paraplegic marriage

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she_he:
Hello:
so now you have a bit of my background, I am a hard egg to break so to speak but the egg can be broken if the cause is just and Fair.denying marriage to someone over something as minute as sex is not just and fair…esspecially when you take into effect Mary and Joseph to me old or new testament has no bearing they were cohabitating during both periods and founders of the “Church”
Code:
 God bless all
My shoulders are no smaller they have a lot on them but can take much more. Who has to much in thier backpack
Code:
                                         John
But you are missing that sex is an integral part of the marriage covenant! It’s not some minute thing–it’s part of the binding of the covenant.
I’m also a bit confused about your last statement about Mary and Joseph, could you clarify that a bit. They never cohabited!! They were espoused, which is different than todays engagement.

God bless
Jennifer
 
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Viki59:
Hi Scotty.
Welcome to the forums!
My husband is also paraplegic, and we practice abstinence. We were married and adopted children before becoming Catholic, and our priest says our marriage is valid and sacramental. Sort of an unusual circumstance.

Since technology exists to enable normal relations in many cases, and the church does not challenge marriages, it seems to me that most paraplegics could marry. What’s your take on this?
Hi.

My case is that my spinal cord was COMPLETELY severed.
Thus there’s no motor function left below my level of injury (T12)
I’ve looked into to penial implants but with atrophy over the years, professionals deem it as a health risk.

I’m now interested in becoming an apologist myself…ironically , I was part of an abstiance program with my ex-girlfriend (before I was paralyzed, and now still)

This is a very important matter for us catholics: Canon Law 1084 MUST be respected…even if you are a paraplegic.
 
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coralewisjr:
I hope that canon law isn’t that bad. I thought that infertile couples are meant to adopt children.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne
Infertile is fine by Canon Law, and not an impediment to marriage-being incurably impotent IS an impediment to marriage as the couple will never be able to complete the marriage act, which seals the sacrament of marriage. So, it’s not ‘cruel’, the Church simply recognizes that sex IS an important part of marriage.

Anna x
 
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Rosie24:
I guess it comes down to this: true sacremental marriage by definition includes the unitive act. If the unitive act is impossible, sacremental marriage is not possible.

If the two love each other and intend to live together and adopt with no relations, I’m not sure that there is anything wrong with this. I wonder if the Church would allow them a just a civil marriage? Probably not.

It is sad, but in fact, what they are hoping for is a marriage in name only. I think one comparison would be (if you believe homosexuality is a genetic/natural condition) a homosexual couple wanting to marry and being allowed by the state. It would be a marriage in name only, but would bear no sacremental truth.
I have nothing to add to the conversation, just wanted to say, Rosie24, I like how you wrote this post 🙂
 
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amantoan:
If they cannot copulate why do they need to be married? In other words, what would they have after the wedding that they don’t have now? I doubt living together would be a sin, since there is no chance of fornication (correct me if I am wrong please). They can still have a loving, committed relationship without being married. People seem to think the word marriage should apply to whatever kind of relationship they want, as if that title (or lack thereof) validates/invalidates their relationship. But marriage describes a very specific kind of relationship. If theirs doesn’t meet the criteria it is not a marriage. That doesn’t mean it is not a great, very meaningful relationship. It just means the relationship in question does not require a sacramental blessing.
Thank you for this post. It is one of the clearest explanations I have read on the topic. Once we each self define marriage, we have strayed from the truth and should we not all be concerned with love and truth, or are we to separate the two?
 
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anna1978:
Infertile is fine by Canon Law, and not an impediment to marriage-being incurably impotent IS an impediment to marriage as the couple will never be able to complete the marriage act, which seals the sacrament of marriage. So, it’s not ‘cruel’, the Church simply recognizes that sex IS an important part of marriage.

Anna x
Well put Anna!
🙂
 
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she_he:
why not Thank the Lord for the DRs who CAN now surgically insert an apparatus that makes an erection possible for a paralyzed person so he is able to achieve easier penetration and also the DR for writing the prescription for a shot that will give an ejaculation to these same individuals so they can “consumate” the marriage…because those two things would NOT be Natural so therefore is not allowed
You’ve read up on the matter extensively, would you mind sharing where you came across the writings which show the Catholic Church would consider the apparatus and the shot ‘non-natural’ means and therefore prohibit their use?
And for the record paralyzed persons have erections and ejaculations the problem is they dont realize it so to assume that consumation is not possible is passing judgement without “trial”.
Yes the woman would have to be on the watch,and yes other means would have to be instilled to help cause an ejaculation
as the person has zero feeling in that area.But as all men and most women know the mind can bring on an ejaculation.
remember a paralyzed person still has the drive,

But all that too is against church rules
Same question with that. Would you mind sharing the references to Catholic documents which would deem the cooperation of the wife in this situation to be against Church rules?

