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Crescentinus
Guest
All the more for me to support the Bishonen Cardinal.
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mburn16
Guest
Thatās pretty mild as far as reform goes. It could, potentially, go a long way in solving the Priest shortage, and could substantially increase support for the authority of the church on family matters.
I wouldnāt be opposed to such a change.
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_Abyssinia
Guest
I do not think priestly celibacy is the big reason for shortage in priests because in certain countries and/or areas there are few training to be priests and in other areas/countries seminaries are full. If celibacy was the main reason for priest shortage there would be a consistent low level of training priests worldwide
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tafan
Guest
Do you mind if I ask you a question? If the Church was to allow for married priests, how much more would you increase your donations to your local parish? I am by no means saying this is primarily a financial issue, I realize the finances of it all should be way down on the reasons of why the church would maintain the celibacy discipline. Nevertheless, that does come into play. A priest is who actually brought it up to me. Catholics give enough to their parishes to keep them going, not much else. Salaries paid to a priests are very low, certainly too low to support any type of family obligation. Housing supplied to priests, typically a parish rectory, is almost never sufficient for a family.
And we should not forget that when married priests did exist in the Catholic Church, simony was a common problem. The Gregorian Reforms of the 11th century were specifically targeted at dealing with simony. So perhaps, this aspect of the problem (ie financial support of a priestās family) needs to be carefully addressed by the Church before such a change was made: do that we do not repeat other historical mistakes.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
Abyssinia, there is a glut of priests in Africa, and the Church has looked away regularly about their having wives. (Thatās what Iāve been told by American priests, anyway.)
(Iām ducking; no one throw anything at me.
)
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mburn16
Guest
Tafan -
While not a wholly invalid concern, I think you need to remember a couple of things:
While not a wholly invalid concern, I think you need to remember a couple of things:
- In the West (where the problem of supporting the Priest would be most apparent), its entirely likely that their spouse will have a secular profession. If Priests are being paid enough to get by, its entirely likely that their spouse could add substantially.
- If the faithful understand that the Priest also has a family to support, in part, I find it quite likely donations would increase.
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smaneck
Guest
Those countries which still have an adequate number of priests are places like India where the culture as a whole still favors celibacy.
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smaneck
Guest
As Iām sure you are aware, there are churches in communion with Rome where priests are allowed to marry, such as the Maronites of Lebanon.Abyssinia, there is a glut of priests in Africa, and the Church has looked away regularly about their having wives. (Thatās what Iāve been told by American priests, anyway.)
(Iām ducking; no one throw anything at me.
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Elizabeth502
Guest
R
ringil
Guest
I just chuckle when I read āI want an orthodox Pope.ā
You know that the Pope is Orthodoxy itself.
You know that the Pope is Orthodoxy itself.
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ringil
Guest
I wouldnāt oppose any change made by a Pope because they are. . . . . . the Pope.
Thatās how it works.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Indeed.
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_Abyssinia
Guest
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Santi2
Guest
The problem we have with dissident groups has already started in that country. Proof of that is the enactment of anti-family legislation which was sponsored/supported by Catholics, in a predominantly Catholic country. That being the case, have those obdurate Catholic politicians been reprimanded? Worth noting that dissent in this country isnāt exclusive to Catholic politicians/laity.
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tafan
Guest
As to your first point, you seem to be saying that it would be fine for the wife to be the primary bread winner of a priestās family. Since priestsā salaries are not even close enough. I find this problematic. If we are to have married priests, then we must determine to support their families, regardless of a particular wifeās occupation.
On your second point, I am very skeptical. I have been involved in parish finances a long time, and I know people tend to get in a rut (so to speak) as to what they give the parish. The amount becomes rather habitual and doesnāt change that often for individuals. So I am skeptical that individuals would look at a newly arrived priestās family situation and compare it with the previous, and decide to give more. Certainly now, there is no change in support based on an additional priest being assigned to a parish (which would seem very analogous). Furthermore, a priest would be loathe to get in front of the congregation and say, to the effect,: " my predecessor was single, I have a family of 6, you need to give more now."
My point is that without addressing this issue in advance, the church opens itself up to some obvious problems (ie public criticisms of families living in poverty, potential need for priests to moonlight, simony and other fraud, etc). It is a bad idea to have the guy who is in complete control of the parish find himself in dire financial straights, especially with regards to the support of a wife and children.
Well, this is complete thread drift, and as I said earlier not the main consideration as to the rule of celibacy. But since financial corruption was one of the reasons absolute celibacy was insisted upon by Gregory VII, perhaps we should learn from history.
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smaneck
Guest
Presumably not everyone in that country is a Catholic. Should Catholics be able to dictate such things to non-believers. Should Catholic politicians who believe they should not be reprimanded by the church because they refuse to impose their beliefs on those who donāt share them?
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Elizabeth502
Guest
I donāt find it āproblematicā except in an absolute sense. That is, it would not work in every case. I definitely agree with you that a parish that has any desire to keep a married priest as pastor, or even assistant, had better pony up, as the price to pay for that: IOW, supplement. However, it is unrealistic for any of us to assume that anything close to 100% of parishes would be able to subsidize the priestly stipend to a substantial, livable degree (eliminating any need for the spouse to work even part-time), regardless of how much they wanted to.
Thus, I think it would need to be on a case-by-case basis. It would be disastrous to introduce the possibility into any financially troubled parish (which are many!). Perhaps we need to watch how this is going to work, is working, in the parishes accepting married Anglican priests, before it is tried on any kind of a broader basis later.
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LisaA
Guest
You mistake ābeliefsā with moral imperatives. I would not impose my BELIEF in the Real Presence. I would not even impose my BELIEF in the Trinity.
OTOH from a human rights perspective, I would like to impose my understanding that murdering innocent human beings is wrong and should be prohibited by law. This is not a matter of belief although certainly itās part of our Churchās doctrine (and that of many other faiths and even people of no faith).
As to issues of same sex marriage and such other societal experiments, by demanding that this structure be treated as the equivalent of traditional male/female marriage, these same folks are imposing their decidedly unbiological or theological philosophy on those who do not share it.
Lisa
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Joe_5859
Guest
Indeed. Do we imagine the pope might be heterodox? If so, then I have a couple documents from Vatican I to show youā¦ 
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