F
fpt
Guest
The four grandparents should try to find out solutions for permitting the baby of being with its own mother, morally speaking.
- Status
A
allycat10
Guest
Yes, I am TOTALLY against any adoption done through coercion and manipulation like what seems to be taking place in this situation. It’s actually MORE flabbergasting to me than the girl becoming a pregnant teen. While I agree that adoption is the most ideal situation for this baby, everyone knows we don’t always get ideal. It doesn’t mean that if this girl decides to keep the baby, the world will come to an end but she and the baby’s father will HAVE to make this decision, not the OP. If she keeps the baby, life will still go on and there could be immense blessings that come from this difficult situation. OP, I will keep the you, your daughter, and the whole family in prayers. Oh and I will also be praying for the father of this baby. I hardly believe he raped this girl. I don’t know the situation, but it sounds like it was consented sex and probably sex that had been going on before the pregnancy came to be. OP, your daughter was an active participant and by pressing statutory rape charges against him, you will destroy his life. I don’t see how anything good could come from it. Whereas, your daughter’s life was not destroyed through becoming a pregnant teen. Sure, she has to make more difficult, adult decisions in front of her, but that is her consequence. She will live and if she has parents that can support her if she decides to keep the baby, then everyone will be fine (even if baby’s father takes a hike down the road).
Kudos to those of you who have come on here to give your personal experience as having been the parent of a pregnant teen! It’s AWESOME that you supported your daughters, even though the situation was difficult and even better that you can offer your support to the OP.
You can be the best parent and instill moral values to your children, but kids still make mistakes and poor choices- sometimes small and sometimes big. You won’t be able to always control the outcome either.
F
fpt
Guest
Here, the Calvinist and the Catholic Answers are the same, only the degree is different. Shamre shame!!! Good reading!!!
traditioninaction.org/religious/k011rpUnwedMothers_Stretenovic.html
Moral Questions Unwed Mothers: The Calvinist and the Catholic Answers Fr. Paul Sretenovic
Catholic solutions
The presupposition of the three solutions below is that the mother has full right over her child, as has the father. They also have the duty to raise their child well. In principle, they should marry, if the father is still single. But, as almost always happens, the father is either unknown because of the promiscuous life of the mother, or is known but has fled his responsibilities. So, let us face the common case of a single mother alone with her child.
What are the solutions for such a scandalous situation?
The first is marriage. If the woman finds another man of upright character who marries her in the Church and takes her and the child under his custody, her situation is regularized. He covers her shame with his honor and his name.
Leclercq confirms this solution for this irregular mother/child:
“The Church, faithful to her traditional policy in favor of marriage, abandons her rigor when the person repairs the fault. It was a strong rigor, indeed, but one can verify that Canon Law, which aims at the reparation of the disorder as much as for its condemnation, is wide open and favors legitimizing [the illegitimate child] by a subsequent marriage” (2).
K011_TurningTable.jpg - 169505 Bytes
Above the Convent Matris Domini in Bergamo, Italy, with a cradle in its grills. It is a modern version of the medieval “turning wheel,” installed in all convents and monasteries on the order of Pope Innocent III for receiving undesired babies of unwed mothers - National Geographic, October 2007
Another solution for an unwed mother who does not have financial means to provide for her child or cannot bear the moral shame of her situation is to give the child to a Convent or a Monastery. It is the old solution of the “turning wheel,” which, in the Middle Ages, ensured that the Church would look after illegitimate children and make sure they had a healthy moral and intellectual formation. Such wheels are on the return in certain areas of the world, including Germany and Italy, although they are no longer necessarily advisable, given the crisis in the Church and that we are no longer living in a Catholic society.
Adoption is also a possibility for such a situation, provided that the unwed mother is at least reasonably certain that the foster parents will raise the child in the Catholic Faith. The role of the godparents, usually in practice more of a background role, clearly becomes more active and they are required to help the mother fulfill her responsibilities in such a situation. It may even be the case that one or both of the godparents (if they are married, which is often the case) would be in a situation to become the foster parents. That would be ideal.
An important point to remember in these last solutions is that the unwed mother has to overcome her natural affection for her child in order to give the best chance to save his soul.
