Papal Mass in DC (was it me or was the music crazy?)

[30miller]

I’m sorry…are you suggesting that clown masses led to the sexual abuse crisis?

No. They are two separately arrived at and obviously unacceptable results of the “two type paradigm” that my previous post refers to (i.e. his “mute true believers” and his “self-indulgent others”). (Though, now that I am thinking about it - I wouldn’t want my kids anywhere around those clowns, for sure). (And the list goes on, as well - the “sisters of perpetual indulgence” homosexual takeover of the Mass in San Francisco - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrDbgjLKoxU ;- my cousin having to get fingerprinted in the diocese of Arlington to volunteer in his parish - which is somehow going to correct the failure of the Bishops in the abuse crisis , etc. etc. etc. No, there are simply not two types of Catholics as presented by the Washington Post reader a couple of posts ago.

 

[frommi]

No, there are simply not two types of Catholics as presented by the Washington Post reader a couple of posts ago.

I think he was making the point that there are two types of Catholics who whine about music.

 

[Michael_Neal]

There is truth to the notion that we should embrace the crosses we receive in our lives and endure them without complaint. Some of the music used in Masses these days may be such a cross for some, especially in the sense of stress and displeasure it causes.

But at the same time we must realize that we can’t afford to remain silent anymore on Church issues if we don’t want the liturgy, traditions, and morals of the Church to disappear. The Pope is the person who is most responsible for dealing with this but he can’t stop to kick every barking dog. Nor can he possibly deal with every problem, because the problems are too widespread.

However, for certain there needs to be more charity from people on both sides of this argument. And I will certainly include myself in that.

 

[30miller]

I think he was making the point that there are two types of Catholics who whine about music.

“mute true believers” and “self-indulgent others” - these are the two types of “Catholics who whine about music” (to use your chosen way to define us). And the great OZ has apparently spoken and we are not supposed to question this? Are you serious? From my perspective - these do NOT begin to identify the many thoughtful and knowledgeable posters I have read on this thread.

 

[frommi]

“mute true believers” and “self-indulgent others” - these are the two types of “Catholics who whine about music” (to use your chosen way to define us). And the great OZ has apparently spoken and we are not supposed to question this? Are you serious? From my perspective - these do NOT begin to identify the many thoughtful and knowledgeable posters I have read on this thread.

I didn’t say we shouldn’t discuss it…I was just clarifying what the writer was saying…at least from my point of view.

 

[aloysiusg]

Getting slightly back on topic, here is the list of music sung both before and during the mass, with composers where I could find them…(All -means all choirs sang it, PMC - Papal Mass CHoir, ICC - Intercultural Choir, GC - Gospel Choir, ChC - Children’s Choir, Inst - Instrumental)

Plenty Good Room (All)-------------------------------Snedecor
Send Forth Your Spirit (ChC)
Come, O Spirit of God (ICC) ---------------------------Manolo
Gloria Fanfare (Inst) …LeBlanc
Sing Aloud Unto God our Strength (PMC) ------------Nelson
Let’Isikia (ICC)
Trio on Gloria (Inst)
Lord Make Me An Instrument (GC)
Go Up To The Altar Of God (All) --------------------Chepponis
Ave Verum Corpus (ChC and PMC) -------------------------------Mozart
Yo Danzo Como David (ICC)
Passacaglia on Bonae Voluntatis (Inst)…LeBlanc
Holy Spirit (GC)
Source d’eau Vive (ICC)
Spirit of God (PMC) ---------------------------------------LeBlanc
Veni Creator Spiritus (ICC)
Humoresque on the SOng of the ANgels (Inst)…LeBlanc