The way the canon law is written it written:

Can. 1084 §1. Antecedent and perpetual impotence to have intercourse, whether on the part of the man or the woman, whether absolute or relative, nullifies marriage by its very nature.

§2. If the impediment of impotence is doubtful, whether by a doubt about the law or a doubt about a fact, a marriage must not be impeded nor, while the doubt remains, declared null.

It would seem to me that both scenarios you presented would fall under the ‘doubtful’ category since the act of consummation can occur - with assistance.

So the question really becomes whether or not implants, drugs or physical stimulation/manipulation from the wife are allowed by the Church, and I haven’t come across any writings on the matter. But I haven’t looked into it from that angle either, so any leads you could provide would be most helpful.

Thanks.
 
OK, as usual, I was a bit put off by what I assumed to be a problem with the Church’s teaching on this issue. Then I kept reading and started to gain some understanding. (Thank you to all of you knowledgeable posters!) Isn’t it always that way with controversial issues? We want to see things through our worldly eyes, and often connot conceive of how these issues look in the eyes of God. We are all so quick to judge God and his Church! Shame on us.

I only had one more thought to add to everyone else’s excellent points. Perhaps this law keeps people from committing ongoing sexual sin? It is only natural for married persons to want to have a sexually intimate relationship. In the case of definite (and I mean definite, not suspected) and permanent impotence, would the couple not try to reach this intimacy in “illicit” ways? After all, only one half of the couple would be incapable of having relations and might feel obligated to sexually satisfy their partner *somehow *, right? And since normal relations would be impossible, this would force them to reach this intimacy in a sinful manner. Just a thought, though. Perhaps this teaching of the Church is *merciful * instead of mean, like many presume? As is the case with a good many Church teachings, eh? :hmmm:
 
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legeorge:
OK, as usual, I was a bit put off by what I assumed to be a problem with the Church’s teaching on this issue. Then I kept reading and started to gain some understanding. (Thank you to all of you knowledgeable posters!) Isn’t it always that way with controversial issues? We want to see things through our worldly eyes, and often connot conceive of how these issues look in the eyes of God. We are all so quick to judge God and his Church! Shame on us.

I only had one more thought to add to everyone else’s excellent points. Perhaps this law keeps people from committing ongoing sexual sin? It is only natural for married persons to want to have a sexually intimate relationship. In the case of definite (and I mean definite, not suspected) and permanent impotence, would the couple not try to reach this intimacy in “illicit” ways? After all, only one half of the couple would be incapable of having relations and might feel obligated to sexually satisfy their partner *somehow *, right? And since normal relations would be impossible, this would force them to reach this intimacy in a sinful manner. Just a thought, though. Perhaps this teaching of the Church is *merciful * instead of mean, like many presume? As is the case with a good many Church teachings, eh? :hmmm:
Well I still even get non-catholics baffled by the fact that I’ve accepted the fact, and at peace with, that I will never be a “husband” as defined by the catholic church due to my status as a paraplegic. My ex-girlfriend and I practiced abstinance even BEFORE my snowboarding accident. It’s a very special person that can take this on: being the spuse/significant other of a paraplegic…even more, a catholic paraplegic

-Scotty
 
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Scotty1084:
Hi.

My case is that my spinal cord was COMPLETELY severed.
Thus there’s no motor function left below my level of injury (T12)
I’ve looked into to penial implants but with atrophy over the years, professionals deem it as a health risk.

I’m now interested in becoming an apologist myself…ironically , I was part of an abstiance program with my ex-girlfriend (before I was paralyzed, and now still)

This is a very important matter for us catholics: Canon Law 1084 MUST be respected…even if you are a paraplegic.
You are a GIANT!

Have you been in touch with Jason and Crystallina Evert?
 
