Parallelism between Quran and previous scriptures

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I have left this forum for centuries and nothing much changes? OH puhleaze.
Alison, even in the event you said to be not similar, there are similarities:
  1. The coming of Gabriel.
  2. The story that Mary is a virgin.
  3. That Isa (Jesus) is sinless.
    Variation in stories told must exist. But the source will show similarity.
    Rodrigo Sir, please continue.
Neverland.
 
Logical Analysis of the “Bible is Corrupted” claim

As promised here is a redux on the logical analysis of r.gonzales’s claim that the Bible is corrupted. This claim was a pre-emptive strike against the parallelism debate which sought to determine from the reasons for the imperfect existence of this parallelism (here taken to mean narrative similarities between the Quran and any previous scripture or text).

Three reasons were given for imperfection in parallelism:
  1. The original Judeo-Christian scriptures have been corrupted (as Muslims like to claim).
  2. Muhammad imperfectly borrowed from the Judeo-Christian scriptures.
  3. The Quran was corrupted.
There is no other logical explanation.

The Muslim claim that the Judeo-Christian scriptures (“JC texts”)have been corrupted is an old one. A good reference can be found here: themodernreligion.com/comparative/christ/bible_tampered_qa.htm

Since the original documents are no longer extant, critical study of the JC texts must necessarily rely on textual analysis. Undoubtedly even the oldest existing manuscripts differ from each other and scholars have deduced many reasons for these differences. Without applying any depth in reasoning, Muslims immediately jump to the conclusion that these differences mean that the JC texts are corrupted. This is not necessarily so and the reasons are as follows:

A. Muslims relate the JC texts with the Quran in that they believe the Torah was revealed to Moses and the Bible to Jesus in a similar way as the revelation of the Quran to Muhammad. Thus, they assume it is self-evident that any textual differences in the JC text proves corruption.

This is of course a patent flaw in the Muslims’ thinking: the JC texts were not direct revelations to Moses and Jesus. This is widely acknowledged by the Jews and Christians, the ‘Word of God’ notwithstanding. The Jews believe the Torah is a narrative of the life and teachings of Moses and was not written by him. Further, it is clear Muslims don’t read the Bible. If they had, they would know that the New Testament is comprised of the four Gospels, Pauline Letters, an ancient history of the early Christians and an account of Christian prophecies. Nothing in the New Testament can be seen to be in any way a direct revelation of Jesus. In essence, the JC texts are more akin to the hadiths than the Quran. Thus, by insisting on a ‘word-perfect’ accuracy is a STRAW MAN argument.

B. Translational variation is not evidence of textual corruption

The original texts were not written in the English language but Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic. Some Muslims, in their haste to judge the textual accuracy of the JC texts, point to differences in the English translations of the Bible. This is erroneous reasoning as these ‘TRANSLATIONAL’ variations do not evidence corruption of the original text at all. One might just as easily refer to English translations of the Quran to infer the Quran’s corruption.

C. Transcriptional variation is also not evidence of textual corruption

Muslims also point out that various Judaic or Christian sects use slightly different texts. They thus pronounce evidence of corruption. This is also erroneous reasoning as these ‘TRANSCRIPTIONAL’ variations do not evidence corruption of the original text. These variations are analogous to the differences in the hadiths. It can be seen from the hadith collections that some narratives are repeated in multiple hadiths, each of which are not identical, and some of which even contain contradictory details.

The only logical methods to determine if a scripture has been corrupted are:

i) comparison with the original text.

ii) authoritative accounts referencing differences between the original and extant texts.

Unfortunately for the critic, the original JC texts are lost. Thus, method i) is no longer available. It is pure bad luck for the critic: one cannot convict for want of evidence.

Also, since Judaism and Christianity do not have authoritative accounts dating to the early days of those respective religions method ii) is also unlikely to exist.

Thus, it is likely that it will be impossible to prove the JC texts have been corrupted. Textual variation is acknowledged – they are plain to see. But as evidence of scriptural corruption, they are not.

Finally, EVEN IF textual corruption of the JC texts is proved, it still leaves the question whether this corruption extends to the parallelism. If the corruption does not extend to the parallelism, then it is irrelevant to this discussion. To think otherwise would constitute the logical fallacy of ‘COMPOSITION’, commonly known as hasty generalization.

The
 
Logical Analysis of the “Bible is Corrupted” claim

As promised here is a redux on the logical analysis of r.gonzales’s claim that the Bible is corrupted. This claim was a pre-emptive strike against the parallelism debate which sought to determine from the reasons for the imperfect existence of this parallelism (here taken to mean narrative similarities between the Quran and any previous scripture or text).

