S
Sister_Amy
Guest
I’ll state this explicitly since so many of you seem to have missed it.
Israel broke the cease-fire.
Israel broke the cease-fire.
- Status
N
Neil_Anthony
Guest
No… I want them to stop fighting and accept an international solution to the problem.
It’s frustrating because their actions force us to take Israel’s side. We can’t take the side of terrorists. If there is negotiated peace, then the international communicty can try to get a fair deal for both sides. But if they keep with their attacks, we have no choice but to support Israel defending itself.
What about Czechoslovakia?
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Nobody is forcing you to take Israel’s side. That’s silly.
Secondly, Hamas is a democratically elected government. And they are trying to work for peace. Who was refusing a ceasefire? Israel was refusing a cease-fire, not Hamas.
There hasn’t been a fair deal for both sides since Truman decided to recognize the state of Israel, since then the Palestinians have gotten the short end.
Israel is not defending itself from attacks. Hamas is resisting a violent invasion, a siege, and a blockade. Hamas is trying to defend the people of Gaza against Israeli brutality. Hamas is trying to defend their right to exist, their very right to live!
There was a poster at the rally for Gaza in Washington DC this past weekend. It said
330:1
ISN’T SELF-DEFENSE
IT’S A MASSACRE!
N
Neil_Anthony
Guest
Well, good luck with your war then. shrug there’s not much people of good will can do with that besides agree that Israel can defend itself.
R
ricko
Guest
Everyone on this forum was watching on the news the Hamas rockets falling on Israel before Israel fought back. Your other myth that Hamas is willing to recognize Israel is proven wrong by the Hamas Charter:
“Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.” (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
“There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.”
Hamas makes it very clear they will not recognize Israel’s right to exist so we must conclude that you don’t know the facts or you hate the Jews so much you will lie.
T
tomarin
Guest
That’s totally out of bounds. She’s never said anything even remotely hateful about Jews. You need to retract that.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Israel invaded Gaza. That isn’t self-defense, not in anyone’s book. (Except maybe Cheney and Rumsfeld, thank God that’s over.)
Israel also broke the cease-fire.
If Israel were under siege, blockaded and occupied, perhaps it might be able to say it is defending itself. But it’s not.
Did you realize too that Israel was using Palestinians as human shields?
muslimmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/human-shield-gaza.jpg
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Yes, that first statement was the popular myth on the news. Myth, I say. It has been proven wrong. CNN Confirms Israel Broke Ceasefire First.
As to this bit about the Hamas Charter, you act like it was something recent. Hamas has been willing to broker a ceasefire with Israel, just like they did in June. That is de-facto recognition, and Hamas has also admitted its willingness to recognize Israel. But the propaganda machine keeps pumping this charter as if it’s the only statement Hamas has ever issued, that it’s recent, and that it’s rock-solid. It’s not, so it’s wrong to treat it that way.
This is absolutely absurd and uncalled for. Hamas is fighting to ensure the rights of Palestinians who in Gaza have been dying a slow death thanks to the Israeli blockade. Children have lost the will to live, the sick are prevented from reaching hospitals, sometimes dying in ambulances at checkpoints. Unemployment has sky-rocketed, along with malnutrition, while there is less and less electricity and fresh water to go around.
I have never once said I hated Jews, and I am not lying. I can back up everything I’ve said. Moreover, my arguments have nothing against Jews, because I know, as you perhaps do not, many Jews who hate the violence against Gaza as much as I do. They mourn the deaths of innocent civilians as do I. They want peace as much as I do.
R
ricko
Guest
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
War of Choice: How Israel Manufactured the Gaza Escalation
"*If Israel’s goal were simply to end rocket attacks on its civilians, it would have solidified and extended the ceasefire, which was working well, until November. Even after November, it could have addressed Hamas’ longstanding ceasefire proposals for a complete end to rocket-fire on Israel, in exchange for Israel lifting its crippling 18-month siege on Gaza.
