Outside the Church there is no salvation

[CentralFLJames]

They believe you can ask God directly for forgiveness, and He will forgive you. I believe this also and ask Him, but I also like to receive the sacrament of Reconciliation for a special grace in receiving forgiveness for my sins.

But Catholics know better. We know that simple belief does not make a thing true. We know that “Asking God” is just that - ASKING. We know that we can NEVER PRESUME to answer for God and think “thanks God for forgiving me” without actually letting Him tell us so. We don’t think to tell God that He MUST forgive us. We know that grave sin is so bad that it puts us OUTSIDE of ANY relationship with God and we can NEVER presume that God would forgive us without His giving us the gift of Repentant Grace to be able to make that perfect contrition that can have NO attachment to sin. We know that perfect REPENTANCE is a MUST to be forgiven of grave sin’s - a repentance so perfect that we are weeping and would rather die than offend God without regard to His just punishments.

“God will have Mercy on whom He will have Mercy” but He is under not compulsion to give it to anyone who presumes upon His Mercy.

Catholics also know that those who through genuine Invincible Ignorance who escape the necessity of being a formal member of Jesus’ Church are also accountable to their moral conscience that HAS NO EXCUSE for moral depravity. Therefor Catholics know that many who are otherwise invincibly ignorant being outside the salvific grace of the Church sacraments are likely suffering the whithering effects of other natural morally grave sins (fornication, divorce, adultery, abortion/murder, slander, presumption upon God’s Mercy, sins against purity - lust, masturbation etc.).

Catholics know that Jesus was not kidding warned that “not all who call me Lord Lord will enter my kingdom - but he who does my Father’s will”. Catholics know that there is NO easy way into heaven and we must die to self.

Catholics know that we must pray for ‘these outside of the church who without some mystical relationship to her have no way of being saved.’

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

I believe, but I don’t believe what the Catholic Church teaches and never will. Does that statement send me to hell? I was a Catholic for 37 years and happy to be out of that churchy system.

    Peace,   Golfjack

golfjack - I am sorry to say that by leaving the fullness of the Catholic Church you are in even a more culpable position than if you have never been in the Catholic Church.

YOU MUST come home.

James

 

[po18guy]

I actually didn’t answer the question myself in my post above! Here is the answer:

As for why someone would turn their back, it is the age old story. God declares the path He wants us to take: Satan presents us with an alternate path, and makes that alternate seem to be better or more ‘enlightened’ or more fun, or more ‘logical’. Those that turn away are those that think that a few bites from the sweet apple couldn’t possibly be as bad as God said it would be. Satan’s influence mixed with an individual’s God-given Free Will is the reason someone would turn away from a truth that they ‘know’.

First off, welcome to the forum. Well said. Amen!

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

golfjack - I am sorry to say that by leaving the fullness of the Catholic Church you are in even a more culpable position than if you have never been in the Catholic Church.

YOU MUST come home.

James

HI James, I have a question, If you were born and baptized a catholic do they keep you on some register for the rest of your life? I know the Mormons do I just wondered. Nancy

 

[golfjack]

Don’t worry about me. I am just fine. I am a New Creature in Christ Jesus. I have been redeemed from the curse of the law ( poverty, sickness, and spiritual death). I have been declared a saint, holy, priestly, kingly, blessed coming in and out by the most High God. I praise Him day and night. You see, I have been born again from above and have been seated in heavenly places.

Most of you try to reform the outward man or the outward life, which will not save you.
Peace, Golfjack

 

[CentralFLJames]

HI James, I have a question, If you were born and baptized a catholic do they keep you on some register for the rest of your life? I know the Mormons do I just wondered. Nancy

It depends on who you mean by they? It is more a matter of “He”.

Baptism spiritually marks a soul for Christ and radically reconfigures it to make it possible for the Trinity to take residence and start the sanctification/regenerative process. God knows who are His. These if being able to persevere in the faith are written in Jesus’ very heart.

“They” in the sense of the Church Militant - means all of “us” in The Church. And yes the records are recorded into the baptismal records and kept indefinitely.