Three reasons were given for imperfection in parallelism:
  1. The original Judeo-Christian scriptures have been corrupted (as Muslims like to claim).
  2. Muhammad imperfectly borrowed from the Judeo-Christian scriptures.
  3. The Quran was corrupted.
There is no other logical explanation.

The Muslim claim that the Judeo-Christian scriptures (“JC texts”)have been corrupted is an old one. A good reference can be found here: themodernreligion.com/comparative/christ/bible_tampered_qa.htm

Since the original documents are no longer extant, critical study of the JC texts must necessarily rely on textual analysis. Undoubtedly even the oldest existing manuscripts differ from each other and scholars have deduced many reasons for these differences. Without applying any depth in reasoning, Muslims immediately jump to the conclusion that these differences mean that the JC texts are corrupted. This is not necessarily so and the reasons are as follows:

A. Muslims relate the JC texts with the Quran in that they believe the Torah was revealed to Moses and the Bible to Jesus in a similar way as the revelation of the Quran to Muhammad. Thus, they assume it is self-evident that any textual differences in the JC text proves corruption.

This is of course a patent flaw in the Muslims’ thinking: the JC texts were not direct revelations to Moses and Jesus. This is widely acknowledged by the Jews and Christians, the ‘Word of God’ notwithstanding. The Jews believe the Torah is a narrative of the life and teachings of Moses and was not written by him. Further, it is clear Muslims don’t read the Bible. If they had, they would know that the New Testament is comprised of the four Gospels, Pauline Letters, an ancient history of the early Christians and an account of Christian prophecies. Nothing in the New Testament can be seen to be in any way a direct revelation of Jesus. In essence, the JC texts are more akin to the hadiths than the Quran. Thus, by insisting on a ‘word-perfect’ accuracy is a STRAW MAN argument.

B. Translational variation is not evidence of textual corruption

The original texts were not written in the English language but Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic. Some Muslims, in their haste to judge the textual accuracy of the JC texts, point to differences in the English translations of the Bible. This is erroneous reasoning as these ‘TRANSLATIONAL’ variations do not evidence corruption of the original text at all. One might just as easily refer to English translations of the Quran to infer the Quran’s corruption.

C. Transcriptional variation is also not evidence of textual corruption

Muslims also point out that various Judaic or Christian sects use slightly different texts. They thus pronounce evidence of corruption. This is also erroneous reasoning as these ‘TRANSCRIPTIONAL’ variations do not evidence corruption of the original text. These variations are analogous to the differences in the hadiths. It can be seen from the hadith collections that some narratives are repeated in multiple hadiths, each of which are not identical, and some of which even contain contradictory details.

The only logical methods to determine if a scripture has been corrupted are:

i) comparison with the original text.

ii) authoritative accounts referencing differences between the original and extant texts.

Unfortunately for the critic, the original JC texts are lost. Thus, method i) is no longer available. It is pure bad luck for the critic: one cannot convict for want of evidence.

Also, since Judaism and Christianity do not have authoritative accounts dating to the early days of those respective religions method ii) is also unlikely to exist.

Thus, it is likely that it will be impossible to prove the JC texts have been corrupted. Textual variation is acknowledged – they are plain to see. But as evidence of scriptural corruption, they are not.

Finally, EVEN IF textual corruption of the JC texts is proved, it still leaves the question whether this corruption extends to the parallelism. If the corruption does not extend to the parallelism, then it is irrelevant to this discussion. To think otherwise would constitute the logical fallacy of ‘COMPOSITION’, commonly known as hasty generalization.
 
OLD CHARGES
Muhammad’s contemporaries commented on the similarities between the Quran and previous scripture: the Meccans pagans already knew the tales from the JC texts – calling them the “tales of the ancients”.
These verses are all found in the Meccan Qur’an, despite the fact that some of these verses have been inserted into Medinan suras, such as Sura al-Anfal 8. Scholars are unanimously agreed on the fact that these aforementioned verses are indeed Meccan, despite the suras in which they are now found. What one can gather from this is that the unbelievers, who spoke of the fairy-tales of the ancients in the Qur’an, were of the people of Mecca. None adopted this opinion in Medina after the migration.
light-of-life.com/eng/answer/a4990et2.htm#p120
Maududi confirms this. Surah 6 - last year of his life at Makkah; S8 - in 2 A. H. after the Battle of Badr; S 23 & 27 - the mid stage of Prophethood at Makkah; S 25 - the 3rd stage of Prophethood at Makkah; S 46 - end of the 10th year or early 11th year of Prophethood; S 68 - one of the earliest revealed at Makkah; S 83 - earliest stage at Makkah.