This separation imposed by charity will go a long way in helping the unwed mother to make reparation for her sin, assuming, of course, that she did sin, and was not violated without her fault.
I do not believe that what the Church recommends regarding the unwed mother is harsh. It is the most charitable way to face what is in fact the harsh reality. When the sin is manifest, the penance has to be manifest.
In this regard, if we recall the example of the early Church, after a person committed a serious sin, there was a long period of time after public penance before the person could return to receiving Holy Communion.
The concern of the Church when she asks for public penance is not only for the person who sinned, but for the whole society. Indeed, first, she makes an example of the sinner for society so that others might not follow the same path. Doing so, she lessens the number of sins committed against God, a holy motive and an obligation for all. Second, the Church helps the sinner to support the necessary penance and teaches the person how to avoid falling into the same errors in the future.
Properly viewed, having a perpetual reminder of one’s misdeeds in the form of public “shunning,” is not cruel, but rather in itself a great mercy to the woman who might thereby bewail her sins for the rest of her life.
This is what the first Pope of the Church did all his life, after the Passion. It is a solid tradition that there were caverns under the eyes of St. Peter caused by the tears that he shed every day for his public thrice denial of Christ. St. Mary Magdalene spent the last decades of her life as a hermit in a cave doing penance for her past sins.
The end of such penance is to move the sinner to increase his union with God, to increase his charity. This Catholic perspective is a far cry from the ostracism of Hawthorne’s Scarlet Letter, and hence, the Puritanical spirit.
The OP seems to be almost on the same way!!! This position is not catholic. ** It is a shame postion**
traditioninaction.org/religious/k011rpUnwedMothers_Stretenovic.html
Moral Questions Unwed Mothers: The Calvinist and the Catholic Answers Fr. Paul Sretenovic
Catholic solutions
The presupposition of the three solutions below is that the mother has full right over her child, as has the father. They also have the duty to raise their child well. In principle, they should marry, if the father is still single. But, as almost always happens, the father is either unknown because of the promiscuous life of the mother, or is known but has fled his responsibilities. So, let us face the common case of a single mother alone with her child.
What are the solutions for such a scandalous situation?
The first is marriage. If the woman finds another man of upright character who marries her in the Church and takes her and the child under his custody, her situation is regularized. He covers her shame with his honor and his name.
Leclercq confirms this solution for this irregular mother/child:
“The Church, faithful to her traditional policy in favor of marriage, abandons her rigor when the person repairs the fault. It was a strong rigor, indeed, but one can verify that Canon Law, which aims at the reparation of the disorder as much as for its condemnation, is wide open and favors legitimizing [the illegitimate child] by a subsequent marriage” (2).
K011_TurningTable.jpg - 169505 Bytes
Above the Convent Matris Domini in Bergamo, Italy, with a cradle in its grills. It is a modern version of the medieval “turning wheel,” installed in all convents and monasteries on the order of Pope Innocent III for receiving undesired babies of unwed mothers - National Geographic, October 2007
Another solution for an unwed mother who does not have financial means to provide for her child or cannot bear the moral shame of her situation is to give the child to a Convent or a Monastery. It is the old solution of the “turning wheel,” which, in the Middle Ages, ensured that the Church would look after illegitimate children and make sure they had a healthy moral and intellectual formation. Such wheels are on the return in certain areas of the world, including Germany and Italy, although they are no longer necessarily advisable, given the crisis in the Church and that we are no longer living in a Catholic society.
Adoption is also a possibility for such a situation, provided that the unwed mother is at least reasonably certain that the foster parents will raise the child in the Catholic Faith. The role of the godparents, usually in practice more of a background role, clearly becomes more active and they are required to help the mother fulfill her responsibilities in such a situation. It may even be the case that one or both of the godparents (if they are married, which is often the case) would be in a situation to become the foster parents. That would be ideal.
An important point to remember in these last solutions is that the unwed mother has to overcome her natural affection for her child in order to give the best chance to save his soul.
This separation imposed by charity will go a long way in helping the unwed mother to make reparation for her sin, assuming, of course, that she did sin, and was not violated without her fault.