Once a Catholic ALWAYS a Catholic. But those who are spiritually marked in Christ through baptism who find themselves in hell for lack of sanctification and missing their eternal objective end or purpose suffer the greatest loss and spiritual pain since these all knew that they had literally in hand (think of that apple in the garden Eve stretched her hand for) the apple of salvation but rather than eat it let if fall to earth as if it was corrupt and unworthy of consuming. God help these - they will be an eternal self-reproach and be among the most embittered and self loathing in hell.

James

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Detales,

Well, you got one thing right “…semantic rubbish…” seems to exactly capture the essence of your post!

Let’s go over your “…primitive rubbish…” theory in history and logic and see just what we have here:

“that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ?”~OP If so, that is not the Roman Church as we unfortunately know it today.

What do you base this statement on? Surely you do not expect the Catholic Church to be huddled in the catechombs of Rome awaiting further persecution from the established government that murdered Christ and all of the Apostles except St. John, Tortured and muredred untold numbers of the followers of Christ in the various pagan sports arenas as was true during the fFrst, Second and Third century in the then known Roman Empire.

This is the Church that Christ founded on the Rock of Peter (Matt 16:18) and gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom so whatever he bound on earth was bound in heaven… No one took Peter’s keys away, they did not vanish upon his death and they certainly were not handed over to any 16th Century ‘Reformer’.

This is the same Chruch that Christ said He had more to tell the Apostles (and their successors) but they could not bear it now (John 16:12) - so, He would send the Holy Spirit to further instruct the Chruch of Christ (and, that would be the Catholic Chruch)

This is the same Catholic Church that the Earch Church Fathers nurtured after the last Apostle went to Heaven. The same Catholic Church that gave the world and all of us in it the Inspired Word of God we call the Bible - and made sure that only inspired text and no frauds were placed in the Cannon.

This same Catholic Church that can trace its authority from Christ to Peter to Benedict XVI is the one you are storming against. The Divine Plan from before the beginning of time was that frail and sinful men (the only kind there are! ) would be in charge of the Christ’s Chruch and the Holy Spirit would protect Christ’s Chruch from teaching error ("…and the gates of hell will not prevail…")

For whatever good it might have done as an organization, it is riddled with primitive rubbish founded on a false notion of separation from God.

You will simply have to define your terms and then identify from actual (as opposed to falsified sources) Catholic doctrine what it is you are talking about.

It is materialistic in this regard, postualting a dichotomy that is impossible. That dichotomy is acceptable ony because of the adversarial assumptions inherent in most languages, and an ignorance on the part of the founders of the Church as to the import of the Identitiy statements attributed to Jesus and others.

You have really gotten carried away here - it was difficult wiping the foam off of my computer screen to read all of this unhappy rhetoric. Peace. Really. Be peaceful and calm down.

According to Wiki, the philosophy of materialism holds that the only thing that exists is matter. If there is a ‘religion’ of materialsm, I do not know about it… but, if there is and their definition of what they are differs from this, please clarify. But, let’s work with this basic definition and see what we have. This same Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ on Peter prays to an IMmaterial God, to Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity Who suffered, died, was burried and rose from the dead, and to the Holy Spirit - the Personified Love between God the Father and God the Son. The Blessed Trinity is the most immaterial topic I can think about talking to you about - and, it is the core of our belief.

“Outside the Church there is no salvation” is ignorant semantic rubbish. Can God be separate from God? Impossible. You can only entertain illusory thoughts that this is so by falling for the deceptions of the Deceiver.

Outside the Church… simply means that if you believe that the Catholic Church is the True Chruch and refuse to join - you are pitting your will against God’s, Who has given you the Grace to see the Truth. How do you expect to stand before this same God and say, “I didn’t believe because I did not want to believe. Now, cut me some slack on this point.”

Don’t hold your breath waiting for a positive response.

