Outspoken opponent of the gay agenda wins presidential election in Poland

[Rau]

And if they do, so be it…IMHO. I’m certainly not afraid of my kids having teachers who are gay and who speak of their SO’s

My point was not so much that, as to refute the idea that a teacher would not speak of a same sex partner. If the teacher felt free to do so - I imagine she would. Which of course creates the problem in a catholic (and various Christian schools generally) where teachers are expected to model or live by the faith.

 

[meltzerboy2]

It’s difficult for erstwhile oppressed groups to display empathy toward those who have oppressed them in the past. And the victories won by the gay community are recent ones that can just as easily be taken away from them by the stroke of a congressional or executive pen if they do not remain vigilant. So think of it this way. At the same time, the self-perception of being a victim is not, in the long run, constructive, and one must eventually extend the olive branch toward those who were one’s adversaries.

 

[TC3033]

Which of course creates the problem in a catholic (and various Christian schools generally) where teachers are expected to model or live by the faith.

Maybe…I worked in a Catholic school and never had to sign anything as laid out above… I guess no teacher should speak of their home life then…

 

[Thorolfr]

The fact that gays can now be civilly married, aren’t driven out of neighborhoods, being beat or killed, protected against workplace discrimination, and have a whole month of public celebrations of their lifestyle etc shows a general tolerance in society even though most still view it as sinful.

Do most people in the US still view homosexual behavior as sinful? According to a USA Today article from 2013:

A November survey from Nashville-based LifeWay Research found 37 percent of Americans polled said “yes” when asked if homosexual behavior is a sin. Forty-five percent said it was not. Seventeen percent didn’t know.

That’s a major change from LifeWay’s September 2011 survey, when 44 percent said homosexuality was a sin, 43 percent said it wasn’t and 13 percent didn’t know.

Survey: Big drop in those who say being gay's a sin

That was seven years ago, so the percentage who think it’s sinful is probably even lower now. And according to a Pew Research Center report from 2015:

Amid a changing religious landscape that has seen a declining percentage of Americans who identify as Christian, a majority of U.S. Christians (54%) now say that homosexuality should be accepted, rather than discouraged, by society…

Regardless of age, seven-in-ten Catholics – whose church teaches that homosexual behavior is “intrinsically disordered” – say that homosexuality should be accepted by society, a 12-percentage-point increase since 2007. Similar jumps have occurred among mainline Protestants (from 56% to 66%), Orthodox Christians (from 48% to 62%) and members of the historically black Protestant tradition (from 39% to 51%).

More U.S. Christians OK with homosexuality | Pew Research Center

 

[Freddy]

Let’s not mince words. Only insane people would say this to their child.

What if you had taught your child that sinners go to hell and that homosexual behaviour is evil and a sin that will send you there. Plenty of people in this thread hold that view. Some may well have passed that view onto their children. Then one day…

‘Dad, Michelle has just told me she’s gay. Is she evil and is she going to burn in hell?’

Or even much, much worse…

‘Michelle, my parents told me about homosexuals so you are evil and will burn in hell’.

Bullying can be bad enough without arming kids with such thoughts. If there is a gay ‘agenda’ then it’s to prevent that.

And what’s with all this talk about Marxism recently? I can’t read a thread about health, homosexuality, evolution and many others without someone bringing it up. Karl was pretty keen on organising the means of production but I think he’d be as bemused as I am to see his name associated with so many topics. He might suggest that Trotsky would be slightly more applicable (but not much).

Pushing for changes with which I don’t agree? Marxist!

 

[Elizabeth3]

I don’t put much stock in opinion polls which are often skewed to get a certain outcome. However, if that is correct that even more makes my point to meltzerboy in response to his point that unacceptance is leading to a high suicide rate among gays and that it’s time for more tolerance of Christian/Religious belief.

 

[Thorolfr]

What if you had taught your child that sinners go to hell and that homosexual behaviour is evil and a sin that will send you there. Plenty of people in this thread hold that view. Some may well have passed that view onto their children. Then one day…

‘Dad, Michelle has just told me she’s gay. Is she evil and is she going to burn in hell?’

