Panetta to lift ban on women in combat

[LisaA]

That was my comment.

I serve in the US military too.

I serve in a Civil Engineering unit. We get deployed far more then most units.

Our PT standards are not the same as the men. If we are so equal…why do we have different PT standards?

If we aren’t expected to perform to the same standards as men…why are we paid the same?
So few women join the military…and of those…so few are ever going to meet the same standards as a man in an infantry unit in terms of weight, strength, stamina, speed, desire and mental fortitude.
Why are we making such a huge deal about allowing women to enter infantry units when this particular woman is so rare.

Plus…changing the dynamics of an infantry unit and adding a female is nothing but a negative.
Everything has to change within that unit and the focus of the mission is changed. These infantry units sometimes work in the most remote areas of the world and worry about survival of you and your buddy next to you.
Now we need to change these outposts to fit women…including separate tents, facilities and so on.

Is this going to carry over to special forces units?
Do we expect females to make it through SEAL, Ranger, PJ, Recon, Night Stalker, Delta, Combat Com and Green Beret training?
Are we going to change the training to suit females, as PT standards were done, when we begin to realize that females can’t make it through these intense courses?

If a female makes it through training for Green Beret…what will her job be? How can she go behind enemy lines to train and infiltrate the enemy when we are involved in Afghanistan and a culture that treats woman differently then men. Will she go behind enemy lines by growing a beard and dressing as a man as the other Green Berets do or is going to wear a burka?

Kelfa your posts are so filled with knowledge and experience. Thank you for sharing this and bringing some facts to the discussion. Sadly you will find that there are those for whom facts do not matter. It is the self absorbed “all about ME” attitude that seems pervasive in certain circles.

I have heard the proposed end of the ban on females in combat positions reported numerous times. NONE of the speakers including Secretary Panetta give a reason to end this ban other than “our female troops have expressed the desire to have this opportunity” It is not that our military will improve, that we will be better able to defend our country, but that GI Jane wants what she wants when she wants it…

Very sad that our country’s defense is a pawn in a social experiment. That being said, the claim is that the standards will NOT be watered down (I don’t believe them frankly) So I guess we can hope some semblence of rational thought will survive.

And thank you for your service and that of your husband and the sacrifices made by your entire family.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

What about women civilians who are caught in the cross-fire? How should they be treated?

Squirrel! Squirrel!

 

[Sarcelle]

Squirrel! Squirrel!

What are you talking about?

I’ve lived overseas and I’ve heard horror stories about non-combatants who get caught in the cross-fire. It is possible for women to get tortured and raped and killed in a war zone and they don’t have to be soldiers to do it. Have you heard about what is going in Rwanda or in Darfur for that matter?

 

[tortilla5]

Re: the lower standards, I just don’t get the logic behind it. If you want to do the same job you should pass the same test. Right? or am I crazy?

 

[Wolseley]

LOL! I’m sorry… but that was pretty funny.

You don’t have to be sorry—it was meant to be funny.

I keep seeing stark evidence that Obama wants to emasculate our military in every way possible. From the refusal to call the Ft Hood Shooter an Islamic terrorist to forcing chaplains to marry homosexuals and having openly homosexual troops to this latest counter productive move. It seems to be a well orchestrated plan with these stark changes simply sprung upon the unsuspecting public and the poor troops who have to adapt to his bizarre idea of what a military is supposed to do…you know kill bad guys and blow things up.

I agree. But this is what you get when you have a Commander in Chief (I use the term very looseley in connotation with Comrade Chairman) who never served in the military and doesn’t have the foggiest idea of what the military is all about.

I mean, how much can anybody really know about the military who uses the term “corpse-man” twice in one speech???

Praise God no signs of PTSD or depression as of yet. But PTSD didn’t manifest itself in my Dad until late in life, long after retirement.

Keep an eye on it. My PTSD didn’t manifest itself in a big way until I’d been out of the miltary for 25 years. It had been there all along, of course, and looking back, I can see now how certain things made it pretty obvious (anger, paranoia, problems with authority, etc.), but it wasn’t until I stopped working in 2010 that it really went to town. I started hitting the deck at loud noises, had shaking and crying and sweating fits, couldn’t sleep, spent hours in the middle of the night wrestling with thoughts of sucide----and finally ended up at the VA. The shrinks told me that it’s not at all uncommon for PTSD to manifest itself 20, 30, even 40 years after the event.

