OSAS

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I once Believed in the Once saved always saved Bs, but now i understand, two Things.

I, by Following God’s word and his church, am saved. I know i am because God says if you obey me then you will be rewarded. but, God also says that we must Obey till the end. If we screw up then God has made ways for us to get back in Grace, but you must Confess and do as the Church and God says.

I know i am saved and assured, because of my Desire to Follow God and do as he commands. That is a desire not because of Fear, but out of love for him. That is our assurance. If we know that we do everything in our Power to follow him, then we are saved, but we must DO EVERYTHING, in our power to endure to the end. It Gets hard, that is why God sent us his helper, the Holy Spirit.

Yes, We must acknowledge Christ as lord. we must bow our hearts to the one, true king, but then we must fight against the powers of Darkness till we day we breath our last breath. We must work with all of our being to destroy the gates of He.ll and Satans reign on this earth. but we must fight, we can not win this war sitting on our as.ses. That is right i said it As.ses!

To be saved you msut fight and endure to the end. Only then will God say to us, well done, good and faithful servant. Salvation is a two way street. God says and even made oaths of the things he will do for us when we believe but we must uphold our end of the bargin, or else God’s end might just be taken away from us. Prime example of humanities ability to lose it’s salvation, The Parable of the Servants and the Talents… People who believe in OSAS explain that parable…
This is true. We can have confidence we’re saved by the fruit in our lives. This is why the CC is wise in teaching that those fruits must accompany our faith in order for it to mean anything-that we must do our part by persevering. This confidence combined with a vigilant attitude is not so unlike the confidence or assurance of many Protestants in actual practice-it’s just mitigated with a bit more prudence IMO.
 
everyone wants to go to heaven, i have yet to meet someone who says that hell is where they want to spend eternity. so the age old question, how can i have eternal life?

can one be sure of salvation?

does one live on the edge of falling to either side of the line?

Jesus said the road would be narrow, so how does one know the road they are on is the one that leads to heaven?

(Snip)
I cut out the story so that we can address the core question of your question and thread title.

The Answer, as clearly stated in the Bible is YES we can be “sure”, (as in have assurance) of Salvation. But at the same time The Bible is equally clear that we are not “Guarenteed” salvation based on anything so simplistic as the OSAS theology.

Jesus constantly talked in terms of taking Action on belief.
Somewhere Jesus warns the Jews to not rely on theif birth to save them (God can raise up sons of Abraham from the stones…)
Jesus himself, - the most “saved” of individuals, - was temped by Satan.
St Paul speaks of “Running the race…” so as to win the prize. etc.
St James declares that “Faith without Works is dead”
And on and on…
This constant tension in the NT between “Knowing” and still being in danger of loosing faith.

Jesus sets a very HIGH bar for us when He declares that:
**“You must be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect.” **
In other words, we are all called to be saints for there are only saints in heaven.

So what is one to do with all of this???
  • Turn Fully to God. Do not look over your shoulder at your past life, but Live fully and completely in Him and For Him. Love Him with All you Being.
  • Pray Constantly - aloud or silently - formally and informally. Talk to God as a Friend and ask His counsel
  • Be converted, not just once, but each and every day.
  • Grow in Holiness through faith, prayer, and acts of Charity.
  • Seek God’s Truth in His Word and apply it constantly.
  • When you fall, get up again - confess - make amends as necessary and get back on the narrow road. - Do it Quickly - As soon as you realize your error!!
  • Guard against any weakening in your resolve to Serve God.
  • Do not compromise with sin. That which offends God must be avoided - whether large or small.
  • Accept any suffering God is pleased to send you and thus carry your cross. The better you carry your own Cross, the lighter becomes the Cross that Jesus Carried. Lift your own weight.
Remember that Salvation is not complicated - It is not “Rocket Science”. If it were Jesus would have had to wait until the mid last century to come.
Salvation is as simple as athletics - And as difficult.
Playing Baseball or Golf or Running are ALL “simple” things, but to do them well - To be dedicated to them - to be the Best - to make your living at them, requires Constant, Daily effort, and not just “showing up” but being willing to “forsake all else” to train, compete, and hopefully win.

So - If you can look at yourself right now, today and honestly say that you are, to the truly best of your knowledge, on the “Narrow way”, turned fully toward God in all that you do, then you can say you have assurance (though not insurance) of salvation. However that "Assurance can only be in the present tense for WE cannot KNOW what lies ahead and how we will react, even to the point of loosing faith.
So - don’t get cocky, for the Evil one is always right there waiting and the further along the narrow road we go, the harder satan will try to trip us up.

As for the various discussions re: this or that Bible verse, these thing always evolve into an acedemic discussion that has no real bearing on “my” salvation. OSAS may have some basis if viewed from God’s perspective, but it falls short when viewed from our severely limited human perspective.

