paraplegic marriage

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scm:
Though I believe you are holding me to a higher standard than you have done for yourself when you quoted the english translation of Paul’s remarks in Corinthians, I will go to the Greek New Testament on this and report back, this will take time, but is not impossible for me. Going to the Hebrew OT is impossible for me, sorry.

I have demonstrated all that I can demonstrate, and yes I am using multiple English translations. However you have a good point and I will investigate the Greek leading to the term “one flesh”.
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Hey! no double standards here. I can “do” Greek also – but not the Hebrew (alas, I forgot everything I ever know). I’ll check with my friendly neighborhood Rabbi (if I can catch him – I work in an institution with chaplains.).
 
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mercygate:
Can you give us the original texts in Hebrew and Greek for that? In the OT, male genitals are discreetly referred to as “feet.” Hm. Since your take on these passages seems to be unique, you might want to demonstrate your rationale for us.
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I hope the greek letters show up here…

The operative phrase in 1 Corinthians 6:16 is:
?? ??? ??? ??? ???

transliterated as:
ho duo eis sarka mian

ho - definate artilce “the”
duo - the two, the twain
eis - into, unto, to, towards, for, among
sarka - flesh
mian - only one, someone

This is translated into english variously as “the two become one flesh”

So the Greek does not use any word indicating sexual intercourse.

In marriage the man and woman become one body in analogy to each of us becoming one in body with Christ. This is certainly not a reference to sexual intercourse.

I am interested in what your Rabbi says.
 
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scm:
I hope the greek letters show up here…

The operative phrase in 1 Corinthians 6:16 is:
?? ??? ??? ??? ???

transliterated as:
ho duo eis sarka mian

ho - definate artilce “the”
duo - the two, the twain
eis - into, unto, to, towards, for, among
sarka - flesh
mian - only one, someone

This is translated into english variously as “the two become one flesh”

So the Greek does not use any word indicating sexual intercourse.

In marriage the man and woman become one body in analogy to each of us becoming one in body with Christ. This is certainly not a reference to sexual intercourse.

I am interested in what your Rabbi says.
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Have the Rabbi on the phone right now. He says that “one flesh” means having sexual intercourse.
 
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mercygate:
Have the Rabbi on the phone right now. He says that “one flesh” means having sexual intercourse.
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I have discussed this to the limits of my ability. The Rabbi is an authority on OT Hebrew. “become one flesh” means “will have sexual intercourse”.

The Judeo-Chiristian Marriage is dependent on the singular sexual act of sexual intercourse.
 
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Catholic2003:
Infertile couples can marry validly; only impotent couples cannot.
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if this is the case then that is SO SO SO wrong. i hope this is not true, and if it is, i hope it is changed. that breaks my heart.
 
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TarAshly:
if this is the case then that is SO SO SO wrong. i hope this is not true, and if it is, i hope it is changed. that breaks my heart.
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I’m afraid to inform you that the impediment of perpetual impotence comes from divine law. It cannot be changed, any more than the Church can change to allow homosexual marriage.
 
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cargopilot:
It should be noted that it is the practice of the Church “not to hinder marriage” when impotence is doubtful.

So it would appear that, even if one suffered from a significant level of impotence, there would usually be some doubt as to the totality of the impotence, and therefore one would be eligible to marry. .
Let me assure you, the marital act can be completed . . in the normal way, even in the face of total erectile disfunction.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif
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It would appear that nowadays, the impediment of perpetual impotence would be awfully hard to prove. As someone pointed out, when an 80 year old couple wants to marry, nobody would have the gall to ask for proof of potency.
 
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Viki59:
It would appear that nowadays, the impediment of perpetual impotence would be awfully hard to prove. As someone pointed out, when an 80 year old couple wants to marry, nobody would have the gall to ask for proof of potency.
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I don’t think anyone is calling for potency testing of all seeking marriage. The simple point is that if one is impotent prior to marriage, they are not capable of marriage until that condition ceases. Even if the wedding is great and the Church approves the marriage, it doesn’t matter if those seeking to be married are incapable of consummating the marriage.

That is simply a matter of fact, not some sort of regulation or policy.
 
As a paraplegic-Catholic myself, I’ve experienced this first hand.
I was paralyzed from the waistdown in a snowboarding accident.
I’m rendered “impotent” as well. I was told if I were to get married in the catholic church, it would be invalid…thus I could never be a husband in the eyes of the church.
Canon Law 1084 is quite clear and valid.