And that would be the good side. Haven’t people read about what the Viet Cong did during the Vietname War. They skinned captured men at night time so that American combat troops could hear their screams.

The Japanese in WWII were even worse; there are recorded cases of them burning out the eyes of American captives with lit cigarettes; of cutting their penis and testicles off and stuffing them in the captive’s mouth; of disembowling the captives and the officers of the Japanese unit eating their livers after having them prepared by the unit cook.

I shudder to imagine what such an enemy might do to a female captive. Cut off her breasts? Scar her face? Insert things into her private regions? These things do not bear thinking about, and yet we must think about them if we actually intend to put women into situations where they might end up getting captured and exposed to such things.

So … only men should suffer the emotional scars of combat? Women are to fragile? Using those arguments I could make an argument to deny women the right to vote, drive a car etc.

Yeah, I remember when my wife had to go into the voting booth last November and pull the lever. Scarred her for life. And my sister got her first driver’s license and a year later she was an alcoholic with authority issues and a tattoo on her left bicep that said “Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.”

Give me a break. You actually compare combat to voting and driving a car and you expect to be taken seriously???

 

[Mark121359]

Kelfa your posts are so filled with knowledge and experience. Thank you for sharing this and bringing some facts to the discussion. Sadly you will find that there are those for whom facts do not matter. It is the self absorbed “all about ME” attitude that seems pervasive in certain circles.

I have heard the proposed end of the ban on females in combat positions reported numerous times. NONE of the speakers including Secretary Panetta give a reason to end this ban other than “our female troops have expressed the desire to have this opportunity” It is not that our military will improve, that we will be better able to defend our country, but that GI Jane wants what she wants when she wants it…

Very sad that our country’s defense is a pawn in a social experiment. That being said, the claim is that the standards will NOT be watered down (I don’t believe them frankly) So I guess we can hope some semblence of rational thought will survive.

And thank you for your service and that of your husband and the sacrifices made by your entire family.

Lisa

I believe both of you, Lisa and Kelfa have brought a great deal to ponder about with regards to this discussion! Thanks to both of you!

Peace, Mark

 

[Kelfa28]

Kelfa your posts are so filled with knowledge and experience. Thank you for sharing this and bringing some facts to the discussion. Sadly you will find that there are those for whom facts do not matter. It is the self absorbed “all about ME” attitude that seems pervasive in certain circles.

I have heard the proposed end of the ban on females in combat positions reported numerous times. NONE of the speakers including Secretary Panetta give a reason to end this ban other than “our female troops have expressed the desire to have this opportunity” It is not that our military will improve, that we will be better able to defend our country, but that GI Jane wants what she wants when she wants it…

Very sad that our country’s defense is a pawn in a social experiment. That being said, the claim is that the standards will NOT be watered down (I don’t believe them frankly) So I guess we can hope some semblence of rational thought will survive.

And thank you for your service and that of your husband and the sacrifices made by your entire family.

Lisa

Thank-you.

It is a disgrace that this word “equality” means so much more then common sense will dictate.
This social experiment will destroy the greatest military on the planet.
First there was “don’t ask, don’t tell” and now this.

I think the marines have recently opened up their officer training course to include females but they haven’t changed the standards.
Their officer course is just…unrelenting. It’s absolutely brutal and it’s run by sergeants in order to instill in these potential officers that they are being trusted with the lives of the enlisted.

I think one or two women have tried it but haven’t come close to passing it.

I’ve always had this idea in my head that as a woman, I could do anything a man could do. This was before i came into the Church.
I was a paramedic and tried to go into firefighting but couldn’t.
Then I joined the military and picked a male heavy unit.

This view I had changed somewhat when I became a Catholic and then I did a total 180 when I got married and became a mom.

I can’t imagine leaving my baby and my husband to go play war. I don’t know why we, as a nation, could allow this…allowing moms to deploy while my BIL and male cousins sit at home watching football and saying they “support the troops.”

All in the name of “equality” I suppose.

 

[Brendan]

Coming from an Armor background, I think this is a REALLY BAD idea.