I do not believe that what the Church recommends regarding the unwed mother is harsh. It is the most charitable way to face what is in fact the harsh reality. When the sin is manifest, the penance has to be manifest.
In this regard, if we recall the example of the early Church, after a person committed a serious sin, there was a long period of time after public penance before the person could return to receiving Holy Communion.
The concern of the Church when she asks for public penance is not only for the person who sinned, but for the whole society. Indeed, first, she makes an example of the sinner for society so that others might not follow the same path. Doing so, she lessens the number of sins committed against God, a holy motive and an obligation for all. Second, the Church helps the sinner to support the necessary penance and teaches the person how to avoid falling into the same errors in the future.
Properly viewed, having a perpetual reminder of one’s misdeeds in the form of public “shunning,” is not cruel, but rather in itself a great mercy to the woman who might thereby bewail her sins for the rest of her life.
This is what the first Pope of the Church did all his life, after the Passion. It is a solid tradition that there were caverns under the eyes of St. Peter caused by the tears that he shed every day for his public thrice denial of Christ. St. Mary Magdalene spent the last decades of her life as a hermit in a cave doing penance for her past sins.
The end of such penance is to move the sinner to increase his union with God, to increase his charity. This Catholic perspective is a far cry from the ostracism of Hawthorne’s Scarlet Letter, and hence, the Puritanical spirit.
The OP seems to be almost on the same way!!! This position is not catholic. ** It is a shame postion**
P
pianistclare
Guest
Well, objectively speaking,
A loving practicing Catholic family wouldn’t feel “forced” into anything, They would simply respond in a loving way, based on Catholic moral teaching and the Catholic view of what it means to support one’s relatives in times of crisis.
Not based on “oh wow, this is a disaster”.
But I get what you’re saying.
A loving practicing Catholic family wouldn’t feel “forced” into anything, They would simply respond in a loving way, based on Catholic moral teaching and the Catholic view of what it means to support one’s relatives in times of crisis.
Not based on “oh wow, this is a disaster”.
But I get what you’re saying.
F
fpt
Guest
The great grandparents??? Where are they??? Are they alive??? Can they help?
E
EnglishTeacher
Guest
Oy. You are really jumping to conclusions and need to chill a bit. The OP is looking to strongly encourage (not force) his daughter toward adoption because that is likely the best option for the baby in this situation, not because he is ashamed of her or is trying to make her do penance or something like that.
It is a difficult situation with no perfect answers, but there is no need to jump on the OP and accuse him of not loving his daughter and the future grandchild and of not being Catholic enough, etc., etc…
F
fpt
Guest
In my humble opinion, the OP,** without knowing,** can have some intellectual approach in link with this web site. Some devout catholic lay persons can be touched,* in an inconscient way*, by “ism words” of the past. The puritan views and co can be very powerful.Oy. You are really jumping to conclusions and need to chill a bit. The OP is looking to strongly encourage (not force) his daughter toward adoption because that is likely the best option for the baby in this situation, not because he is ashamed of her or is trying to make her do penance or something like that.
It is a difficult situation with no perfect answers, but there is no need to jump on the OP and accuse him of not loving his daughter and the future grandchild and of not being Catholic enough, etc., etc…
The true natural goodness, the true charity and the true love are the keys. Be careful, be prudent, be fair, be balanced, be reasonable, be honest, be catholic in order to discern.
F
fpt
Guest
The method for solving the issues has to respect the catholic principles. There are rights, the obligations and duties of each one. **The parents have to expose to their daughter the realistic options, in the respect of the natural moral order of the rights, of the obligations and of the duties of each one. **The adoption has to be, only, the ultimate option. The exception is and has to stay the exception, otherwise, that is morally wrong.
The parental moralism, the parental puritanism, the parental bigotry, the parental shame in reason of their religion and of this “particular situation” has to be avoided and fought. The parents are catholic and they are not simple christians. They have obligations in favor of their daughter and of baby.
The “almost brain washing”, all the day, in favor the adoption is not very catholic. That is not good.** How do you define the “almost brain washing”, in this situation? What is it? How to stay totally free for deciding?**
The father could be submitted to a penal trial via the statutory laws of rape. **A threaten on the father. **Is he a true rapist? For the father of the future mother, this male teenager is an “offender”, in his mind father. He has to try to change his position. The fact of thinking, that the female teenager was under the influence of male teenager and thus she had no skill for consenting about the sexual activities, *is very strange. *!!!