God bless

 

[Tradycja]

Outside the Church… simply means that if you believe that the Catholic Church is the True Chruch and refuse to join - you are pitting your will against God’s

You are partially right however…no one at all is saved outside of the Church as you can see from defined dogma:

“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)

“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”*** (Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302)***

In the 1854 allocution Singulari Quadam, the Pope Pius IX said:
Certainly we must hold it as of faith that no one can be saved outside of the apostolic
Roman Church, that this is the only ark of salvation, that the one who does not enter this
is going to perish in the deluge. But nevertheless we must likewise hold it as certain that
those who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if that ignorance be invincible, will
never be charged with any guilt on this account before the eyes of the Lord.34

Here is a good explanation:

“…No one invincibly ignorant of the true religion would be charged with guilt “on this
account”, that is, on account of their ignorance itself. But this did not mean they could be
saved if they remained in such ignorance of the Gospel right up until death. As we have
already noted, patristic and medieval tradition held that such persons would be damned
because of other unrepented sins; for all those who did repent of grave sins weighing on
their own conscience, and who persevered in seeking after truth and righteousness, would
never in fact be left in ignorance of the Gospel right until death”
***“Can an ‘implicit faith in Christ’ be sufficient for salvation?" by Fr. Brian Harrison, O.S. ***
catholicism.org/downloads/FrHarrison_Implicit-Faith.pdf

“Father Brian Harrison, O.S., M.A., S.T.D., is Professor Emeritus of Theology at the Pontifical Catholic University of Puerto Rico in Ponce, P.R. In 1997 he gained his doctorate in Systematic Theology, summa cum laude, from the Pontifical Athenæum of the Holy Cross in Rome. Father is a priest in good standing of the Diocese of Ponce”

I just mention this because if you follow the logic of your statement strictly, it would be better for us not to preach the Faith to people, because once they know it they are bound to believe it. That wouldn’t make sense however, because that would mean we are placing liabilities on people by preaching the Gospel to them. No, we are not placing liabilities on people, we are presenting them the ONLY faith that can save them from their sins and from hell.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

It depends on who you mean by they? It is more a matter of “He”.

Baptism spiritually marks a soul for Christ and radically reconfigures it to make it possible for the Trinity to take residence and start the sanctification/regenerative process. God knows who are His. These if being able to persevere in the faith are written in Jesus’ very heart.

“They” in the sense of the Church Militant - means all of “us” in The Church. And yes the records are recorded into the baptismal records and kept indefinitely.

Once a Catholic ALWAYS a Catholic. But those who are spiritually marked in Christ through baptism who find themselves in hell for lack of sanctification and missing their eternal objective end or purpose suffer the greatest loss and spiritual pain since these all knew that they had literally in hand (think of that apple in the garden Eve stretched her hand for) the apple of salvation but rather than eat it let if fall to earth as if it was corrupt and unworthy of consuming. God help these - they will be an eternal self-reproach and be among the most embittered and self loathing in hell.

James

James i was already told on another thrad tonight I was going to hell so i’m afraid your waisting your time and mine. I am a fornicator according to some brother in a marraige thread, so i gusee I’ll go to bed I feel like sh–. Nancy

 

[CentralFLJames]

Don’t worry about me. I am just fine. I am a New Creature in Christ Jesus. I have been redeemed from the curse of the law ( poverty, sickness, and spiritual death). I have been declared a saint, holy, priestly, kingly, blessed coming in and out by the most High God. I praise Him day and night. You see, I have been born again from above and have been seated in heavenly places.

Most of you try to reform the outward man or the outward life, which will not save you.

  Peace,    Golfjack

I am sorry GJ but someone has brainwashed you. Who declared you a saint - holy, priestly, kingly? You can not praise God in true Latria worship without Eucharist. Take the lesson of Cain and Able to heart. Prayer without being in a high state of sanctifying grace is not even in the same universe as the Holy Mass when it comes to True Worship in Spirit and Truth. In comparison, simple prayer without the unity of The Church and Eucharist is deficient. And if you have any grave sins (being unrepentant in leaving the one true faith is quite conspicuous) then prayer is simply NOT HEARD and is never presented to God. Your only possible means to remain in good standing with God after leaving the Catholic Church is Invincible Ignorance and perhaps a related condition of transient mental-duress or dysfunction. But even if Invincibly Ignorant The Divinely given Moral Conscience NEVER operates to drive one away from Truth - only pride and hubris can do that and these are vices not virtues and are incompatible with regeneration. Sorry to be so blunt.