Our PT requirements were not as severe as Infantry, we pretty much ride just about everywhere. But you do have to hoist dozens of 40lbs main gun cartridges, and some heavy prybar work on the mechanics.

The biggest issue with integrating women is the close quarters. Using ‘the facilities’ inside a tank is not a private affair. And a lot of the time, leaving the tank is just not an option.

You could technically have an all female crew, but how does that work when the CO needs to reassign crew. Do we then have all female Troops, Battalions?

And even then, there are ‘logisitics’ about having to relieve oneself while in a tank that I just don’t think are even possible for a female to do effectively.

 

[Sarcelle]

You don’t have to imagine what they would do to a female captive. You can look up what they did to the Chinese women in the rape of Nanking. Both POWs and civilians were fair game to the Japanese. Their brutality was so much that the visiting Nazi advisers were horrified.

You can also google “comfort women”.

 

[LisaA]

What are you talking about?

I’ve lived overseas and I’ve heard horror stories about non-combatants who get caught in the cross-fire. It is possible for women to get tortured and raped and killed in a war zone and they don’t have to be soldiers to do it. Have you heard about what is going in Rwanda or in Darfur for that matter?

The “Squirrel!” reference is to one who tries to distract with irrelevant stuff that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Sorry not taking the bait

Lisa

 

[Sarcelle]

The “Squirrel!” reference is to one who tries to distract with irrelevant stuff that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Sorry not taking the bait

Lisa

oh, okay. At first I thought you were calling civilians squirrels.

Sorry I strayed off topic.

Now back on topic. Now that the ban has been lifted how many women will actually sign up?

 

[TimeEntrance]

What are you talking about?

I’ve lived overseas and I’ve heard horror stories about non-combatants who get caught in the cross-fire. It is possible for women to get tortured and raped and killed in a war zone and they don’t have to be soldiers to do it. Have you heard about what is going in Rwanda or in Darfur for that matter?

Which is the unfortunate thing that a lot of non-combatants fall victim to psychos in war sometimes. Maybe I’m wrong but I get the impression this is especially the case in civil wars inside a country or region, like the conflicts not so long ago in the Balkans.

One woman I can imagine humping a pack like a Navy SEAL is Serena Williams.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Sarcelle]

Which is the unfortunate thing that a lot of non-combatants fall victim to psychos in war sometimes. Maybe I’m wrong but I get the impression this is especially the case in civil wars inside a country or region, like the conflicts not so long ago in the Balkans.

One woman I can imagine humping a pack like a Navy SEAL is Serena Williams.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll80/kboonkie23/Serena-Williams.jpg

Even with the ban lifted I doubt many women will sign up. It’s still not a good idea though as unit cohesiveness which is crucial in battle will be adversely affected by the presence of a few women.

When I was in the Air Force Reserves as a civil engineer, women were not allowed to fly fighter planes and serve aboard the aircraft carriers. Now they do. It was no surprise to me when the combat ban was lifted.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

Even with the ban lifted I doubt many women will sign up. It’s still not a good idea though as unit cohesiveness which is crucial in battle will be adversely affected by the presence of a few women.

When I was in the Air Force Reserves as a civil engineer, women were not allowed to fly fighter planes and serve aboard the aircraft carriers. Now they do. It was no surprise to me when the combat ban was lifted.

Women in aviation based combat arms MOSs is completely different than women in ground based combat arms MOSs. Different working conditions, different living conditions, different non-combat physical requirements, different combat physical requirements, different social interactions, and different cultures. I have no issue with women being in aviation based combat arms MOSs because being a female won’t have any real impact on their ability to do their job and because the integration of females into combat arms aviation units won’t create the issues that would arise with the integration of females into combat arms ground units.

 

[lizaanne]

men who have fought in wars have seen the worst that life has to offer. pain, torture, fear, mass murder, loss of friends, desperation, guilt over having killed others, etc., etc., ad infinitum.

and what has been their reward once the wars have ended?

women.

joy, laughter, frivolity (i mean that in the most positive way), softness, femininity, and all of the other wonderful qualities that make women so great.

in the past, a man who came home from war could enjoy his wife’s softness and all of these other qualities.

the left wants to change all that. it wants to make women just as hard as men. in the future, both memebrs of a marriage will return from war with all of the scars that war entails.

it will be horrific and sad.

bottom line is, God made women and men very, very different. the left thinks God got it very, very wrong.