The parental moralism, the parental puritanism, the parental bigotry, the parental shame in reason of their religion and of this “particular situation” has to be avoided and fought. The parents are catholic and they are not simple christians. They have obligations in favor of their daughter and of baby.
The “almost brain washing”, all the day, in favor the adoption is not very catholic. That is not good.** How do you define the “almost brain washing”, in this situation? What is it? How to stay totally free for deciding?**
The father could be submitted to a penal trial via the statutory laws of rape. **A threaten on the father. **Is he a true rapist? For the father of the future mother, this male teenager is an “offender”, in his mind father. He has to try to change his position. The fact of thinking, that the female teenager was under the influence of male teenager and thus she had no skill for consenting about the sexual activities, *is very strange. *!!!
J
johnphilip1972
Guest
J
johnphilip1972
Guest
Thank you!Oy. You are really jumping to conclusions and need to chill a bit. The OP is looking to strongly encourage (not force) his daughter toward adoption because that is likely the best option for the baby in this situation, not because he is ashamed of her or is trying to make her do penance or something like that.
It is a difficult situation with no perfect answers, but there is no need to jump on the OP and accuse him of not loving his daughter and the future grandchild and of not being Catholic enough, etc., etc…
T
Truth_Faith13
Guest
J
johnphilip1972
Guest
Obviously I love my daughter, I didn’t feel the need to reiterate that during my initial post because, you know, she’s my daughter. I assumed that was a given. I love my wife and all of my children and have worked very, very hard to provide them with everything they need and some of what they want. I am proud of each and every one of them for their individual talents, skills and abilities. However I find it incredibly disheartening that many of the posters here don’t seem to be focusing on the most innocent of all in this situation-the baby!
T
Truth_Faith13
Guest
This is a beautiful story…brought a tear to my eye. Thank-you so much for sharing!
T
Truth_Faith13
Guest
I never assume parents love their children (as unfortunately many dont!) and your first post didnt show it - it was all about you and your wifes feelings and your situation and what you want. The only thing you said was that you were disgusted and beside yourself.
To me a parent who loves his child is never disgusted by that child no matter what he/she does…disappointed yes, but never disgusted.
F
fpt
Guest
*The pregnancy of your unmarried daughter is not morally wrong, per se. Her pregnancy is not a sin, per se.
*
Only, the sexual intercourses out of the marriage are morally wrong and are sinful. The sexual intercourse out of the marriage are instantaneous moral offenses, not continuous moral offenses.
The baby is your grand child!!! Do you consider this baby, like one of grand children? yes or no? Are you ashamed because your daughter will be a unmarried mother? Do you make differences between a grand child in law and a natural grand child? Why?
*
Only, the sexual intercourses out of the marriage are morally wrong and are sinful. The sexual intercourse out of the marriage are instantaneous moral offenses, not continuous moral offenses.
The baby is your grand child!!! Do you consider this baby, like one of grand children? yes or no? Are you ashamed because your daughter will be a unmarried mother? Do you make differences between a grand child in law and a natural grand child? Why?
J
johnphilip1972
Guest
I’ve made no implications that I think her pregnancy is a sin. Neither my wife nor I am at all concerned about shame or judgment. We are concerned about the baby. My daughter’s choices are what led to this pregnancy, the baby does not get a choice. I don’t think I need to argue that a child needs a father and a mother. There are thousands of studies and statistics that prove that. There are an equal number that show that a life in poverty is not ideal for a child, and that very likely what will happen. And the chances of a teen mother successfully completing her education and being a successful mother are very low. I want what is best for the baby. The baby deserves two loving parents who are ready to be parents. A fifteen year old child is not ready to be a parent.