Arrival of the Pope
Entrata Festiva (Inst)
Tu Es Petrus (ALL)
Concertato On Grosser Gott
Holy God, We Praise Thy Name (All)
Laudate Dominum/Uyai Mose (ICC)
O Spirit All-Embracing (All)--------------------------Holst/Proulx
Ave Maria (PMC)-----------------------------------------Dett
We Are One In The Spirit (ALL, Denyce Graves)…Foster
O Holy Spirit By Whose Breath (All)----------------Latona
Kyrie (All) ------------------------------------------------Roberts
Gloria – Mass of the Angels (All) ---------------------Proulx
Lord, Send Out Your Spirit (All) ----------------------Peloquin
Easter Gospel Acclamation (All) ----------------------Luckner
Trilingual Intercessions (All) --------------------------Hay
Let All the World in every Corner Sing (PMC) -------Argento
Ven Espiritu Sancto (ICC)
Sanctus - Mass of Creation (All) ----------------------Haugen
Memorial Acclamation – Mass of Creation (All) —Haugen
Fraction Rite (All) ---------------------------------------Honoré
The Lord’s Prayer
Ubi Caritas (Chant) - (All)
Psalm 100 – All the Earth (All) -----------------------Deiss/Proulx
Jesus Is Here Right Now (GC) ------------------------ Roberts
Ubi Caritas (All) ---------------------------------------- Hurd
Bienaventurados (ICC)
Pange Lingua (All) -------------------------------------Manolo
My God and My All (All but PMC, I think)-----------------------------Zaragoza
Panis Angelicus (Placido Domingo solo)
Lord, You Give the Great Commision (All)…Nestor
Love’s Redeeming Work Is Done (All) -------------Ogden

whew! OK, I would ask that those that have issues with the music, please, as gently as possible, tell me which songs disturbed you the most - I just need the names, I don’t need extrapolations on the pain you felt - I understand it was severe. I am going to do my best to try and validate the selections by your standards based on what I can drum up (no pun intended).

Al

 

[aloysiusg]

Also, here is a summary of much of the music that was used, in a fairly purely informative setting - might prove useful - should’ve posted it about 30 pages ago

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802093.htm

 

[benedictgal]

First of all, there were rumblings, as early as October 2005, that the Holy Father wanted to make some much-needed changes at the Office of Liturgy for the Supreme Pontiff. According to this article from the online magazine Chiesa, Sandro Magister notes:

Marini has been the director of the papal masses since 1987. Very often, thanks to the fact that these are broadcast on television, they are seen by hundreds of millions of people all over the world, and are thus raised to the level of a universal model.

***And it is thanks in large part to Marini that the masses of John Paul II took on their characteristic form. It is a form that is less Roman and more international. Gregorian chant and polyphony have been mostly removed, and their place in the papal rites has been given frequently to music, texts, and dances taken from Latin America, Africa, and Asia.

But in addition to being international, John Paul II’s liturgies were typical television fare. Marini himself theorized – in a July 19, 2003 interview with “La Civiltà Cattolica” – that “the direction of the liturgy is obliged to harmonize itself with television direction.” ***

The systematic use of television for the papal masses will remain with Benedict XVI.

But it can be foreseen, on the other hand, that the “direction of the liturgy” will not be the same. ***As a cardinal, Joseph Ratzinger never kept secret his criticisms of some aspects of Marini’s preferred approach.

And even with his inaugural mass Benedict XVI has made it clear that he wants to accomplish a “reform of the reform” in this area, with increased fidelity to the great tradition of the Church.***

So it is foreseeable that Marini will also leave the stage, and will be replaced by a pontifical master of ceremonies more in agreement with the current pope.

Now, unfortunately, what happened at DC was a tad too reminiscent of what used to occur at Masses celebrated by Pope John Paul II during his countless Apostolic voyages. What should have been a truly sacred occasion was marred by inappropriate multi-cultural mish-mash that served to only glorify cultural diversity rather than offer fitting adoration to God.

Interestingly enough, while the Holy Father remind silent on the type of music used for the DC Mass (aside from the obligatory sentiments of gratitude to all the parties involved), he certainly was not silent when he celebrated Mass in the Viennese Cathedral. In fact, he said:

"***It was a particularly beautiful experience this morning to celebrate the Lord’s Day with all of you in such a dignified and solemn manner, in the magnificent cathedral of Saint Stephen. The celebration of the Eucharist, carried out with due dignity, helps us to realize the immense grandeur of God’s gift to us in the Holy Mass, and fills us with deep joy. It is precisely in this way that we draw near to each other as well, and experience the joy of God. So I thank all those who, by their active contribution to the preparation of the liturgy or by their recollected participation in the sacred mysteries, created an atmosphere in which we truly felt God’s presence. ***

Furthermore, when he later called on a group of monks (also in Vienna), the Holy Father added:

“In the beauty of the liturgy, …] wherever we join in singing, praising, exalting and worshipping God, a little bit of heaven will become present on earth. Truly it would not be presumptuous to say that, in a liturgy completely centred on God, we can see, in its rituals and chant, an image of eternity. …] ***In all our efforts on behalf of the liturgy, the determining factor must always be our looking to God. We stand before God – he speaks to us and we speak to him. Whenever in our thinking we are only concerned about making the liturgy attractive, interesting and beautiful, the battle is already lost. Either it is Opus Dei, with God as its specific subject, or it is not. In the light of this, I ask you to celebrate the sacred liturgy with your gaze fixed on God within the communion of saints, the living Church of every time and place, so that it will truly be an expression of the sublime beauty of the God who has called men and women to be his friends.” ***

This last statement made by the Holy Father and quoted in Chiesa, is, I believe, the crux of this whole debate:

Benedict XVI also told the monks of Heiligenkreutz: “A liturgy which no longer looks to God is already in its death throes.”

I managed to get up before the chickens (yes, my neighborhood does have such creatures) to watch the live broadcast of the Papal Mass from Vienna. What happened in DC was a mere shadow to the beauty of what transpired in Vienna.

 

[brotherhrolf]

How many people of my parent’s generation quit going to Mass to avoid the sacro-pop? If I hadn’t found a reverent NO parish with traditional music, where would I be now? We focus on how much sacro-pop attracts people and we ignore how much it repels others. It’s not personal choice and it is not snobbery. If you like the happy clappy a’grinnin’ and a’strummin music fine. But at least have the decency to recognize that my position is equally fine.

I voted with my feet 40 years ago and only just now feel easy enough to vent my frustrations. And I am told by young people and by converts that I shouldn’t have such feelings. Quite frankly, I am sick of being ignored. I grew up before Vatican II. I’m not dead yet and not only do I sing traditional music, I ENJOY it. And I’m tired of being told that I am insensitive, a drooling neandertal, that I am incapble of appreciating the Eucharist while banal, insipid, pedestrian and mundane music which I could hear at my local mall is presented as the sine qua non of Catholic music.

The contrast between the Vesper service and the Mass in DC was stark. It was obvious to a whole bunch of folks - all over the world. I sang when JPII came to New Orleans in '87. With all of the musical idioms available to us, we did not use brass bands, ragtime piano, jazz quartets, Cajun fiddlers, Mardi Gras Indians or second line liturgical dancers. What I heard at Washington I could hear at JazzFest this weekend. If we Louisianans can restrain ourselves with our deep heritage of various musical styles, I would assume that the Archdiocese of Washington could do the same.

I don’t hear jazz, ragtime, or Cajun music at my church. I know of one church in New Orleans that plays jazz and it was taken over by non-parishoners after Katrina. Keep dance hall music in the dance hall.

I am proud of our Catholic musical heritage. I make no bones about it. But to suggest that it is simply personal preference on my part is to ignore all those folks who came before. I grew up with that heritage and I want to pass it on to my sons which is getting increasingly harder given the “I’m OK; you’re OK - lets concentrate on the Eucharist folks” - most of whom would not recognize “Bring Flowers of the Fairest” if it jumped out at them. No, we old fogeys don’t know banal music when we hear it. We certainly didn’t hear it when we were kids.

 

[MonFrere]

Thank you for clarifying. Which songs were you objecting to, just for my fy? A lot of the stuff we sing I just can’t stand. But I offer it up. For example “The Song of the Body of Christ” and “One Bread One Body.” Very respectful and very orthodox, but pul EEZE!

(ALERT: to Mr. Miller and Benedictgal – something that might help you see I’m not a lost cause.) — until the end…

The problem I have with “The Song of the Body of Christ” is that the melody is so banal that it’s not worthy of any lyric no matter how orthodox. I avoid playing this hymn because it just goes against all my musical sensibilities. Simplicity is really difficult artistically. Immaculate Mary is a great example of a hymn that has melodic simplicity, yet can carry the weight of a beautiful lyric. A good accompanist can take the lyric and devise an appropriate accompanyment for the laity that is artistic and prayerful without any hint of “entertainment”.

Because of this selection and many like it is why I have a problem with OCP and her sisters. They really need pastoral oversight. That’s not saying there are not selections that are perfectly fine. However, it’s been stated many times that the quality of the organist and the manner of their accompanyment to the liturgy and hymns has much to do with a Mass that centers on prayer - or entertainment - or just plain endurance. I would rather recite the Mass that have an amateur hobble through. Being a musician I really appreciate our morning Masses where there’s no music – it helps me focus and pray more easily. When I have to play for the weekend Mass(es) I appreciate that “holy silence” during the week. Less is more.