Instead, the actual targets of its assault on Gaza after December 27, which included police stations, mosques, universities, and Hamas government institutions, clearly reveal that Israel’s primary goals go far beyond providing immediate security for its citizens. Israeli spokespersons repeatedly claim that Israel’s assault isn’t about seeking to effect regime change with Hamas, but rather about creating a “new security reality” in Gaza. But that “new reality” requires Israel to use massive violence to degrade the political and military capacity of Hamas, to a point where it agrees to a ceasefire with conditions more congenial to Israel. Short of a complete reoccupation of Gaza, no amount of violence will erase Hamas from the scene.*"
"*If Israel’s goal were simply to end rocket attacks on its civilians, it would have solidified and extended the ceasefire, which was working well, until November. Even after November, it could have addressed Hamas’ longstanding ceasefire proposals for a complete end to rocket-fire on Israel, in exchange for Israel lifting its crippling 18-month siege on Gaza.
Instead, the actual targets of its assault on Gaza after December 27, which included police stations, mosques, universities, and Hamas government institutions, clearly reveal that Israel’s primary goals go far beyond providing immediate security for its citizens. Israeli spokespersons repeatedly claim that Israel’s assault isn’t about seeking to effect regime change with Hamas, but rather about creating a “new security reality” in Gaza. But that “new reality” requires Israel to use massive violence to degrade the political and military capacity of Hamas, to a point where it agrees to a ceasefire with conditions more congenial to Israel. Short of a complete reoccupation of Gaza, no amount of violence will erase Hamas from the scene.*"
J
jakasaki
Guest
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
What’s kind of ironic is that I’ll be leaving in a few minutes to go to a meeting of an interfaith group comprised of Muslims Christians and Jews. That I receive emails almost daily from members of another interfaith group–mostly emails from the Catholic and Jewish members, who are all praying for a swift and peaceful end to the crisis.
D
dzheremi
Guest
I don’t know any Catholic who is not praying for that, Amy, so I’m not sure how ironic it actually is. We pray for peace and mean it.
I think the difference that you see here is that some people have bought into the ideologies of either side, so that it’s all those dirty Jews/Muslims fault, and if they would just hurry up and die off en masse, there would instantly be peace throughout the world forever and ever. More insidiously, there is also a minority among Western Christians that is perhaps not a small enough minority in the USA (given its Protestant background) that believes in a certain interpretation of the Bible that makes everything that goes on in Israel/Palestine into something like the parts of a scavenger hunt: When X happens, Jesus will return, so we should look at X happening through that lens, not worrying about the humanitarian toll (those dead kids’ parents probably voted for Hamas, anyway, so to hell with them). I personally don’t subscribe to that view, but I have seen a few posts around here that ask questions or present situations that presuppose the truth of that outlook (presumably because it’s “Biblical”). It’s strange to me, but what do I know.
I think the difference that you see here is that some people have bought into the ideologies of either side, so that it’s all those dirty Jews/Muslims fault, and if they would just hurry up and die off en masse, there would instantly be peace throughout the world forever and ever. More insidiously, there is also a minority among Western Christians that is perhaps not a small enough minority in the USA (given its Protestant background) that believes in a certain interpretation of the Bible that makes everything that goes on in Israel/Palestine into something like the parts of a scavenger hunt: When X happens, Jesus will return, so we should look at X happening through that lens, not worrying about the humanitarian toll (those dead kids’ parents probably voted for Hamas, anyway, so to hell with them). I personally don’t subscribe to that view, but I have seen a few posts around here that ask questions or present situations that presuppose the truth of that outlook (presumably because it’s “Biblical”). It’s strange to me, but what do I know.
T
tomarin
Guest
The inescapable fact here for me is that there is clearly no moral equivalency between Israel and Hamas. Hamas launched rockets first (after months of violating the ceasefire) and aimed them at civilian targets in Israel, including children on their way home from school. Hamas uses their own citizens, including women and children as human shields in order to maximize civilian deaths when Israel strikes at them. (When I asked an Israeli friend if the civilians are willing partners in this, he said they are so terrified of Hamas that they don’t dare resist.) If I’m wrong about any of this, I’m happy to be corrected.
We should pray for peace but also have no illusions about its prospect if one side has so little concern for human life.
R
ricko
Guest
Fact: First of all, contrary to Khalidi, three quarters of the Palestinians killed so far were combatants, not civilians, including 290 Hamas combatants who have been specifically identified.