I recommend you read that Orestes Brownson link another person put up - its quite sobering and pure reason formed around the true Church Teachings. Let me quote just a few select quotes:

*[Invincible Ignorance] excuses from sin, if you will, the omission to elicit the act, but it cannot supply the defect caused by the omission. Something more than to be excused from the sin of infidelity is necessary to salvation. *

The church grows, so to speak, out of the Incarnation, of which she is, as Moehler well says is his Symbolik, in some sort, the visible continuation on earth, and from which she is inseparable. **St. Paul calls the church “the body of Christ.” **She lives in Christ, and he in her; his life is her life, and individuals are joined to him and live his life by being joined to her and living his life in her. ** To be separated from her is to be separated from him, is to be separated from the incarnate Word himself, the one Mediator of God and men, and from our end, as well as the medium of its attainment. **

These other Christian “ecclesial communities” have a deficient faith and are not proper Churches even though there are some transient cases of sanctification ongoing in newly baptised and in those who keep themselves holy through cooperation with God’s grace. Thus SOME can be joined imperfectly to The Church by right of their baptism and God can overcome this deficiency - but in ALL cases joins them to The Catholic Church before they are judged and the elect found therein are crowned with the completion of their sanctification and enter into the Church Triumphant. How many manage to gain salvation we know not but in all cases we know that “few enter by the narrow gate”.

James

 

[po18guy]

Don’t worry about me. I am just fine. I am a New Creature in Christ Jesus. I have been redeemed from the curse of the law ( poverty, sickness, and spiritual death). I have been declared a saint, holy, priestly, kingly, blessed coming in and out by the most High God. I praise Him day and night. You see, I have been born again from above and have been seated in heavenly places.

Most of you try to reform the outward man or the outward life, which will not save you.

  Peace,    Golfjack

Perhaps you see only the outward manifestations of the inner change. The rest of what you say is exactly Catholic.

 

[CentralFLJames]

James i was already told on another thrad tonight I was going to hell so i’m afraid your waisting your time and mine. I am a fornicator according to some brother in a marraige thread, so i gusee I’ll go to bed I feel like sh–. Nancy

I would not think that was within your character to fornicate Nancy - I missed that discussion. And pardon me if I don’t consider it a waste of breath to try to salvage someones eternity. Eternity is a long time and the time is mine to waste since I will get all back on the back end.

Sleep well tonight - your angel is on guard. But you got to stop screwing with people’s minds if you want to get past the scary dreams and onto the new material.

James

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

I would not think that was within your character to fornicate Nancy - I missed that discussion. And pardon me if I don’t consider it a waste of breath to try to salvage someones eternity. Eternity is a long time and the time is mine to waste since I will get all back on the back end.

Sleep well tonight - your angel is on guard. But you got to stop screwing with people’s minds if you want to get past the scary dreams and onto the new material.

James

Wait i cannot go to bed yet Who’s minds am i screwing with? And I dont have any dreams anymore, I took care of that.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Wait i cannot go to bed yet Who’s minds am i screwing with? And I dont have any dreams anymore, I took care of that.

Dressing as a Catholic while partially disrobing to protest its teachings is as much in principal as a daydream of fornicating with the enemy as it is a solicitation to an incubus to “come hither” when at pillow. Careful you don’t add incestuousness to the list as well…

James

 

[golfjack]

James, It is because of the Blood that Jesus has shed for us that I have been made saintly in the eyes of God. In fact, there is no remission of sin without the Blood of the Lamb.

My friend, you are the one who is in error, and will have to account to God for telling people that they cannot be saved without the Catholic Church. :tsktsk::banghead:
Peace, Golfjack

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

James, It is because of the Blood that Jesus has shed for us that I have been made saintly in the eyes of God. In fact, there is no remission of sin without the Blood of the Lamb.

My friend, you are the one who is in error, and will have to account to God for telling people that they cannot be saved without the Catholic Church. :tsktsk::banghead:

   Peace,   Golfjack

I took care of it I am out of here Nancy

 

[CentralFLJames]

James, It is because of the Blood that Jesus has shed for us that I have been made saintly in the eyes of God. In fact, there is no remission of sin without the Blood of the Lamb.