So, my main issue in regards to the D.C. Mass is that I do not see the issue with the multicultural selection. I know conservative people in the political arena have issues with multiculturism. However, the Catholic Church, being a universal church, has no reason not to embrace the ethnicity of all races and cultures. From my read from ALL THE FACTS – both in writing and in what I observe from the Vatican in their constant unchanging position on papal liturgies in foreign lands – I honestly don’t see anything that would make me think they don’t approve of a multicultural expression at a Mass. If they did, I’d see a different approach at Papal Masses. The U.S. has always celebrated diversity; we proudly call ourselves a “melting pot”. In recent years even moreso. Having done so I feel that it is justified for the Church in America to take a moment in a Mass to highlight before the Pope that aspect of American life. With this in mind AND inclusive of Benedictgal’s quote by JP II I honestly don’t see any conflict or contradiction. I see JP II simply giving some guidelines to proper approach to multiculturism. There’s no rebuke or derision given it as a possibility; just honest pastoral concern. I don’t say this as some liberal radical trying to force the Church into some politically correct posture; I don’t see it as a social experiment taking place at Mass, I see it as being part of the self-image the Church has of herself in the 21st century. And I see this as having the support if not the leadership of the Vatican.

MonFrere

 

[brotherhrolf]

MonFrere: See my post above. Mais cher what I wrote is the truth. Do you have any idea of how many jazz artists the Archdiocese of New Orleans could have called upon who are Catholic? (Al Hirt, Pete Fountain, Wynton Marsalsis (actually any of the Marsalis family, they were part of my parish), Harry Connick Sr. and Harry Connick Jr). Pete Fountain might have played Just a Closer Walk with Thee on the clarinet but he didn’t. So why the Hispanic dance music? There are Cuban and Mexican composers of motets they could have drawn on. And if you want to focus on the multi-cultural issue why weren’t we Cajuns included?

And don’t get me started on the Haitians. They were here in New Orleans 200 years ago - refugees from Touissant L’Overture. Zulus? Swahili was a far more common language in Africa.

 

[benedictgal]

No, I don’t think you’re completely lost. While you make some very solid statements regarding OCP, you just need a good liturgical GPS as far as the DC Mass is concerned.

Interestingly enough, while doing some research, I came across the Instrumentum Laboris, the Lineamata (working document) that the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist used. You will be interested to know that they found several problems with the current state of liturgical music:

Various responses to the Lineamenta recommend that singing at Mass and Eucharistic Adoration be done in a dignified manner. The faithful need to know the standard Gregorian chants, which have been composed to meet the needs of people of all times and places, in virtue of their simplicity, refinement and agility in form and rhythm. As a result, the songs and hymns presently in use need to be reconsidered.87 To enter into sacred or religious usage, instrumental or vocal music is to have a sense of prayer, dignity and beauty. This requires an integrity of form, expressing true artistry, corresponding to the various rites and capable of adaptation to the legitimate demands of inculturation. This is to be done without detracting from the idea of universality. Gregorian chant fulfills these needs and can therefore serve as a model, according to Pope John Paul II.88 Musicians and poets should be encouraged to compose new hymns, according to liturgical standards, which contain authentic catechetical teaching on the paschal mystery, Sunday and the Eucharist.

1. Some responses particularly mentioned the use of musical instruments, referring to the general guidelines contained in the Constitution Sacrosanctum concilium.89 In this regard, a certain appreciation was often voiced in the Latin tradition for the organ, whose majestic sound adds solemnity to worship and is conducive to contemplation. Some responses also made reference to experiences associated with the use of other musical instruments in the liturgy. Positive results in this area were achieved with the consensus of competent ecclesiastical authority, who judged these instruments proper for sacred use, in keeping with the dignity of the place and the edification of the faithful.

In other responses some lamented the poor quality of translations of liturgical texts and many musical texts in current languages, maintaining that they lacked beauty and were sometimes theologically unclear, thereby contributing to a weakening of Church teaching and to a misunderstanding of prayer. A few responses made particular mention of music and singing at Youth Masses. In this regard, it is important to avoid musical forms which, because of their profane use, are not conducive to prayer. Some responses note a certain eagerness in composing new songs, to the point of almost yielding to a consumer mentality, showing little concern for the quality of the music and text, and easily overlooking the artistic patrimony which has been theologically and musically effective in the Church’s liturgy.