Beyond this, real world examples obviate any charges about right or wrong based on the number of people killed. Consider that the Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor killed about 3,000 Americans. Does it follow that the US should have ended its counterattacks against Japanese forces once a similar number of Japanese had been killed? Since it did not end its attacks, does that mean the US acted disproportionally and was in the wrong and that the Japanese were the aggrieved party? Clearly the answer is no.
Taking this further, counting the number of dead hardly determines right and wrong. For example, again looking at the Pacific Theatre in World War 2, over 2.7 million Japanese were killed, including 580,000 civilians, as against only 106,000 Americans, the vast majority combatants. Does it then follow that Japan was in the right and America was in the wrong? Again, clearly the answer is no. Just having more dead on your side does not make you right.
Beyond this, real world examples obviate any charges about right or wrong based on the number of people killed. Consider that the Japanese attack at Pearl Harbor killed about 3,000 Americans. Does it follow that the US should have ended its counterattacks against Japanese forces once a similar number of Japanese had been killed? Since it did not end its attacks, does that mean the US acted disproportionally and was in the wrong and that the Japanese were the aggrieved party? Clearly the answer is no.
Taking this further, counting the number of dead hardly determines right and wrong. For example, again looking at the Pacific Theatre in World War 2, over 2.7 million Japanese were killed, including 580,000 civilians, as against only 106,000 Americans, the vast majority combatants. Does it then follow that Japan was in the right and America was in the wrong? Again, clearly the answer is no. Just having more dead on your side does not make you right.
M
Muslim_Woman
Guest
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Salaam/peace
Salaam/peace
yes , what’s going on in Palestine is one sided cruelty , barbaric killing . The most shocking part to me is so many people believe Israel has a right to kill even innocent babies . It’s not a sin at all & Israel does not deserve any punishment .
F
ferdie
Guest
Any one in this forum? Who?
R
ricko
Guest
Only in her mind. All Christians are sad at the loss of innocent lives but Hamas keeps making military targets of civilians by firing their rockets from homes, schools, hospitals. Israel has the right to defend itself and the civilian deaths fall squarely on the shoulders of Hamas. Funny, but both of the Muslim women have complained about Israel cutting off the border crossings but neither one has said one word about Egypt keeping its borders closed with Gaza. Of course Egypt is Muslim so they would never complain about other Muslims.
S
Sister_Amy
Guest
Okay, here it goes:
Hosni Mubarak (who, if you don’t know, is the 99.9% elected president of Egypt–nobody can win that much of a vote, btw, unless it’s rigged) is a disgrace. A complete and utter disgrace, a puppet dangling on strings of financial aid–strings held by the US government, and possibly the Israeli government indirectly. Their border closings are totally absurd, as they are assisting in the gradual strangulation of an entire people.
It is not a matter of Egypt or Egyptians choosing to close their borders, it is a matter of their president. As George Galloway so eloquently put it, he is dragging the name of Egypt through the mud. And he is no better than the Israeli military shooting at women and children.
Now, the other point being made was that nobody’s allowed to kill babies, but if Israel kills babies it’s Hamas’s fault. There is absolutely no logic in that statement, none whatsoever. You can’t say it’s bad and then justify it, not in the same breath, that’s a complete and total contradiction.
And I’ll repeat what I said before:
ISRAEL BROKE THE CEASE-FIRE!!!
Also, it is not possible to “aim” rockets. You can point them but you have practically no control over where they land. (As someone who has spent a little to much time playing with rockets, you can take me word on that if you like.)
During the cease-fire Hamas stopped launching rockets. Then Israel decided to invade Gaza and take out some Palestinians–that broke the cease-fire. Hamas responded to Israel’s attack by resuming its rocket attacks. Israel started it.
Therefore, Israel is not defending itself at all–it is not a victim (at the international level), it is the aggressor. It is the bully.
(And I wish Hamas would stop shooting rockets too, yet haven’t they got a right to defend themselves against an on-going invasion and siege?)
I’m rather sick of the double-talk which says that Israel has rights but Palestine doesn’t.
- Status