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Scotty1084:
Well I still even get non-catholics baffled by the fact that I’ve accepted the fact, and at peace with, that I will never be a “husband” as defined by the catholic church due to my status as a paraplegic. My ex-girlfriend and I practiced abstinance even BEFORE my snowboarding accident. It’s a very special person that can take this on: being the spuse/significant other of a paraplegic…even more, a catholic paraplegic

-Scotty
God Bless you good and faithful servant. Surely your reward in heaven will be great!! If only we could all submit to the Church’s authority with such humility and faith!! You are an inspiration!! God Love You!!! :tiphat: You have graciously accepted your cross. I am in awe! Truly!!
 
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legeorge:
Perhaps this law keeps people from committing ongoing sexual sin? It is only natural for married persons to want to have a sexually intimate relationship. In the case of definite (and I mean definite, not suspected) and permanent impotence, would the couple not try to reach this intimacy in “illicit” ways? After all, only one half of the couple would be incapable of having relations and might feel obligated to sexually satisfy their partner *somehow *, right? And since normal relations would be impossible, this would force them to reach this intimacy in a sinful manner. Just a thought, though. Perhaps this teaching of the Church is *merciful *instead of mean, like many presume? As is the case with a good many Church teachings, eh? :hmmm:
That’s certainly the way I’ve come to understand and appreciate the teaching through Theology of the Body. The Church is merciful in Her teaching.
 
Tantum ergo:
It’s not a question of “feelings”, though. If the condition came about after the marriage, it has no bearing on the validity of the marriage itself. If before. . .well, it may sound harsh, but we are talking “Marriage” here. We aren’t talking about 20th or 21st century Westernized “marriage” (note the small ) which is all above L-O-V-E (and S-E-X) and about people’s RIGHTS, and about all the “trappings” and all the “trimmings” and all the MATERIAL things which we equate with “marriage”.
👍 I agree with you. Lately I have been having the idea that since all that we have has been freely given to us from above, and that we are to be entirely subject to His will, that none of us actually has “rights,” though we ALL have obligations. Too often we think of what we are “owed” or “ought to have” but not what we are supposed to give. We are a sad, backwards culture. 😦

But we have hope of better! 🙂 🙂 🙂
 
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YinYangMom:
Can someone clarify this statement?
It was my understanding that if a person knows they are infertile they cannot be married in the church.
I have a cousin who had to have a hysterectomy at 19 and I know she has never married…I thought it was because of the church’s position.

I thought infertility/impotence fell under the same call as homosexuality - in that it means a different calling for the person of that condition…they are called to a celibate and chaste life by default (as opposed to those of us who get to choose a celibate life through Holy Orders or not, by choosing marriage, though everyone is called to life a chaste life).

Also, if impotence/infertility afflicts the person after a valid marriage that couple’s marriage continues to be valid, correct?
Thinking about a young married couple who perhaps get involved in an auto accident or swimming accident or something like that which renders one or the other unable to produce children…if the situation happened before they were blessed with a child. They’re still called to live a spiritual life together through their marriage covenant, right?
Ok simple now aday terms a man whom has had a vasectomy is sterile he has no “swimmers” to seek out the womans egg.

an impotent man has the swimmers, but cannot gain an erection which everyone seems to think is needed for coitus to happen.

Penetration can be achieved without an erection,however it is difficult,and you do not need an erection to ejaculate
so to me there is no problem consumating.
However the church has taken a stand denying a marriage to a paralyzed man and it makes no sense.
John
 
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YinYangMom:
You’ve read up on the matter extensively, would you mind sharing where you came across the writings which show the Catholic Church would consider the apparatus and the shot ‘non-natural’ means and therefore prohibit their use?.
Because the drug used is a fertility drug.or without drug use a
and now the slamming to me a “protate massage” Or by other “sinful” visual aids to get the ejaculation.
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YinYangMom:
Same question with that. Would you mind sharing the references to Catholic documents which would deem the cooperation of the wife in this situation to be against Church rules?.
this is pretty much self explanatory with the above ramifications.

This comes from friends I knew years ago 2 couples where the man was paralyzed they would not use the extract then artificial insemination means to gain conception but they did have children by the above stated ways.

and it is a hazzardous risk i admit for the penile implant for a paralyzed person,BUT The main Ingrediant to the arguement and canon law is it does make it possible so that indicates the means are there as someone had posted either in this or aother thread.and with those means we should rightly assume that consumation did in fact take place upon cohabitation as is the fact with all people…which would assume the marriage sacramental…

John.
 