1 verse has the pagans accusing him of “making ancient tales written” (i.e. iktatabaha) that were recited (i.e. dictated) to him (25.5). Thus, the Quran alludes to the charge of ‘borrowing’ of JC tales even in the earliest days of Islam.

{Qaribullah & Darwish}
[6.25] Some of them listen to you. But We have cast veils over their hearts lest they understand it and in their ears heaviness; and if they see every sign they do not believe in it. When they come to you they argue, the unbelievers say: ‘This is nothing but the tales of the ancient ones.’

[8.31] Whenever Our verses are recited to them, they say: 'We have heard them, if we wished, we could speak its like. They are but tales of the ancients. ’

[23.82-83] ‘When we are dead and become dust and bones shall we be resurrected? We and our fathers have been promised this before. It is but of the ancients’ fictitious tales.’

[25.4-6] The unbelievers say: 'This is but a falsehood he has forged – another nation has helped him. ’ So they have come with wrong and falsehood. They say: ‘He has written tales of the ancients, they are recited to him at dawn and at the evening.’ Say: 'It was sent down by Him who knows the secrets of heavens and earth. He is Forgiving, the Most Merciful.

[27.67-68] The unbelievers say: ‘When we and our fathers are turned to dust, shall we be brought forth? We were promised this before, and so were our fathers. It is but the fictitious story of the ancients.’

[46.17] But he who says to his father and his mother, ‘Fie on you! Do you promise me that I shall be brought forth, when entire generations have passed away before me?’ Yet they supplicate to Allah for help ‘Woe to you! Believe, surely the promise of Allah is true.’ Then he says: 'This is nothing but fairytales of the ancients. ’

[68.15] When Our verses are recited to him, he says: ‘They are but fairytales of the ancients!’

[83.13] When Our verses are recited to him, he says: ‘Fictitious tales of the ancients!’

The evidence that at least some of these were JC tales and not that of the fairy-tales of Jinns, Houris and the like is the context, e.g. those relating to the Resurrection, and the charge that another nation had supplied these tales (i.e. the Jews and possibly Sabeans and Christians).

The Arabs heard the tales from the Jews. The implication is that these tales were common from the phrase, ‘used to explain…’, so much so as to warrant Muhammad’s warning Muslims to both disbelieve and believe the Jews.

Bukhari 6.60.12:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The people of the Scripture (Jews) used to recite the Torah in Hebrew and they used to explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. On that Allah’s Apostle said, "Do not believe the people of the Scripture or disbelieve them, but say:-- “We believe in Allah and what is revealed to us.” (2.136, also 3:84) {repeated in Bukhari 9.92.460 & 9.93.632}

This hadith suggests Muhammad was susceptible to ‘absorbing’ Jewish tales.

Bukhari 8.75.377:
Narrated 'Aisha: Two old ladies from among the Jewish ladies entered upon me and said, “The dead are punished in their graves,” but I thought they were telling a lie and did not believe them in the beginning. When they went away and the Prophet entered upon me, I said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Two old ladies…” and told him the whole story. He said, “They told the truth; the dead are really punished, to the extent that all the animals hear (the sound resulting from) their punishment.” Since then I always saw him seeking refuge with Allah from the punishment of the grave in his prayers.

Note how Aisha noticed he vigorously adopting the Jewish belief only after she had told him the tale. Before she told him she never saw this belief in him, implying he was susceptible to absorbing Jewish tales.
 
Perhaps the strongest evidence of the ‘foreigner’s’ identity comes from the Sira.

Ibn Ishaq page 180: "According to my information the apostle used often to sit at al-Marwa at the booth of a young Christian called Jabr, a slave of B. al-Hadrami and they used to say “The one who teaches Muhammad most of what he brings is Jabr the Christian, slave of the B. al-Hadrami.” Then God revealed in reference to their words “We well know that they say, “Only a mortal teaches him”.” The tongue of him at whom they hint is foreign, and this is a clear Arabic tongue.
injil.de/Main/Silas/saifdebate2.htm

This source specifically names the foreigner to be Jabr, slave of B. al-Hadrami.