Scotty
 
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Giannawannabe:
As a health care rehab professional, I have worked with many paraplegics. There is technology out there that enables men to have an erection and sexual intercourse.
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Hi Scotty.
Welcome to the forums!
My husband is also paraplegic, and we practice abstinence. We were married and adopted children before becoming Catholic, and our priest says our marriage is valid and sacramental. Sort of an unusual circumstance.

Since technology exists to enable normal relations in many cases, and the church does not challenge marriages, it seems to me that most paraplegics could marry. What’s your take on this?
 
This is something I have just recently found out about on various other threads,and this one reason is probably at this point stopping my conversion to the Catholic faith,
I do not want to be a part of a “descriminatory organization”

Love is the whole Basis for our faith and the church has condemed (sp) these people without love is without Faith.
without faith is without afterlife…

We are blessed here in the USA to have courts and other churches to correct this huge error…

Let the slamming fly
the lord gave me the courage to post this I also have the courage to accept the persecution that will come…
John.
 
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she_he:
Let the slamming fly
the lord gave me the courage to post this I also have the courage to accept the persecution that will come…
Code: 
                                         John.
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Now pray for Him to give you the courage to put this “stumbling block” aside for the sake of your faith.
 
Hopefully you won’t be slammed. Hopefully you will be open to learning why the Church has these rules. Hopefully you’ll go back and read all the posts in this thread that explains about this Canon Law and why Marriage in the Church is held is such high regard. It is not about discrimination, it’s about the nature and sacrament of Marriage. Hopefully you’ll continue to learn about the Church and grow in your faith and knowledge. God bless you.
 
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she_he:
Let the slamming fly
the lord gave me the courage to post this I also have the courage to accept the persecution that will come…

John.
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No persecution from me, I understand where you’re coming from.
But the only reason you are firm in your rejection is because you do not fully understand the teaching.
That’s ok, because the ability to truly understand comes from the Holy Spirit.

I, too, as you will note from earlier on in the thread, could not wrap my mind around the reasoning behind the rule.

The chocolate chip cookie reference Mercygate shared back in post #14 opened the window enough for me to at least stop gawking about the seeming unjustice conveyed.

From there I prayed, asked questions (lots), read various articles from Catholic sources. If you’ll notice, this thread has been around since May yet it was only recently that I came to appreciate the Church’s teaching on the matter (I always accepted it, out of obedience, but it just never sat well with me).

I don’t understand it well enough to be able to help you, not that it would matter as you are in the ‘reject’ mode anyway. But, I will keep you in my prayers that the Spirit may guide you to His truth.
I ask only that you pursue research from Catholic sources about this teaching before you slam the door shut on the Church Christ established.

What you need to keep in the back of your mind is that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to descend upon the apostles on Pentecost. On that day all truth Jesus wanted shared with humanity until He comes again was revealed to them, and since that very day the Truth has been shared and protected by the Catholic Church through apostolic succession.

Truth is unchanging. Our times may change, our minds may change, societal values may change, and that is what has happened through the years. Back in the day, perhaps permanent impotence was not an issue in humanity. Perhaps it isn’t addressed in writing because it wasn’t something anyone talked about, let alone wrote about, but as someone else already noted, even civil secular societies require consummation as the ‘seal’ of marriage.

Adam and Eve consummated the very first marriage as God designed, following His command. The Church cannot disregard what God has established. It is not within Her power to do so. Neither is it in the power of man to change God’s commandment. Man does, however, manage to establish laws and practices which accommodate those who reject the Truth. This basically confuses people more than anything else.

Research the history of marriage within the Catholic church.
Research the history of marriage in other societies and other religions. I suspect you will find that consummation is the factor by which marriages are defined.

You are struggling with making sense of societal laws and practices you’ve been raised to accept as truth with revealed Truth from the Catholic Church which is opposite that which you’ve come to know and accept. Man masks and clouds truth. Jesus, through His Church, reveals Truth in it’s purest form. If you want to be angry - be angry with the society which has led you astray all these years and which continues to mislead people.
 
Hello:

and I will add I am shocked about now beyond belief.I was expecting big time slams. and thanks for the kind replies!!!