Even though there is a note regarding musical instruments, clearly, if its association is too profane, then, as the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy has noted (and, in what I quoted some pages ago), it should not be used.

I would also refer you to the entire text of the article regarding the Mass celebrated at St. Stephen’s Cathedral in Vienna. The Holy Father made some remarks that you will find most interesting.

chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/166922?eng=y

Evidently, the Viennese got the message; DC did not.

 

[30miller]

MonFrere: See my post above. Mais cher what I wrote is the truth. Do you have any idea of how many jazz artists the Archdiocese of New Orleans could have called upon who are Catholic? (Al Hirt, Pete Fountain, Wynton Marsalsis (actually any of the Marsalis family, they were part of my parish), Harry Connick Sr. and Harry Connick Jr). Pete Fountain might have played Just a Closer Walk with Thee on the clarinet but he didn’t. So why the Hispanic dance music? There are Cuban and Mexican composers of motets they could have drawn on. And if you want to focus on the multi-cultural issue why weren’t we Cajuns included?

And don’t get me started on the Haitians. They were here in New Orleans 200 years ago - refugees from Touissant L’Overture. Zulus? Swahili was a far more common language in Africa.

Both this one and your last post are indeed the truth. Thank you. And, in case you missed it, Harry Connick Jr. did sing in the pre-concert to the Yankee Stadium Mass.
And since they didn’t bother to ask me either - I would add Johnny Cash’s “He turned the water into wine” and Andy Griffith doing Wayfaring Stranger as well. Great non-liturgical spiritual music that I have on my Ipod. We should be multicultural enough to accept the sons of North Carolina and Arkansas as well.

 

[ronsimeone]

I was not impressed with the music in DC; however, given the lack of confidence I have in Archbishop Wuerl, I was not shocked.
I have visited a number of parishes in the Archdiocese and many of the Masses are more Broadway productions than a religious service. I have written the Archbishop’s office and asking when he will celebrate a Latin Mass… still waiting for a reply…

 

[brotherhrolf]

Benedictgal, mais cher. Here is Brother Hrolf in an area which has this huge diverse mulit-cultural expression of music. JazzFest starts this weekend - a weeks long celebration of multi-culturalism and food and our heritage. I could go down to JazzFest and hear gospel, klezmer music, rhythmn and blues, ragtime, Dixieland, rock, Jimmy Buffet,

I’ll just give you the link to the main website.
nola.com/

I am extremely disappointed that you have been harangued by folks who have never been exposed to ethnic diversitity and are not at all familiar with the dictates of HMC. Take a look at the musical offerings of JazzFest. So many cultures. So many musical idioms. Yet when JPII came to New Orleans the music was Traditional Catholic. Whoah! You mean there were no ragtime rhythms, Dixieland jazz, jazz quartets, no Pete Fountain, no Al HIirt, no Harry Connick? No. Traditional Catholic music.

So, what went on in Washington? Bro has a real problem with the Haitians since they came here in the 1790s. Where are the Cajuns? Where are the Irish? Are we not immigrants too?

 

[30miller]

(ALERT: to Mr. Miller and Benedictgal – something that might help you see I’m not a lost cause.) — until the end…

The problem I have with “The Song of the Body of Christ” is that the melody is so banal that it’s not worthy of any lyric no matter how orthodox. I avoid playing this hymn because it just goes against all my musical sensibilities. Simplicity is really difficult artistically. Immaculate Mary is a great example of a hymn that has melodic simplicity, yet can carry the weight of a beautiful lyric. A good accompanist can take the lyric and devise an appropriate accompanyment for the laity that is artistic and prayerful without any hint of “entertainment”.

Because of this selection and many like it is why I have a problem with OCP and her sisters. They really need pastoral oversight. That’s not saying there are not selections that are perfectly fine. However, it’s been stated many times that the quality of the organist and the manner of their accompanyment to the liturgy and hymns has much to do with a Mass that centers on prayer - or entertainment - or just plain endurance. I would rather recite the Mass that have an amateur hobble through. Being a musician I really appreciate our morning Masses where there’s no music – it helps me focus and pray more easily. When I have to play for the weekend Mass(es) I appreciate that “holy silence” during the week. Less is more.