Then there is this sahih hadith that specifically informs us that Muhammad learned from a Christian:

Bukhari 4:56:814:
Narrated Anas: There was a Christian who embraced Islam and read Surat-al-Baqara and Al-Imran, and he used to write (the revelations) for the Prophet. Later on he returned to Christianity again and he used to say: “Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him.” …

This Christian who taught Muhammad is not named in the sahih hadiths. However, Ibn Warraq, citing Waqidi, names him as ibn Qumta.

Waqidi [d. 207 AH D/823 CE] who says that a Christian slave named Ibn Qumta was the amanuensis of the prophet, along with a certain ‘Abdallah b. Sa‘ad b. Abi Sarh, who reported that “It was only a Christian slave who was teaching him [Mohammed]; I used to write to him and change whatever I wanted.” 6
debate.org.uk/topics/books/origins-koran.html

Regardless who this foreigner who taught Muhammad was, it is clear that this highly specific charge was leveled against Muhammad, and he revealed the aforementioned verse to ‘deflect’ it. That this foreigner existed is real: the Quran itself alluded to him by saying, ‘the tongue of him at whom they hint is a non-Arab’. Why would Muhammad say this? He admits there was someone (who taught him) whose tongue was not Arabic.

That this foreigner taught Muhammad the JC tales is alluded to when one follows Muhammad’s apologetic against this complaint in Surah 16. What follows 16:103 is Muhammad talking how Allah revealed the religion of Abraham, the Resurrection, the Everlasting Life, Judgment Day, prohibition of meat of swine and non-halal slaughter, and other practices given to the Jews.

In short, verse 16:103-104 is nothing more than Muhammad attempting to answer the charge that he learned the Jewish/Christian religion from a foreigner (probably Jabr). He was the Muslim who first came up with the excuse that the similarities between the JC religion and the Quran are due to the three scriptures sharing the same source, which he named as Allah.

Thus it is evident that Muhammad heard JC tales from various sources, beginning with Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail and from Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, to Jabr and the un-named Christian of Bukhari 4:56:814.

cont
 
Rodrigo Bivar:
Note how Aisha noticed he vigorously adopting the Jewish belief only after she had told him the tale. Before she told him she never saw this belief in him, implying he was susceptible to absorbing Jewish tales.
Salaam Brother Rodrigo;
If Muhammad was absorbing the Jewish tales, why would AI-Husayn bin Salam, a learned Rabbi, the leader of the Medinan Jews, embrace Islam? He then adressed his tribesmen saying:“O assembly of Jews! Be conscious of Allah and accept what Muhammad-has brought. By Allah, you certainly know that he is Allah’s Messenger and you can find prophecies about him and mention of his name and characteristics in your Torah. I for my part declare that he is the Messenger of Allah. I have faith in him and believe that he is true. I recognise him
Could the above be another fairy tale?

InCha’Allah, I will spare some time and participate to the debates in this interesting thread.

Salaam.
Joseph.
 
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Joseph_Alison:
Salaam Brother Rodrigo;
If Muhammad was absorbing the Jewish tales, why would AI-Husayn bin Salam, a learned Rabbi, the leader of the Medinan Jews, embrace Islam? He then adressed his tribesmen saying:“O assembly of Jews! Be conscious of Allah and accept what Muhammad-has brought. By Allah, you certainly know that he is Allah’s Messenger and you can find prophecies about him and mention of his name and characteristics in your Torah. I for my part declare that he is the Messenger of Allah. I have faith in him and believe that he is true. I recognise him
Could the above be another fairy tale?

InCha’Allah, I will spare some time and participate to the debates in this interesting thread.

Salaam.
Joseph.
Irrelevant. Please note that the charge of borrowing ancient tales was made in Mecca, not Medinah. You didn’t read my article properly. Read Maududi’s commentary of when the ancient tale ayat were revealed.

Besides, what does one rabbi prove? I know he converted a few Jews but the vast majority didn’t convert, but strongly resisted Muhammad’s message.

Ciubate,
Mata Moro
 
Rodrigo Bivar:
Irrelevant. Please note that the charge of borrowing ancient tales was made in Mecca, not Medinah. You didn’t read my article properly. Read Maududi’s commentary of when the ancient tale ayat were revealed.
Salaam Brother Rodrigo;
Irrelevant? Thank you brother.
I was not responding to your article. Here is the quote to which I responded:
Note how Aisha noticed he vigorously adopting the Jewish belief only after she had told him the tale. Before she told him she never saw this belief in him, implying he was susceptible to absorbing Jewish tales.
The moment you quoted Aicha and her husband Muhammad (PBUH), to me it meant the story with the old Jewish ladies you brought up happened in Medina, that is because Muhammad (PBUH) married Aicha in Medina, this is the reason why I brought up part of the conversion story about the Medinan Jewish Rabbi. The guy was a learned Rabbi and the leader of his people. He converted willingly to Islam because he found the truth in it and not “tales stories”.