I enclosed a tiny bio at the bottom of this post so you have an idea of where my attitude comes from I think you may be surprised,

I WILL ALWAYS KEEP an OPEN MIND for learning and correction of my views
I am not stopping my regular attendance to RCIA classes with my fiance, I enjoy the time spent learning I find it Interesting and its very quality time spent with my fiance.I will continue to attend church with her as well, I enjoy the mass and at my age now also can understand it.

Our Homily this week was about Thanking the Lord for about everything, it went so far as we need to thank the Lord for the cars we drive because he created the men to make them for us
he gave about 30 examples of "man made things to give thanks for because man was Created to make them for us,thier calling so to speak.
why not Thank the Lord for the DRs who CAN now surgically insert an apparatus that makes an erection possible for a paralyzed person so he is able to achieve easier penetration
and also the DR for writing the prescription for a shot that will give an ejaculation to these same individuals so they can “consumate” the marriage…
because those two things would NOT be Natural so therefore is not allowed,

And for the record paralyzed persons have erections and ejaculations the problem is they dont relize it
so to assume that consumation is not possible is passing judgement without “trial”
Yes the woman would have to be on the watch,and yes other means would have to be instilled to help cause an ejaculation
as the person has zero feeling in that area.But as all men and most women know the mind can bring on an ejaculation.
remember a paralyzed person still has the drive,

But all that too is against church rules To me its a way to “weed out” the weak or the different, discrimination in top form…

either way in the above example the person was denied a chance to marry and has no idea at all if he would have been able to consumate.

I teach karate to youths and adults many of my students are handicapped in some way, from add/adhd to blind or deaf to paralyzed, and yes paralyzed people can do martial arts and some of my paralyzed students even compete in tournaments, anyways I practice what I preach, In my classes I tell people there is no such word as “cant” cant never gets anywhere,so this is where my attituide comes from not from my upbringing so to speak…
I believe anyone can do anything they set thier mind to,they just have to have the courage to try.I have always been one to fight for what is or should be right, and offer help to those whom need it
and want it.and I do not believe in any form of persecution or discrimination this is also something that Kept me going with My fiance to her church I felt I was genuinly welcome even though I was a Baptised Lutheran.although I think i have been to maybe 3 Lutheran masses,when I first started attending the RCIA classes I wasnt considering converting I was going for several reason for quality time with my fiance, we dont get a lot of free time together she has 4 children.and to learn which in turn i would be able to help with her studies, I was more than welcomed with open arms at the RCIA classes, again not discriminated against…

so now you have a bit of my background, I am a hard egg to break so to speak but the egg can be broken if the cause is just and Fair.denying marriage to someone over something as minute as sex is not just and fair…esspecially when you take into effect Mary and Joseph to me old or new testament has no bearing they were cohabitating during both periods and founders of the “Church”
Code: 
 God bless all
My shoulders are no smaller they have a lot on them but can take much more. Who has to much in thier backpack
John
 
I was not aware of this, I think it is sad, very, very sad. Doesn’t seem very loving or Christian to me. 😦
 
I guess it comes down to this: true sacremental marriage by definition includes the unitive act. If the unitive act is impossible, sacremental marriage is not possible.

If the two love each other and intend to live together and adopt with no relations, I’m not sure that there is anything wrong with this. I wonder if the Church would allow them a just a civil marriage? Probably not.

It is sad, but in fact, what they are hoping for is a marriage in name only. I think one comparison would be (if you believe homosexuality is a genetic/natural condition) a homosexual couple wanting to marry and being allowed by the state. It would be a marriage in name only, but would bear no sacremental truth.
 
she_he,

the Church would not consider any medical intervention unacceptable if it rendered it possible for a person to have a natural human act of intercourse. It is my understanding that medication to assist erection and implants would be allowed.
 
Hello:

I have spent about 6 hours now researching that and unfortunatly its still a 50/50 on if accepted or not,
the problem seems to be on the issue of fertility.
some define the implants as a fertility use…

But thanks for your reply.
John
 
The issue is not fertility. Infertile couples can still have a sacramentally valid marriage. A perfect example would be a couple who marries after the woman has reached menopause.

The issue is the ability to consummate the marriage. In the situation you describe where the paraplegic is able to have an erection, marriage would not be denied.

Furthermore, it seems licit for a married person to conjour images in his or her mind if it is desired or necessary as part of the marital act.
 
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