Finally I will recommend a book called, "The Fulfillment of all All Desire, by Ralph Martin. I think you will find it a fastinating read, whether you are catholic or non-catholic.

Peace
James
 
The Parable of the Servants and the Talents… People who believe in OSAS explain that parable…
The Parable of the Talents

**Matthew 25:14

14"Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them.
**
Since the first word is “again” we need to know the original reference(s). The previous Scripture is also a parable. So logically, the position and context mean that these 2 parables are addressing the same issue.

Matthew 25:1-4, 10-13. (note, I only picked certain verses for the sake of brevity. I believe that they are all in context.)

1**"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps.
10"But while they (the unprepared virgins) were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
11"Later the others also came. ‘Sir! Sir!’ they said. ‘Open the door for us!’
12"But he replied, ‘I tell you the truth, I don’t know you.’
13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.**

This obviously refers to gaining entrance into heaven, and that it will come by surprise.

**Matthew 24:35-37 (New International Version)

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,but only the Father.**

Now that we have the context of the previous parable, back to the talents.

**Matthew 25:14-18, 26-30.

14"Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. 15To one he gave five talents[a] of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. 17So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. 18But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.

26"His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

28" ‘Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’**

Let’s also look into the seed mentioned above. Both the seed and the fruit are repeated symbols throughout the Bible.

**Matthew 7:15-

A Tree and Its Fruit
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.** Personally, I believe that the book of James, especially “Faith without works is dead” is how we identify the good fruit from the bad fruit.

21**"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
**
All of these parables refer to salvation. Being prepared for salvation (oil), works in *accordance *of salvation (talents) and the product of salvation (fruit). So since no man knows **the day or the hour **of Jesus’ return, Being prepared (in advance) is crucial.
OSAS starts with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, the preparedness of salvation. Once God places His Holy Spirit within us, then we are ready to do the good works that God has prepared for us to do. After His resurrection, Jesus met the apostles in the upper room. He specifically told these cowards to wait for Pentecost, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that He sent, after He went back to heaven. Then these cowards became the bravest of men testifying to the truth of Jesus at great cost, even unto death, as a result of receiving the Holy Spirit of God. In OSAS, this is a one time event. Scripture states that the only unpardonable sin is blaspheming, or simply not accepting, the offer of God’s Holy Spirit, the sign or seal of our salvation. And I believe it is impossible to blaspheme or evict the Holy Spirit once He has made a home within us.

In Christ Jesus,
 
And I believe it is impossible to blaspheme or evict the Holy Spirit once He has made a home within us.
What makes you believe that it is impossible to evict the Holy Spirit once He has made a home within us? The apostles never taught this and the Church never taught this.

What the apostles and the Church have taught is that some sins are so grave that they alienate us from God and we must seek forgivness before we can reeenter into a relationship with God (in His 3 persons - including Holy Spirit).

Apostolic Catholic teaching is that a person receives the Holy Spirit at baptism – a sacrament that wipes away all sins. At this time the Holy Spirit immediately takes residence within the soul and starts further sanctifying the soul and perfecting it in the virtues of faith, hope, charity and love. This can be a lifelong process. But if a person commits a grave sin the Holy Spirit (and the rest of the trinity) will leave that defiled soul and not return until it repents and is forgiven of its sins (normatively through sacramental confession). All sanctifying grace is lost if we sin gravely and restored if we repent and absolved through confession.

James
 
i would like to tell all of you that it has been my pleasure communicating with you all and my hope is that all catholic or protestant or evangelical repent and trust Christ for their salvation.

God bless you all
 
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Maranatha:
Yes. And I apologize. I was being vague on these questions, and that was uncalled for. You posed 3 very good questions, which I side stepped by not addressing in the eternal perspective that I knew that you meant, which was wrong.
All is forgiven - I’ve done much worse! Im not here to judge you. This can be a difficult topic - perhaps I have been through it a few more times…
Persevering (seeking) unto salvation, as well as persevering (obedience) after receiving the Holy Spirit are both from God.
Yes, of course. It is all by way of grace, for apart from grace - apart from the vine which is Christ - we can do nothing. But we have to explore something you didnt quite address: is it possible for someone who has persevered unto salvation to fail to persevere (obedience) in salvation? Im not sure if you have answered this question in its entirety. Here it is again: Is our perseverance purely an act of God or does it require us to respond to Gods grace and choose to cooperate? I hate to continue to press on this question but it really is important. I want to reiterate that this question is entirely directed at the regenerate Christian who has “accepted Christ” and has been baptized and confirmed in the faith. It is essentially asking if it is possible for such a person to “love the world”, “return to the vomit”, to be lulled into “worldly desires” - in short, to renounce their faith (apostasy) or commit idolatry after having received the freeing gift of salvation. I am well aware that no trial will befall us that is not common to others; that God is faithful and will not let us be tried beyond our strength (our grace empowered strength); and that He will provide a way out for us so that we may withstand the trials (cf 1Cor 10:13). But the fact of the matter is that we have to remain - by grace primarily and by choice secondarily - united to Christ otherwise we will lose our inheritance.