Or even much, much worse…

‘Michelle, my parents told me about homosexuals so you are evil and will burn in hell’.

Or even worse than that…

“Michelle, my parents told me that homosexuals are evil and will burn in hell. I think I’m gay and am sure that my parents would hate me if they found out. I’ve been feeling suicidal.”

 

[Thorolfr]

I don’t put much stock in opinion polls which are often skewed to get a certain outcome. However, if that is correct that even more makes my point to meltzerboy in response to his point that unacceptance is leading to a high suicide rate among gays and that it’s time for more tolerance of Christian/Religious belief.

You can’t expect a fairly recent change in attitudes towards homosexuality and gay people to have much of an impact on suicide rates for gay people yet. It will take a while for that to happen. And that recent change also doesn’t undo all the harm caused by years of self hate from the decades before that when public attitudes were still much more negative.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

What if you had taught your child that sinners go to hell and that homosexual behaviour is evil and a sin that will send you there. Plenty of people in this thread hold that view. Some may well have passed that view onto their children. Then one day…

‘Dad, Michelle has just told me she’s gay. Is she evil and is she going to burn in hell?’

Or even much, much worse…

‘Michelle, my parents told me about homosexuals so you are evil and will burn in hell’.

Or even worse than that…

“Michelle, my parents told me that homosexuals are evil and will burn in hell. I think I’m gay and am sure that my parents would hate me if they found out. I’ve been feeling suicidal.”

A tragedy just waiting to happen:

‘Nearly one quarter (24%) of 12 to 14-year-olds who die by suicide are LGBT’. New study sheds light on LGBT youth suicides - Australian Men's Health Forum

You have been brought up being told it’s a mortal sin. You are in a position where you are terrified you might be gay. You can’t confess it to anyone. And worst of all, you can’t change the way you feel. And at that age you are being flooded with hormones. Sex is something you are trying to come to terms with in normal circumstances. But you can only think of sex in relation to people of your own gender.

Twenty four percent. One in four. Any suicide is a tragedy. A child commiting suicide is beyond words. That it’s avoidable is simply heart-breaking.

 

[ATraveller]

Narrowly re-elected, Poland’s president staunchly defends Catholic family values.

Just like last time.
2015: Duda 51.55% Komorowski 48.45%
2020: Duda 51.03% Trzaskowski 48.98%
In fact, I looked back to after the fall of communism and the margins were always narrow except for one where there was a landslide victory after the fall of communism.

 

[meltzerboy2]

I am not sure what the numbers concerning gay teenage suicides are in relation to parents who are religious (devout Catholics, Evangelical Protestants, Orthodox Jewish, devout Muslims), but I would wager the rate is higher than that of teenagers who come from less religious families. When you are gay and you perceive your parents as hostile to who you are so that you live in terror they might find out, that must be a living hell of self-loathing.

 

[ATraveller]

‘Nearly one quarter (24%) of 12 to 14-year-olds who die by suicide are LGBT’. New study sheds light on LGBT youth suicides - Australian Men's Health Forum

The theories underpinning statistics would render that claim to be unreliable. Why? If you read the details:

24% of 12-14 year olds suicides (12 suicides)

That means 12 out of 25 suicides. A sample size of 25.
In fact, digging further shows why making a claim based on n=25 is bad.

• 9% of 21-24 year olds suicides are LGBT (around 60 suicides)
• 8% of 25-29 year olds suicides are LGBT (more than 70 suicides)

Here, the samples are over 500, therefore less variability. That’s why for these age brackets the rates are close. And remember it is usually said about 10% of the general population is LGBT. So a closer look at the data used in that study suggests LGBT people are not significantly more likely to commit suicide than heterosexuals.

Moral of the story: always examine the data behind claims

 

[meltzerboy2]

Not time for more tolerance. Time for more love.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

‘Nearly one quarter (24%) of 12 to 14-year-olds who die by suicide are LGBT’. New study sheds light on LGBT youth suicides - Australian Men's Health Forum

The theories underpinning statistics would render that claim to be unreliable. Why? If you read the details:

24% of 12-14 year olds suicides (12 suicides)

That means 12 out of 25 suicides. A sample size of 25.
In fact, digging further shows why making a claim based on n=25 is bad.