Salaam.
Joseph.
 
There are idiots even among rabbis, and al-Husayn ibn Salam was a true idiot for believing in a man who’d make up verses like ‘kill the Jews wherever you find them’. If you were a Jew would you that verse is the truth?

How many other rabbis didn’t convert? Lots. We know there were at least 30 rabbis from the B. Nadir who didn’t convert. What is one rabbi compared to these 30 rabbis?
 
Rodrigo Bivar:
How many other rabbis didn’t convert? Lots. We know there were at least 30 rabbis from the B. Nadir who didn’t convert. What is one rabbi compared to these 30 rabbis?
Means he has seen the light (truth) and other were still remained in the darkness, Bivar… I see it as miracle 😃
 
POSSIBLE SOURCES OF THE ANCIENT TALES
Who did Muhammad learn the JC tales from? There is strong evidence he learned at least some from Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail. Zaid told the still-pagan Muhammad about Allah and Abraham’s religion. He also claimed that he was the only Quraysh who followed Abraham’s religion which he learned from a Jew and a Christian.

Bukhari 5.58.169:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: The Prophet met Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail in the bottom of (the valley of) Baldah before any Divine Inspiration came to the Prophet. A meal was presented to the Prophet but he refused to eat from it. (Then it was presented to Zaid) who said, “I do not eat anything which you slaughter in the name of your stone idols. I eat none but those things on which Allah’s Name has been mentioned at the time of slaughtering.” Zaid bin 'Amr used to criticize the way Quraish used to slaughter their animals, and used to say, "Allah has created the sheep and He has sent the water for it from the sky, and He has grown the grass for it from the earth; yet you slaughter it in other than the Name of Allah. He used to say so, for he rejected that practice and considered it as something abominable.

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail went to Sham, inquiring about a true religion to follow. He met a Jewish religious scholar and asked him about their religion. He said, “I intend to embrace your religion, so tell me some thing about it.” The Jew said, “You will not embrace our religion unless you receive your share of Allah’s Anger.” Zaid said, “'I do not run except from Allah’s Anger, and I will never bear a bit of it if I have the power to avoid it. Can you tell me of some other religion?” He said, “I do not know any other religion except the Hanif.” Zaid enquired, “What is Hanif?” He said, “Hanif is the religion of (the prophet) Abraham who was neither a Jew nor a Christian, and he used to worship None but Allah (Alone)” Then Zaid went out and met a Christian religious scholar and told him the same as before. The Christian said, “You will not embrace our religion unless you get a share of Allah’s Curse.” Zaid replied, “I do not run except from Allah’s Curse, and I will never bear any of Allah’s Curse and His Anger if I have the power to avoid them. Will you tell me of some other religion?” He replied, “I do not know any other religion except Hanif.” Zaid enquired, “What is Hanif?” He replied, Hanif is the religion of (the prophet) Abraham who was neither a Jew nor a Christian and he used to worship None but Allah (Alone)" When Zaid heard their Statement about (the religion of) Abraham, he left that place, and when he came out, he raised both his hands and said, “O Allah! I make You my Witness that I am on the religion of Abraham.”

Narrated Asma bint Abi Bakr: I saw Zaid bin Amr bin Nufail standing with his back against the Ka’ba and saying, “O people of Quraish! By Allah, none amongst you is on (sic: of ?) the religion of Abraham except me.” He used to preserve the lives of little girls: If somebody wanted to kill his daughter he would say to him, “Do not kill her for I will feed her on your behalf.” So he would take her, and when she grew up nicely, he would say to her father, “Now if you want her, I will give her to you, and if you wish, I will feed her on your behalf.”

Bukhari 7.67.407:
Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah’s Apostle said that he met Zaid bin 'Amr Nufail at a place near Baldah and this had happened before Allah’s Apostle received the Divine Inspiration. Allah’s Apostle presented a dish of meat (that had been offered to him by the pagans) to Zaid bin 'Amr, but Zaid refused to eat of it and then said (to the pagans), “I do not eat of what you slaughter on your stonealtars (Ansabs) nor do I eat except that on which Allah’s Name has been mentioned on slaughtering.”