~Liza

 

[SamH]

Which is the unfortunate thing that a lot of non-combatants fall victim to psychos in war sometimes. Maybe I’m wrong but I get the impression this is especially the case in civil wars inside a country or region, like the conflicts not so long ago in the Balkans.

One woman I can imagine humping a pack like a Navy SEAL is Serena Williams.

Maybe carry a pack for a while, but I doubt she could make it past the first couple weeks of Seal training. The program tears up the bodies of the most impressive physical specimens, lack of sleep and food are a basic part of the training.

 

[Wolseley]

You don’t have to imagine what they would do to a female captive. You can look up what they did to the Chinese women in the rape of Nanking. Both POWs and civilians were fair game to the Japanese. Their brutality was so much that the visiting Nazi advisers were horrified.

You can also google “comfort women”.

I’m well aware of the rape of Nanking and the comfort women (most of whom were Korean).

But those were civilian women, not enemy combatants. The civilian American, Australian, and European women rounded up by the Japanese after China and the Philippines fell were placed in confinement camps, and not abused as the Chinese (and other Asian and Pacific) women were. It wasn’t a posh resort by any means, but they were pretty much unmolested.

Had there been female combatants fighting against them, I’m not sure what the outcome might have been; but considering the contempt for surrender which the Samurai code of Bushido called for, if there had been female combat personnel, they may have been treated just as badly as the men.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

I’m well aware of the rape of Nanking and the comfort women (most of whom were Korean).

But those were civilian women, not enemy combatants. The civilian American, Australian, and European women rounded up by the Japanese after China and the Philippines fell were placed in confinement camps, and not abused as the Chinese (and other Asian and Pacific) women were. It wasn’t a posh resort by any means, but they were pretty much unmolested.

Had there been female combatants fighting against them, I’m not sure what the outcome might have been; but considering the contempt for surrender which the Samurai code of Bushido called for, if there had been female combat personnel, they may have been treated just as badly as the men.

Worse given the Japanese cultural norms of that time concerning women.

 

[Wolseley]

It reminds me of a segment John Stossel did for 20/20 many years ago about women becoming firefighters. In it, they had film of women trying to do some of the labor that comes with the job wearing the heavy gear firemen wear and failing at it. One woman was trying to position a rather large ladder that she couldn’t handle. The ladder was too much for her and she struggled tremendously and if I remember correctly, the ladder started falling to the ground pulling her with it. And then afterwards, NOW got real, real upset at ABC for airing this segment and demanded Stossel to be reprimanded . If I’m not mistaken they wanted him fired! The thing is, my father who was a Baltimore City Firefighter confirmed much of what Stossel was showing.

Yep. After eight years in the military and twenty-two in law enforcement, I’ve seen this as well. You have female officers who have a petite build and weigh maybe 85 pounds soaking wet. They’re competant enough, sincere, devoted to duty, and usually handy with a firearm so long as the caliber isn’t too large----but there is no way on God’s green earth they can tackle a 250-pound perp with a hate on and hopped to the eyeballs on PCP. They just can’t. I’m sorry, but they can’t. Nothing against those women, but there are physical realities involved here.

Most of the departments I worked for would usually team them up with a partner who could actually handle the tougher jobs more or less on his own, and he would allow the female officer to “help”, so to speak; if an ugly perp needed to be chased down and cuffed, he would do the chasing and tackling, and she would move in and do the cuffing.

Here’s a picture from a police-goods catalog that sort of shows what I mean. There she is, all 90 pounds of her, looking determined and serious as she “helps” to restrain the suspect…but look at the guy with her. He’s got the grip on the suspect and he’s the one hauling out the cuffs, and he’s big enough to handle the guy pretty much all on his own.

Again, nothing against them, but there are numerous situations in law enforcement (just as there are in the military) where the majority of women simply don’t have the physical makeup to perform at the level of a male. I’m sorry, but there it is.

.

 

[Wolseley]

Worse given the Japanese cultural norms of that time concerning women.

You’re probably right.