? Just to play mind games with us humans?
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Right. And why bother letting Adam fall, with all the pain and suffering that followed in our non-Edenic world? Why not just stock heaven with the elect and hell with the reprobate from the beginning?
 
mackbrislawn said:
I’ve always wondered, if the elect are the elect, and the reprobate are the reprobate, what is the point of religion and scripture and all? Just to play mind games with us humans?
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God knows from all time, what choices a person will make till the end of their life. The individual doesn’t know that. God doesn’t force anyone to make any of their choices they make. That is the purpose of giving us free will, memory, and intellect .That is what makes us ultimately culpable for what we do.

The next group of questions then is,
  • why does God allow someone to be born that He knows is a reprobate and going to hell at the end of their life?
  • the same could be asked of the elect? Why bother with life just put them in heaven with the angels
  • Obviously God thinks the process of life here is necessary.
  • Does that make God a mean God?
  • We do the sins, not God
  • How can a reprobate be originally made in the image and likeness of God only to end up in hell?
  • Reprobates become that on their own.
  • Why did Jesus do what He did if hell still exists and the threat of one going there is for every single human being?
  • Hell is a choice, a consequence for bad behavior one does in this life.
God tested His angels, the first creatures He made. And 1/3 failed the test and were thrown out of heaven.

When He made humans to His image and likeness. God tests us as well.

And the results:

He gives us this warning

Deuteronomy 30:19

And what do most people choose by their behavior?
Death and curses

Matthew 7:13-14 ,

13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy,[a] that leads to destruction, ἀπώλεια, ] and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

Since those who go first to purgatory, go to heaven after that, that means they are in the “few” as well.

The “Many” i.e. the rest then, believe it or not, they chose death and curses, their choices weren’t bringing blessings and life, therefore they go to hell.

Is that God’s fault? No. People make that their choice by what they chose in this life and died in that state. Therefore God eternalizes their direction
 
OSAS is one of those beliefs that I have a hard time with. Yes, on the surface, it would make sense that if someone is saved, then they will always be saved; however, the only one who knows who is saved and who is not is God himself. We cannot foresee the future, so someone can be saved today, but 30 years down the line do something that would cause others to believe he was never saved to begin with (i.e. denounce God). The phrase ends up sounding like a toying with a very serious matter that is salvation. Who is saved and who isn’t is squarely up to God alone.
 
fhansen said:
My friend, if you don’t think that bogus, inauthentic private revelations abound, then you only need look towards half of the televangelists out there. Or attend a pentecostal church for a few years like I did. Either way, the RCC does not rely on private revelation for determining right doctrine, but rather on the public revelation that was once for all delivered with Christ’s advent.
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Hi fh,

agree to bogus private revelation abounding. still does not negate authentic "private “revelation”. For most truths there are bogus counter or copy cat truths.

In biblical terms"private" is apart from what Holy Ghost meant or intended. “Private” is then “wrong”.

I was using term as opposed to "public’’, more as “personal”. That is, it takes place in the "inner " man.

I would say the CC relied /relies on that authentic, personal, divine revelation, which is then made public.

Indeed wisdom cries out from the rooftops, and faith comes by hearing, yet it is an inner draw, and inner illumination that takes place, on every point of faith, much like Peter’s great confession that Jesus is the Christ, as divinely revealed to him…quite personal.

Blessings
 
fhansen said:
benhur, if by this you mean the urgings and promptings and understanding and inspirations and conviction and grace in general given by the Holy Spirit then, yes, we’re all blest by these in one form or another. Faith itself, as a gift, is an instance of a “private revelation” in that sense, especially when faith is considered as knowledge and a dim foretaste of the things to come, the vision or immediate knowledge of God.

But when the Church uses the term “private revelation” she’s speaking of an incomparably profound, direct communication of God to man, with specific information given, via such means as locutions, visions, etc…
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👍
 
steve_b said:
Paul is all about getting to heaven

Why subdue his body?
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H steve,

I think it is much more an abundant living drive that Paul had in Christ, beyond “getting to heaven”.

As I said, it is about pleasing God, now, for we are in eternity now.

“Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus…Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it…” Phil 3:12,13

If it was just heaven , or the resurrection, of course he has not attained it yet, if that is what he meant. Why would he mean that, when it is so obvious that he is still alive , on this earth ? I think he wants to do the works that have been prepared for him since the foundation of the world. He does not want to be like Moses, and be disqualified from entering into the promised land (though he was still “saved”), because he did not control his flesh/body.

As to the resurrection, this is also the day the books are opened up, and we will be rewarded according to our faith/works.
Look how many times he talks about sins of the flesh. And what is the consequence if one does NOT subdue the flesh?
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It definitely can diminish your use of faith or harm your ministry. No one denies that ministers must be even more vigilant.it is just not that continual sin can lead to the ultimate sin.

Blessings
 
benhur said:
Hi fh,

agree to bogus private revelation abounding. still does not negate authentic "private “revelation”. For most truths there are bogus counter or copy cat truths.

In biblical terms"private" is apart from what Holy Ghost meant or intended. “Private” is then “wrong”.

I was using term as opposed to "public’’, more as “personal”. That is, it takes place in the "inner " man.

I would say the CC relied /relies on that authentic, personal, divine revelation, which is then made public.

Indeed wisdom cries out from the rooftops, and faith comes by hearing, yet it is an inner draw, and inner illumination that takes place, on every point of faith, much like Peter’s great confession that Jesus is the Christ, as divinely revealed to him…quite personal.

Blessings
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“Private” revelation is a long-used term for the kind of revelation Peter would have had, among others. While the church obviously recognizes the value of these-and has benefited from them immensely over the centuries by many of her members being so blest, the core doctrines of the faith were received at the beginning. The creeds offer examples of these doctrines that serve as the foundation or basic structure of the faith and no private revelation can override or supplant or contradict them.
 
Duane1966 said:
Hi Ben,

Please name me one saint canonized by the Catholic Church that espoused the doctrine of OSAS.
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Hi , I used the term "saints’’ in biblical terms, not strict CC definition. And so was speaking of "protestants’’. No C espoused OSAS , although Augustine laid groundwork for Clavin. Those that argue against “tulip” also argue against some of Augustine’s points on the matter.

Blessings
 
fhansen said:
“Private” revelation is a long-used term for the kind of revelation Peter would have had, among others. While the church obviously recognizes the value of these-and has benefited from them immensely over the centuries by many of her members being so blest, the core doctrines of the faith were received at the beginning. The creeds offer examples of these doctrines that serve as the foundation or basic structure of the faith and no private revelation can override or supplant or contradict them.
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yes , but the "core doctrines " were all first apprehended then “privately”, as the Peter example (which is not far fetched for it is Peter and the apostles that gave us the “core”).

Blessings

PS. and we continue to apprehend the “core” by same method of inner revelation…it is the fundamental “value” on which the church is founded.
 
benhur said:
No C espoused OSAS , although Augustine laid groundwork for Clavin. Those that argue against “tulip” also argue against some of Augustine’s points on the matter.

Blessings
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Hi Ben,

Well actually, we can find in the various writings of St. Augustine a rejection of all of TULIP. So those who argue against TULIP are consistent with that Catholic saint.
 
mackbrislawn said:
I’ve always wondered, if the elect are the elect, and the reprobate are the reprobate, what is the point of religion and scripture and all? Just to play mind games with us humans?
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Very few elect are born “elect”(John the baptist?). They must be born again.

Your question is like asking if some people are destined to jump off the cliff and others not, what is the use of the cliff ?

Blessings
 
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