Even the supposedly Muhammadan prohibition of female infanticide was inspired by Zaid. How often did Muhammad hear these stories from Zaid? The hadiths do not tell. However, one notes that the sira recounts Zaid’s withdrawal from Meccan society (where he was allegedly persecuted) to a cave in Mount Hira. Muhammad apparently visited the same cave at Ramadan on a yearly basis, an act his wife Khatija said was the custom of his tribe as an act of penance. Siratu’ Rasul, vol. i, p. 79.

Thus, there was ample opportunity for Muhammad to learn from Zaid long before the first revelation in 610AD. Some say Muhammad first went to Mt Hira when he was around 35, i.e. ~ 605AD. It is possible that Muhammad first visited Mt Hira when he was 33, when the “first unseen secrets” revealed themselves to him. Zaid died ~ 607AD. The cave in Mt Hira is very small, measuring 4 yards long and 1.75 yard wide – there seems no way Zaid and Muhammad could have avoided each other. Clearly they knew each other; the sahih hadiths make that clear, and we also know that Muhammad spent months in that cave that Zaid was said to have lived.

cont
 
Apparently, many of Zaid’s religious principles were also adopted by Muhammad.
(1) the prohibition of killing infant daughters by burying them alive, according to the cruel custom of the Arabs of the time; (2) the acknowledgment of the Unity of God; (3) the rejection of idolatry and the worship of Al-Lat, AI-‘Uzza’ and the other deities of the people; (4) the promise of future happiness in Paradise or the “Garden”, (5) the warning of the punishment reserved in hell for the wicked; (6) the denunciation of God’s wrath upon the “Unbelievers”; and (7) the application of the titles Ar Rahman (the Merciful), Ar Rabb (the Lord), and Al Ghafur (the Forgiving) to God. Moreover, Zaid and all the other reformers (Hanifs) claimed to be searching for the “Religion of Abraham.” Besides all this, the Qur’an repeatedly, though indirectly, speaks of Abraham as a Hanif, the chosen title of Zaid and his friends.
answering-islam.org.uk/Books/Tisdall/Sources/chapt6.htm
Argumenta ad hominem-loving Muslims who malign answering-islam should note that it references Ibn Ishaq’s Siratu’Rasul. The main thrust of Zaid’s story in the sira conforms to the reported meeting with Muhammad, and Zaid’s anti-female infanticide stance, in the sahih Bukhari hadiths.

Even the Muslim method of prayer may have originated from Zaid, as Ibn Ishaq wrote that he prayed by prostration on the palm of his hands (pg. 99-100).
Reference: mukto-mona.com/Articles/kasem/quran_origin.htm

Another possible source of JC stories is Umm Habiba bint Abu Sufyan, Muhammad’s eighth wife. Her former husband Ubaydullah b. Jahsh was a Christian who converted to Islam and migrated with other Muslims to Abyssinia, there to reconvert to Christianity. However, this is admittedly mere conjecture. Other critics name Mariah the Copt but the evidence is against her being the source of Muhammad’s JC borrowings as she was presented to Muhammad when he was residing in Medinah, long after he included the JC tales in his ‘revelations’.

There is yet another hint in the Quran that Muhammad was influenced by a ‘foreigner’.

[16.101-104] When We exchange a verse for another and Allah knows best what He is sending down they say: 'You are but a forger. 'No, most of them do not know. Say: 'The Holy Spirit (Gabriel) brought it down from your Lord in truth to confirm those who believe, and to give guidance and glad tidings to those who surrender. 'We know very well that they say: 'A mortal teaches him. 'The tongue of him at whom they hint is a nonArab; and this is a clear Arabic tongue. Those who disbelieve in the verses of Allah, Allah does not guide them for them is a painful punishment.

Who is this non-Arab who taught Muhammad? Could it have been Salman the Persian (who was a Christian) or Bahira the disgraced Nestorian?
Reference: mukto-mona.com/Articles/kasem/quran_origin.htm

The evidence for Salman is not strong and some say it was Bahira.
“Husain the commentator says on this passage that the Prophet was in the habit of going every evening to a Christian to hear the Taurat and Injil.” Hughes’ Dictionary of Islam, p. 30, quoting Tafsir-i-Husaini, Sale p. 223 and Muir’s Life of Mahomet, p. 72.
answering-islam.org.uk/Index/B/bahira.html

Islamic sources report that Muhammad, already at the age of nine to twelve, made his first journey with a trade caravan to Syria where he came in contact with Christians. We also know that on a second visit to Syria he showed great interest in the Judaism and Christianity he encountered there. He spent some time during that period with a Nestorian Christian monk named Bahirah (The Holy Qur`ân, Ali, p.7, note 8)

However the evidence is not convincing that it is Bahira that told Muhammad the JC stories.

cont
 
Perhaps the strongest evidence of the ‘foreigner’s’ identity comes from the Sira.