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she_he:
Ok simple now aday terms a man whom has had a vasectomy is sterile he has no “swimmers” to seek out the womans egg.

an impotent man has the swimmers, but cannot gain an erection which everyone seems to think is needed for coitus to happen.

Penetration can be achieved without an erection,however it is difficult,and you do not need an erection to ejaculate
so to me there is no problem consumating.
However the church has taken a stand denying a marriage to a paralyzed man and it makes no sense.

John
The Church states that an impotent man cannot marry. Paraplegia is one of those situations where, if medical science can come up with an ethical way for a paraplegic to execute “a natural human act of intercourse” the barrier would fall.

This is what happened with NFP. Before medical science revealed the delicate natural mechanism of the fertility cycle, the only way a couple could avoid a pregnancy (say, where pregnancy would be life threatening), would be to abstain completely from their conjugal privileges.

Let’s hope that science soon finds an ethical way for paraplegics to engage in this important aspect of married life.
 
I’ve read all the posts and still think this sounds harsh. This couple is being denied a sacrament because of a medical condition. And the priest should have informed them of the rules, prior to asking about whether or not he could perform.

Hopefully they’ll marry civilly, if Brazil allows it. And I see no reason why they cannot fulfill their love in other ways. It seems to me that the Church has said that they cannot marry, so any use of their sexual faculties in untraditional ways would be irrelevant to the Church, since they cannot regularize their relationship.
 
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a_cermak:
I’ve read all the posts and still think this sounds harsh. This couple is being denied a sacrament because of a medical condition. And the priest should have informed them of the rules, prior to asking about whether or not he could perform.

Hopefully they’ll marry civilly, if Brazil allows it. And I see no reason why they cannot fulfill their love in other ways. It seems to me that the Church has said that they cannot marry, so any use of their sexual faculties in untraditional ways would be irrelevant to the Church, since they cannot regularize their relationship.
For a sacrament to be valid certain conditions must be met. Is marraige an objective reality that has a definition that we all can know, or is it a subjective construct that we each decide for ourselves? If it is strictly subjective than anything goes.
 
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she_he:
Because the drug used is a fertility drug.or without drug use a
and now the slamming to me a “protate massage” Or by other “sinful” visual aids to get the ejaculation.
But what Church documents have you read which actually state the fertility drug is prohibited and that the massage is sinful if the massaging makes it possible for the male to enter into female and deposit his sperm?

I get that you’ve come to believe the Church opposes these methods but I’m asking what Church documents support your understanding. What did you read which led you to that conclusion? I would like to read it too.
This comes from friends I knew years ago 2 couples where the man was paralyzed they would not use the extract then artificial insemination means to gain conception but they did have children by the above stated ways.
What you describe here involved artificial insemination, which to me means the extracted sperm are deposited into the female through external means. That, definitely, would be prohibited by the Church, not only for paraplegics but for all Catholics.

It also pertains to fertility for a couple which is a separate matter. We’re focusing on the consumation of a marriage in this thread.
…it is a hazzardous risk i admit for the penile implant for a paralyzed person,BUT The main Ingrediant to the arguement and canon law is it does make it possible so that indicates the means are there as someone had posted either in this or aother thread.and with those means we should rightly assume that consumation did in fact take place upon cohabitation as is the fact with all people…which would assume the marriage sacramental…
It seems you are stating an implant would be prohibited by the Church. What Church documents have you read which state that position. I don’t understand why you would think the Church would be opposed to the implant.
 
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a_cermak:
I’ve read all the posts and still think this sounds harsh. This couple is being denied a sacrament because of a medical condition. And the priest should have informed them of the rules, prior to asking about whether or not he could perform.

Hopefully they’ll marry civilly, if Brazil allows it. And I see no reason why they cannot fulfill their love in other ways. It seems to me that the Church has said that they cannot marry, so any use of their sexual faculties in untraditional ways would be irrelevant to the Church, since they cannot regularize their relationship.
The Church is saying they cannot enter into a Sacramental Marriage. It’s not a ruling as much as it is a statement of fact. Because the covenant cannot be sealed through the proscribed manner (consumation) there would be no covenant, thus no sacrament. It’s not a matter of whether or not they can fulfill their love in physical ways.

The Church did not come up with the proscribed form of the sacrament, God did through Adam and Eve. The Church protects and preserves God’s revelations. As with other matters, when a Catholic has trouble accepting Church teaching the person they need to speak to about it is God. Through prayer and research into Church teaching the person can come to understand and appreciate God’s ways.
 
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