B
bitterhope
Guest
My baby sister got pregnant at the age of 14, and had her baby at 15. She wasn’t married. Her boyfriend asked her to abort the baby but she said no. My dad was sad I’m sure, but he helped her find solutions. Never did he state being disgusted or worry about himself. He worried about my baby sister. She wanted so much to be a good mom. She bought into the stuff her adoption counselor told her, like how unselfish it would be to give up her baby, and in the next breath list off all the selfish reasons life would be easier if she have up her baby. My baby sister was determined to be the best mom she possibly could be, but she was so depressed! My dad asked her of she really wanted to put the baby up for adoption. She said no, but how else could she make it work? How could she even buy diapers on her own? What was she going feed the baby? What about clothes and toys and everything else? My dad said the most prolife thing I have ever heard in my life. He told her that babies are only as expensive as you make them. Most “needs” are just wants. Most moms can breastfeed so food costs can be greatly reduced. Cloth diapers can make diapering nearly free. Most baby clothes can be found free or very cheap from goodwill or individual people. He helped her search out options to mother her child instead of making her feel forced to give up on mothering. My sister contacted her boyfriend who regretted asking her to abort their baby. He was young and scared and said something he knew he never meant. They worked together to find a way to be good parents. Their baby is now 13, and is the best thing that ever happened to the family. She is sweet and smart. She’s also a big sister! Her parents married 5 years ago and have two more kids. It worked out great for them all.
I am not opposed to adoption. I know there are reasons for adoptions to occur. But how can people really believe that adoption is ideal? Ideal is a married couple having a baby and raising it together. All adoptions begin with a loss of some sort. Out of sadness might come joy, but it always begins with loss and sorrow. Either a single mom is grieving her loss, a child is orphaned, abuse occurred…it always begins in pain. I realize it isn’t politically correct to point out this fact about adoption but it is truth. Adoption is a beautiful and generous gift for those involved most of the time, but ideally moms would parent their children with family support to help it become possible. I know more teen moms that are successful and did a great job raising their kids than I have teen moms that are not successful. I do know teen moms that put their kids up for adoption. Two girls are doing well and have married and had more kids. Four never grew up and remain party girls, but are more “careful” now. My best friend from high school married, found out she couldn’t have more kids, divorced and committed suicide 6 months ago. She never got over missing her baby–she named him Nicholas. If your daughter is not wanting to give up her baby you run the risk of losing her forever if you try “convincing” her it’s best for everyone involved. Are you really so upset about a baby that God helped create, that you would push your daughter away because of it?
I am not opposed to adoption. I know there are reasons for adoptions to occur. But how can people really believe that adoption is ideal? Ideal is a married couple having a baby and raising it together. All adoptions begin with a loss of some sort. Out of sadness might come joy, but it always begins with loss and sorrow. Either a single mom is grieving her loss, a child is orphaned, abuse occurred…it always begins in pain. I realize it isn’t politically correct to point out this fact about adoption but it is truth. Adoption is a beautiful and generous gift for those involved most of the time, but ideally moms would parent their children with family support to help it become possible. I know more teen moms that are successful and did a great job raising their kids than I have teen moms that are not successful. I do know teen moms that put their kids up for adoption. Two girls are doing well and have married and had more kids. Four never grew up and remain party girls, but are more “careful” now. My best friend from high school married, found out she couldn’t have more kids, divorced and committed suicide 6 months ago. She never got over missing her baby–she named him Nicholas. If your daughter is not wanting to give up her baby you run the risk of losing her forever if you try “convincing” her it’s best for everyone involved. Are you really so upset about a baby that God helped create, that you would push your daughter away because of it?
J
johnphilip1972
Guest
Okay…I’m disgusted at the thought of my 15 year old daughter having sex. Shame on me. I am in total awe of your superiority. Perhaps one day I can be as perfect as you. :bowdown:
N
Nan_S
Guest
fpt,
I agree with the poster who said you need to chill. You’ve already made your point. Your persistence in machine-gun posting, riddled with bold-faced shouting, is only alienating everyone.
Dear Saint Joseph, adoptive father of our Lord Jesus Christ, please lift our prayers to heaven that these families work together with mutual respect and support in best resolving this crisis, for the interests in the young teen parents, and for the interest of the baby. If it is best for all three of these children that this baby be adopted, please put their hearts at peace by steering them towards godly adoptive parents who will raise this child to know and love the Lord.
X
Xantippe
Guest
Nobody normal likes to think about their near relations having sex of any kind.
- Status