So, my main issue in regards to the D.C. Mass is that I do not see the issue with the multicultural selection. I know conservative people in the political arena have issues with multiculturism. However, the Catholic Church, being a universal church, has no reason not to embrace the ethnicity of all races and cultures. From my read from ALL THE FACTS – both in writing and in what I observe from the Vatican in their constant unchanging position on papal liturgies in foreign lands – I honestly don’t see anything that would make me think they don’t approve of a multicultural expression at a Mass. If they did, I’d see a different approach at Papal Masses. The U.S. has always celebrated diversity; we proudly call ourselves a “melting pot”. In recent years even moreso. Having done so I feel that it is justified for the Church in America to take a moment in a Mass to highlight before the Pope that aspect of American life. With this in mind AND inclusive of Benedictgal’s quote by JP II I honestly don’t see any conflict or contradiction. I see JP II simply giving some guidelines to proper approach to multiculturism. There’s no rebuke or derision given it as a possibility; just honest pastoral concern. I don’t say this as some liberal radical trying to force the Church into some politically correct posture; I don’t see it as a social experiment taking place at Mass, I see it as being part of the self-image the Church has of herself in the 21st century. And I see this as having the support if not the leadership of the Vatican.

MonFrere

I’ve got to say - I do see a ray of hope in your middle paragraph. But then you offer up such mishmash as: (1) to the first few sentences in your “problematic” paragraph I would probably answer “The Tower of Babel” if I was in the Cash Cab and they asked me what you were describing. That’s not good. (2) Then you continue with “… The U.S. has always celebrated diversity,”. Are you serious? I can only wish that you had been around when my ancestors arrived on America’s shores to signs that said “No Irish Need Apply” and a kick in the teeth - maybe you could have given them directions to the “celebration of diversity”. Then (3) you give us “…we proudly call ourselves a “melting pot”. In recent years even moreso. Having done so I feel that it is justified for the Church in America to take a moment in a Mass to highlight before the Pope that aspect of American life…” - speaking once again for my Irish ancestors (and I’ll let others speak the same for their ancestors as there are many such stories the same of many ethnicities) who as they got off the boat and were directed where to go to enlist directly in the Union Army - many to die in battle shortly thereafter and be forevermore forgotten - where exactly was the party, the prideful celebration of which you write? No. This is not reality - you’re writing about pie in the sky here.

 

[MonFrere]

Then (3) you give us “…we proudly call ourselves a “melting pot”. In recent years even moreso. Having done so I feel that it is justified for the Church in America to take a moment in a Mass to highlight before the Pope that aspect of American life…” - speaking once again for my Irish ancestors (and I’ll let others speak the same for their ancestors as there are many such stories the same of many ethnicities) who as they got off the boat and were directed where to go to enlist directly in the Union Army - many to die in battle shortly thereafter and be forevermore forgotten - where exactly was the party, the prideful celebration of which you write? No. This is not reality - you’re writing about pie in the sky here.

Your point is well taken. I was describing the ideal and our “better self”. The U.S. does struggle with race and ethnic differences; but our struggles do bear good fruit. And I certainly admit we’ve miles to go before we sleep.

MonFrere

 

[aloysiusg]

The U.S. does struggle with race and ethnic differences; but our struggles do bear good fruit. And I certainly admit we’ve miles to go before we sleep.

MonFrere

This thread is living proof of that MonFrere.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Your point is well taken. I was describing the ideal and our “better self”. The U.S. does struggle with race and ethnic differences; but our struggles do bear good fruit. And I certainly admit we’ve miles to go before we sleep.

MonFrere

And we Acadiennes were swept out of Canada and removed to Louisiana by thte British. My Irish ancestors were deposited on the levees of New Orleans sick. There is a grave of 6,000 Irish workers who died digging the Basin St. Canal in NO.,

Who hears our voice Mon Frere and aloysiusg?

 

[qui_est_ce]

I am so happy I did not unsubscribe from this thread. Today’s posts really enlightented me and I am greatful for the perseverance of all who participated.