Ibn Ishaq page 180: "According to my information the apostle used often to sit at al-Marwa at the booth of a young Christian called Jabr, a slave of B. al-Hadrami and they used to say “The one who teaches Muhammad most of what he brings is Jabr the Christian, slave of the B. al-Hadrami.” Then God revealed in reference to their words “We well know that they say, “Only a mortal teaches him”.” The tongue of him at whom they hint is foreign, and this is a clear Arabic tongue.
injil.de/Main/Silas/saifdebate2.htm

This source specifically names the foreigner to be Jabr, slave of B. al-Hadrami.

Then there is this sahih hadith that specifically informs us that Muhammad learned from a Christian:

Bukhari 4:56:814:
Narrated Anas: There was a Christian who embraced Islam and read Surat-al-Baqara and Al-Imran, and he used to write (the revelations) for the Prophet. Later on he returned to Christianity again and he used to say: “Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him.” …

This Christian who taught Muhammad is not named in the sahih hadiths. However, Ibn Warraq, citing Waqidi, names him as ibn Qumta.

Waqidi [d. 207 AH D/823 CE] who says that a Christian slave named Ibn Qumta was the amanuensis of the prophet, along with a certain ‘Abdallah b. Sa‘ad b. Abi Sarh, who reported that “It was only a Christian slave who was teaching him [Mohammed]; I used to write to him and change whatever I wanted.” 6
debate.org.uk/topics/books/origins-koran.html

Regardless who this foreigner who taught Muhammad was, it is clear that this highly specific charge was leveled against Muhammad, and he revealed the aforementioned verse to ‘deflect’ it. That this foreigner existed is real: the Quran itself alluded to him by saying, ‘the tongue of him at whom they hint is a non-Arab’. Why would Muhammad say this? He admits there was someone (who taught him) whose tongue was not Arabic.

That this foreigner taught Muhammad the JC tales is alluded to when one follows Muhammad’s apologetic against this complaint in Surah 16. What follows 16:103 is Muhammad talking how Allah revealed the religion of Abraham, the Resurrection, the Everlasting Life, Judgment Day, prohibition of meat of swine and non-halal slaughter, and other practices given to the Jews.

In short, verse 16:103-104 is nothing more than Muhammad attempting to answer the charge that he learned the Jewish/Christian religion from a foreigner (probably Jabr). He was the Muslim who first came up with the excuse that the similarities between the JC religion and the Quran are due to the three scriptures sharing the same source, which he named as Allah.

Thus it is evident that Muhammad heard JC tales from various sources, beginning with Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail and from Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, to Jabr and the un-named Christian of Bukhari 4:56:814.
 
Great posting. Enjoyable to read. I wonder if I could take this article for my treasure? Senor Bivar? And would love to have comment from Joseph too.
 
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Neverland:
Great posting. Enjoyable to read. I wonder if I could take this article for my treasure? Senor Bivar? And would love to have comment from Joseph too.
Salaam Bother Neverland;
I will try Incha’Allah.
For the moment I just have time to skim through some posts and answer some of them. This thread needs a special dedication; Brother Rodrigo keeps flooding it with new allegations every day, answering them needs a big amount of time most people cannot afford.

Salaam.
Joseph.
 
Dear Joseph,
I meant this thread to be an intellectual discussion. If you don’t have the time or inclination to participate I suggest you give it a miss. I will endeavor to debate myself in the absence of worthy Muslim debaters.

Sorry to be blunt.

Buenos Dias,
Cid
 
Dear Joseph and Rodrigo (and Gonzales?),

Of course this is an interesting and important topic, that I wish to have more knowledge of. So, you may try to concentrate, because actually Rodrigo has given Gonzales a chance to answer but then he was a bit stagnant. I understand that the topic that you have to cover and answer has been wider, because you joined in the middle. Take your time, but we need also progress.

Neverland
 
In his book, The Bible and Archaeology, Sir Frederic G. Kenyon, former director and principal librarian of the British Museum, stated about the New Testament, "The interval, then, between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established."