**Ephesians 2:7-9
**These are wonderful verses that address how it is we move from condemned to being saved - initially. This doesnt really address living the life and persevering in faith. Romans 1:5,6
5Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. 6And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
What are your thoughts here - why did you bold a portion of the verse? Do you believe it applies to the topic of OSAS?

These are both from Paul. Lets here some more from Paul.
1 Corinthians 10:1-15
I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea,and all of them were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.All ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from a spiritual rock that followed them, 2 and the rock was the Christ.Yet God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the desert.These things happened as examples for us, so that we might not desire evil things, as they did.And do not become idolaters, as some of them did, as it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to revel."Let us not indulge in immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell within a single day.Let us not test Christ 4 as some of them did, and suffered death by serpents.Do not grumble as some of them did, and suffered death by the destroyer. These things happened to them as an example, and they have been written down as a warning to us, upon whom the end of the ages has come.Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall.
No trial has come to you but what is human. God is faithful and will not let you be tried beyond your strength; but with the trial he will also provide a way out, so that you may be able to bear it.Therefore, my beloved, avoid idolatry.

1Cor 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Is Paul saying we cannot fall now that we are Christians? Or do you think he’s spending all this time speaking on a topic that has no baring on our salvation?
Or perhaps you think he’s not addressing Christians?

I’ve heard this last claim a few times, but the letter is addressed as follows:
Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, to the church of God that is in Corinth,** to you who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus**, called to be holy, with all those everywhere who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.

This letter is written to Christians and it clearly warms them about the eternal consequences of certain sins; loss of the inheritance of the kingdom of God.
In OSAS, works are a sign of salvation (aka fruit). You bare much fruit. I am guilty of occasionally forgetting that we should be united in Christ, so I can espouse my beliefs and doctrines. Thank You for the reminder of true priorities.
Your are kind - thank you for these compliments. :o
 
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand.

Jesus is speaking here and He says, ‘My sheep hear my voice,’ so those who hear and respond to Him follow Him. not just any sheep they have to be His sheep. this how great our God is, He gives us eternal life, notice that He did not say my sheep will work it out or earn it or you got to this so He gives eternal life with the promise of never perishing. no one can take us out of His hand this tells me that He is the one holding on to us not us to Him. if it were us holding on to Him we’d grow weak and let go then some of you would stand correct in saying we could lose our salvation.

.
Exactly what the Church teaches. It’s saints are proof.

We can have Salvation Assurance … if we intrust Christ with our discipleship. Christ asked the ‘rich’ young man to forsake his secular wealth, and be a true folower. He didn’t do it.

On the otherhand, didn’t Peter, Mary, John, and Lazarus know S.A. ? Absolutely !
They proved worthy disciples, and Christ would not let satan have them.

We can’t know another’s commitment before the final bell tolls. Thus, I can’t speak for your S.A. …or you for mine. But, Christ knows who the true sheep are, and they also know it … before the bell tolls. So, only on the personal level does S.A. have true meaning / security.
 
The Parable of the Talents

**Matthew 25:14

14"Again**, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them.

Since the first word is “again” we need to know the original reference(s). The previous Scripture is also a parable. So logically, the position and context mean that these 2 parables are addressing the same issue.

Matthew 25:1-4, 10-13. (note, I only picked certain verses for the sake of brevity. I believe that they are all in context.)

1**"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps.
10"But while they (the unprepared virgins) were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
11"Later the others also came. ‘Sir! Sir!’ they said. ‘Open the door for us!’
12"But he replied, ‘I tell you the truth, I don’t know you.’
13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.**

This obviously refers to gaining entrance into heaven, and that it will come by surprise.

**Matthew 24:35-37 (New International Version)

36"No one knows about that day or hour,** not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,but only the Father.

Now that we have the context of the previous parable, back to the talents.

**Matthew 25:14-18, 26-30.

14"Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. 15To one he gave five talents[a] of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. 17So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. 18But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.

26"His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed?** 27Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

28" ‘Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Let’s also look into the seed mentioned above. Both the seed and the fruit are repeated symbols throughout the Bible.

**Matthew 7:15-

A Tree and Its Fruit
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them.** Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Personally, I believe that the book of James, especially “Faith without works is dead” is how we identify the good fruit from the bad fruit.