Who OK’s the OCP - no one to speak of (or is spoken of, is probably a better way to put it). OCP and GIA have essentially hijacked and taken over liturgical music publishing business - and they seem to dictate to our Church, among other churches, the compilations that they will offer us. They have purchased many of the copywrites to material. They have many of the current “artists” contracted with them. We are not allowed to know how it is that their material finds it’s way into our parishes. They are not without their unknown and apparently well-placed “friends” inside our Church, as well. That’s the best answer I can give you.
(Aside - My best take on what is “behind” them is a “false ecumenism” which seems to believe that if they somehow get the same “ambiguous” kind of songs into Caholic, Episcopal, & other protestant churches - that the “kumbaya” effect will over after a number of years and result in one Christianity for all - the “feel-good” Christianity that so many of “them” seem to like. Unfortunately, that “feel-good” Christianity is false. They stand dumbstruck when you point out to them that Jesus actually mentioned Hell more times in the Bible than He did heaven).

OK, I finally understand what you’re getting at.

The clown “Masses” have been explained and proven to be nothing but rubbish. I wish I could find the posts from a few years back that took care of that silly claim.

I still don’t get what “clown masses” are. I avoided learning more about them, but they keep showing up. Can an Orthodox Catholic please explain what the heck is going on and who these people are?

Thank you Joysong. I personally can’t imagine the Church allowing for an anything goes approach. Many have seriously lost sight of the bigger picture of the Popes visit in my opinion.

Yes! That is what bothered me about the tone of the OP.

There is no requirement for a mammogram, a colonoscopy, - and the same goes for Imprimaturs and nihil obstats.
And “Published with ecclesiastical approbation” is not only meaningless to me - but it even makes me wonder if one of those “mail-away reverends” of some off the wall “religion” gave his or her “approbation” to it - you know, the kind that can legally marry people as far as the civil law goes. To have gone from imprimaturs and nihil obstats from some identifiable member of our Church to “Published with ecclesiastical approbation” from God (and the OCP) only knows who - that about says it all. Does OCP know who gave them this “ecclesiastical approbation”? Are they simply ashamed to say who it was - or what position they hold - and in what church? So, the rest of us are just like dogs chasing rabbits,

I finally get you! :doh2: Thanks for your perseverence.

JMTJ
Lest one suggest that Wuerl was some long forgotten secretary in the mind of the Holy Father by the time he ascended to the See of Peter, please note that Archbishop Wuerl’s appointment to Washington was one of Pope Benedict’s first appointments for the Church in the United States.

One would be foolish to suggest that Wuerl’s appointment to a major American see, or that the majority of the Pope’s pastoral visit occurred in the Archdiocese of Washington were coincidences. Both were affirmations of friendship born in the joint work of restoring the Body of Christ.

Archbishop Wuerl is a stickler for liturgical detail. He demands appropriate adherence to liturgical norms by his clergy, and his liturgies are pedagogical models in how liturgy should be celebrated. If there were anomalies at the papal liturgy in DC, they were not approved by Archbishop of Wuerl.

Thank you. I was very touched by Archbishop Wuerl’s insuppressible smiling in his welcome address to Pope Benedict XVI at Nationals Stadium.

The problem I have with “The Song of the Body of Christ” is that the melody is so banal that it’s not worthy of any lyric no matter how orthodox. I avoid playing this hymn because it just goes against all my musical sensibilities. Simplicity is really difficult artistically. Immaculate Mary is a great example of a hymn that has melodic simplicity, yet can carry the weight of a beautiful lyric. A good accompanist can take the lyric and devise an appropriate accompanyment for the laity that is artistic and prayerful without any hint of “entertainment”.

You said it better than I. It’s impossible to keep track of which verse you’re on, or if you’re on the refrain. It’s hypnotic.

Because of this selection and many like it is why I have a problem with OCP and her sisters. They really need pastoral oversight. That’s not saying there are not selections that are perfectly fine. However, it’s been stated many times that the quality of the organist and the manner of their accompanyment to the liturgy and hymns has much to do with a Mass that centers on prayer - or entertainment - or just plain endurance. I would rather recite the Mass that have an amateur hobble through. Being a musician I really appreciate our morning Masses where there’s no music – it helps me focus and pray more easily. When I have to play for the weekend Mass(es) I appreciate that “holy silence” during the week. Less is more.

My Brother, you put it very well. In our parish, the pastor wants a cantor at every Sunday mass, even 7:30. The 7:30 am Sunday mass crowd avoids my eyes when I cantor because they want to worship in silence. But I submit to the will of my pastor and do cantor occasionally for 7:30 Sunday mass.