My friend, you are the one who is in error, and will have to account to God for telling people that they cannot be saved without the Catholic Church. :tsktsk::banghead:

   Peace,   Golfjack

Well GJ - were you not as you say “covered” in the blood of Christ at the Catholic Church? Did you have to go down the street to nearest non-denominational “bible-church” to get that blood? How did you pick which denomination out of the 40,000+ choices had the right version of the feel-good “bloody” theology? Why is it that your kind of turncoat rejects the Catholic teaching of “no salvation outside The Church” but runs to embrace the anti-Catholic teaching of “no salvation for anyone except outside the Catholic Church”? Your position is irrational. At worse Catholics exceed the minimal requirements.

Examine the one single dogmatic truth about ALL Protestants - NONE of them hold anything sacrosanct EXCEPT being AGAINST the single Catholic Teaching. ALL, everyone of them, have all deviated from their original teachings. ALL, everyone of them, as time goes on operate to strip away EVERY vestige of Catholic teaching. That is pure marker of anti-Christ.

Wake up my friend you are being duped by men that believe less in Jesus and more in the certainty that they hate the Catholic Church and their “work” to divide it and take from it more so than they seek to gain salvation for themselves. How can you profess a faith in something that no single reformer (who BTW never agreed with a single one of his co-conspirators) would today if he could escape his eternal just wages to return even recognize a single Protestant teaching as anyting that came from his own loins? It is because perdition can never spawn a thing of virtue and takes its form and nature from a more debase character. Take heed.

Taking inspiration from Brownson let me also say:
EVERY heresiarch dupes himself before he dupes others, and holds the post of leader only because a greater dupe than his followers. Yet NO Protestant follows their founders original faith - all modify, innovate or move on. No man ever is or ever was strictly honest and sincere in the profession of a false doctrine, - for no false doctrine can ever, in the nature of things, be so evidenced as to exclude doubt; and he who professes to believe what he doubts professes what he knows he does not believe, and therefore professes what lie he knows is not true. A man may be honestly in doubt as to what is or is not the truth on certain points; but no man can honestly profess faith in a false doctrine, - for in a false doctrine no man can have faith. An ever changing, innovation and deprecating doctrine of faith can not be a true faith my friend. You have been deceived by a Proteus that ever changes face to conform to the Spirit of The Age - a zeitgeist masquerading as divine but under it all a demon who is spawning his eternal children from those who wander from the true faith.

The truth is ‘the Protestant vanguard, which announces that the main body is at hand, has advanced very far, and retains less of Christian principle than was retained by the old heathen world in the times of the Apostles.’

Get back to the safety of the Catholic Church or be devoured in an avalanche of self delusion.

James

 

[po18guy]

James, It is because of the Blood that Jesus has shed for us that I have been made saintly in the eyes of God. In fact, there is no remission of sin without the Blood of the Lamb.

But, Paul wrote that if Jesus was not risen from the dead, then our faith is in VAIN (1 Corinthians 15:17). Blood, yes - but His rising as well. One question: Do you still consider yourself a sinner, or are you now incapable of sin because of Christ’s blood?

My friend, you are the one who is in error, and will have to account to God for telling people that they cannot be saved without the Catholic Church.

If your current affiliation has any truth in it, it came from the bible. But, where did the “table of contents” of the bible come form? Who determined it?

Know also that If you are validly baptized Christian, you ARE a part of the universal, or “catholic” Church - that which was founded by Jesus. You are in an imperfect communion, but a communion nevertheless, with the universal Church.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Reopened, having culled some 70 posts from this thread for either being off topic or lacking in charity or both.

***Remain on topic and maintain the highest levels of charity or there will be citations and thread closure.

I suggest that everyone carefully review this link*** and insure that all future posts, anywhere on the forums comply.

Very sincerely,

 

[Michael_Francis]

Reopened, having culled some 70 posts from this thread for either being off topic or lacking in charity or both.

***Remain on topic and maintain the highest levels of charity or there will be citations and thread closure.

I suggest that everyone carefully review this link*** and insure that all future posts, anywhere on the forums comply.

Very sincerely,