21**"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
**
All of these parables refer to salvation. Being prepared for salvation (oil), works in *accordance *of salvation (talents) and the product of salvation (fruit). So since no man knows **the day or the hour **of Jesus’ return, Being prepared (in advance) is crucial.
OSAS starts with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, the preparedness of salvation. Once God places His Holy Spirit within us, then we are ready to do the good works that God has prepared for us to do. After His resurrection, Jesus met the apostles in the upper room. He specifically told these cowards to wait for Pentecost, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that He sent, after He went back to heaven. Then these cowards became the bravest of men testifying to the truth of Jesus at great cost, even unto death, as a result of receiving the Holy Spirit of God. In OSAS, this is a one time event. Scripture states that the only unpardonable sin is blaspheming, or simply not accepting, the offer of God’s Holy Spirit, the sign or seal of our salvation. And I believe it is impossible to blaspheme or evict the Holy Spirit once He has made a home within us.

In Christ Jesus,
Our salvation, that is our attainment of that supernatural union with God which constitutes eternal life, is found to be effected through solidarity as the Catholic Church has always taught and which our late great pope, John Paul II so wonderfully preached. We are not to be united with God as independent and unrelated units. Indeed, such a conception is ultimately self-contradictory since we could not be united with God without being by the very fact of that union united with all those other souls in union with Him. Our salvation is from beginning to end a progressive incorporation into a supernatural society of human souls. That society is the Church. This fundamental doctrine of Christianity may be said hardly to have developed in its exposition since the first preaching of the Apostles; it is in fact the fundamental doctrine of St. Paul as it preserved to us in his epistles. To understand the Pauline doctrine of the Church, is to have apprehended the essence of Catholicism.
 
I would like to thank y’all for letting me join in. I hope that in some small way I was a positive contributor, and did so in a God-Honoring manner. :twocents:

I have changed my signature for this last post, Because I found one better…

***We prayed a beautiful prayer for the unity of faith at our Church last night and you - and all those united to Christ through regeneration - are certainly included in those prayers…Philthy 👍

In Christ Jesus,

bud 👋
 
Thanks for your charitable posts and well wishes. I hope to see you around.

:yup:
 
i agree with what you said of money but most people put emphasis on material possessions but i want to show is how we can be sure of our salvation.
Doesn’t the “assurance” of salvation remove our utter and complete reliance upon the Lord’s mercy? Or, was His mercy a one-time event in your opinion?
 
who on here is without sin?

truthfully answer the question, do you honestly think that one can live on this earth perfect as Christ lived on this earth?
 
once saved always saved is assurance of God’s word my friends cause salvation can not be canceled.
Jerry, that does not appear to square with what Paul taught:

Philippians 2:12 "Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,"

Or Jesus:

**Matthew 10:22 “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

Matthew 24:13 “but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

Mark 13:13 “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”**

By your interpretation of scripture, you appear to have permission to go on a murderous spree, because you cannot lose your salvation. Catholics question only your interpretation of scripture. Brother to brother, I ask you to look at how recent OSAS is, in the grand scheme of Christianity.
 
I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.
 
who on here is without sin?

truthfully answer the question, do you honestly think that one can live on this earth perfect as Christ lived on this earth?
And Yet what did Christ exhort us to?
“You must be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Do I profess to be perfect? No.
Do I expect to be perfect? I will try.
How do I make up the difference of failure? God’s Loving Mercy.

As I expressed in a previous post (No 82), the Bible clearly has passages that speak of the assurance of salvation as well as passages that warn us to be on guard lest we lose our way.
If OSAS were true, then the passages warning us to be on guard would not be necessary.
If we are to be on guard then obviously the race isn’t over and it is still possible to lose.
One of the things that many of the saints of the Church tell us is that the closer we move to God in Holiness, the harder the Devil fights to pull us down. Temptations to all sorts of sins and doubts are stronger because satan knows he is losing.

I know that you are sincere in trying to understand and express your confidence in salvation and do agree that we can have confidence, but we cannot “know” this side of the veil.
Remember that, in order to be saved we must not only embrace the faith, but Keep the Faith as well.

Peace
James
 
I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.
How about if you go back and read the passages that precede that verse and see all of the instruction there. John tells his readers that IF they do this and IF they don’t do that, they will continue in grace and he writes these things so that they may know they have eternal life - IF they do all of the ifs.

Peace
James
 
i will address all of what you quote but what you seem to be afraid to answer is if you are without sin or that you will be perfect like God.

i know that i am a sinner, i know that i am capable of sinning again.

what about you?
 
i will address all of what you quote but what you seem to be afraid to answer is if you are without sin or that you will be perfect like God.

i know that i am a sinner, i know that i am capable of sinning again.

what about you?
Are you refering to me in this post?
You need to be specific.

Peace
James
 
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