Sir Fredric Kenyon, The Bible and Archaeology (New York: Harper & Brothers, 1940), 288ff. (bold and underline emphasis mine)

The following is from ‘The New Testament Documents and the Historicity of the Resurrection’ by Sam Shamoun answering-islam.org/Shamoun/documents.htm (some bold and underline emphsis mine)

’ “Of the four gospels alone there are 19,368 citations by the church fathers from the late first century on. This includes 268 by Justin Martyr (100-165), 1038 by Ireneaus (active in the late second century), 1017 by Clement of Alexandria (ca. 155-ca. 220), 9231 by Origen (ca. 185-ca. 254), 3822 by Tertullian (ca. 160s-ca. 220), 734 by Hippolytus (d. ca. 236) and 325 by Eusebius (ca. 265-ca. 339…) Earlier, Clement of Rome cited Matthew, John, 1 Corinthians in 95 to 97. Ignatius referred to six Pauline Epistles in about 110, and between 110 and 150 Polycarp quoted from all four Gospels, Acts and most of Paul’s Epistles. Shepherd of Hermas (115-140) cited Matthew, Mark, Acts, I Corinthians, and other books. Didache (120-150) referred to Matthew, Luke, 1 Corinthians, and other books. Papias, companion of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John, quoted John. This argues powerfully that the Gospels were in existence before the end of the first century, while some eyewitnesses (including John) were still alive.” (Norman Geisler, Encyclopedia, pp. 529-530)

Some critics have tried to debunk the NT documents due to the variant readings that exist between the MSS. Geisler responds:

"There is widespread misunderstanding among critics about ‘errors’ in the biblical manuscripts. Some have estimated there are about 200,000 of them. First of all, these are not ‘errors’ but variant readings, the vast majority of which are strictly grammatical. Second, these readings are spread throughout the more than 5300 manuscripts, so that a variant spelling of one letter in one verse in 2000 manuscripts is counted as 2000 ‘errors.’ Textual scholars Westcott and Hort estimated that only one in sixty of these variants have significance. This would leave a text 98.33 percent pure. Philip Schaff calculated that, of the 150,000 variants known in his day, only 400 changed the meaning of the passage, **only fifty were of real significance, and not even one affected ‘an article of faith or a precept of duty which is not abundantly sustained by other and undoubted passages, or by the whole tenor of Scripture teaching’ ** (Schaff, 177).

“Most other ancient books are not so well authenticated. New Testament scholar Bruce Metzger estimated that the Mahabharata of Hinduism is copied with only about 90 percent accuracy and Homer’s Illiad with about 95 percent. By comparison, HE ESTIMATED THE NEW TESTAMENT IS ABOUT 99.5 PERCENT …” (Geisler, Encyclopedia, pp. 532-533)

B. F. Westcott and F.J.A. Hort, the editors of The New Testament in Original Greek, also commented:

“If comparative trivialities such as changes of order, the insertion or omission of the article with proper names, and the like are set aside, the works in our opinion still subject to doubt can hardly mount to more than a thousandth part of the whole New Testament.” (B.F. Westcott, and F.J.A. Hort, eds., New Testament in Original Greek, 1881, vol. II, 2.)

Sir Frederick Kenyon states:

“… no unbiased scholar would deny that the text that has come down to us is substantially sound.” (Kenyon, The Bible, as cited in McDowell, Evidence, p. 49)

Kenyon rightly concludes:

It cannot be too strongly asserted that in substance the text of the Bible is certain: Especially is this the case with the New Testament.” (Sir Frederic G. Kenyon, Our Bible and the Ancient Manuscripts [New York: Harper and Brothers, 1941], 23 as cited in McDowell, Evidence, p. 45)

F. F. Bruce comments:

The evidence for our New Testament writings is ever so much greater than the evidence for many writings of classical author, the authenticity of which no one dreams of questioning. And if the New Testament were a collection of secular writings, their authenticity would generally be regarded as beyond all doubt. (F.F. Bruce, The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? 5th rev. ed. [Grand Rapids, MI: Inter-Varsity Press, 1988], p. 15) ’
 
Further Reading

Are the Biblical Documents Reliable? by Jimmy Williams probe.org/content/view/48/77/#text8

small typo in Shamoun’s article
“…325 by Eusebius (ca. 265-ca. 339…)…” (Norman Geisler, Encyclopedia, pp. 529-530)

should be

“…3258 by Eusebius (ca. 265-ca. 339…)…” (Norman Geisler, Encyclopedia, pp. 529-530)
 
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