• 9% of 21-24 year olds suicides are LGBT (around 60 suicides)
• 8% of 25-29 year olds suicides are LGBT (more than 70 suicides)

Here, the samples are over 500, therefore less variability. That’s why for these age brackets the rates are close. And remember it is usually said about 10% of the general population is LGBT. So a closer look at the data used in that study suggests LGBT people are not significantly more likely to commit suicide than heterosexuals.

Moral of the story: always examine the data behind claims

Fair enough. The figures show that you can still tell children that homosexuality will send you to hell.

 

[ATraveller]

Fair enough. The figures show that you can still tell children that homosexuality will send you to hell.

If that’s your interpretation of them, then that’s your interpretation. Don’t attempt to put words in my mouth.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

Fair enough. The figures show that you can still tell children that homosexuality will send you to hell.

If that’s your interpretation of them, then that’s your interpretation. Don’t attempt to put words in my mouth.

My apologies for doing that. But here are some more facts and figures we can all take on board:

The Suicide Prevention Resource Center synthesized these studies and estimated that between 5 and 10% of LGBT youth, depending on age and sex groups, have attempted suicide, a rate 1.5-3 times higher than heterosexual youth.

A U.S. government study, titled Report of the Secretary’s Task Force on Youth Suicide, published in 1989, found that LGBT youth are four times more likely to attempt suicide than other young people.

“More than 34,000 people die by suicide each year,” making it “the third leading cause of death among 15 to 24 year olds with lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth attempting suicide up to four times more than their heterosexual peers.”

“LGBT students are three times as likely as non-LGBT students to say that they do not feel safe at school (22% vs. 7%) and 90% of LGBT students (vs. 62% of non-LGBT teens) have been harassed or assaulted during the past year”.

According to a study in Taiwan, 1 in 5 or 20% of Taiwanese gay people have attempted suicide. Suicide among LGBT youth - Wikipedia

All from wiki, but there are links on the page for each figure.

 

[Rau]

I guess no teacher should speak of their home life then…

That’s seems tongue in cheek. Perhaps no catholic school teacher should present as normal aspects of their life (if any) that are contrary to the moral tenets of the catholic faith?

 

[Rau]

seven-in-ten Catholics – whose church teaches that homosexual behavior is “intrinsically disordered” – say that homosexuality should be accepted by society

I think society does accept it. It’s not illegal nor is it an acceptable reason to exclude those persons from most things. Whether the sexual acts are morally good is not the same question.

 

[Rau]

Dad, Michelle has just told me she’s gay. Is she evil and is she going to burn in hell?’

Don’t confuse objective sin with the personal sinfulness of any individual. The latter is not something we can know and not something that should be the subject of discussion (in a family or elsewhere).

 

[ATraveller]

The Suicide Prevention Resource Center synthesized these studies and estimated that between 5 and 10% of LGBT youth, depending on age and sex groups, have attempted suicide, a rate 1.5-3 times higher than heterosexual youth.

I skimmed the references. The dates of the studies were early 2000 or earlier.

A U.S. government study, titled Report of the Secretary’s Task Force on Youth Suicide, published in 1989, found that LGBT youth are four times more likely to attempt suicide than other young people.

Why would the timing be important? Your first link noted in the past data collected didn’t consider sexual orientation to the extent as they do today therefore providing less precision in analyses.

According to a study in Taiwan, 1 in 5 or 20% of Taiwanese gay people have attempted suicide.

Bringing Taiwan in is fascinating because it provides us a different culture for comparison. The vast majority of Taiwanese people don’t follow an Abrahamic religion (under 6% are Christian, no significant Jewish or Muslim population). The majority are Eastern religions. I don’t know about Folk Religion but Buddhism doesn’t teach there’s a hell because they believe in reincarnation. So it would appear there could be something else at play as to why LGBT youths are more likely to consider suicide vs. heterosexual youths.