Parents miss Mass, kids get ax

[Sir_Knight]

ByzCath:

… they were not attending Mass so they could not partake of the First Eucharist anyways …

How do they know that they were not attending Mass? Because the parents didn’t throw any money into the collection plate? Maybe finances are tight and with paying for CCD classes, there wasn’t much left over to make a contribution.

Maybe they attend Mass at another parish but that parish doesn’t have a CCD program.

 

[InnocentIII]

Sir Knight:

How do they know that they were not attending Mass? Because the parents didn’t throw any money into the collection plate? Maybe finances are tight and with paying for CCD classes, there wasn’t much left over to make a contribution.

Maybe they attend Mass at another parish but that parish doesn’t have a CCD program.

Then I am sure that Mrs LoPizzo and the other parents would have made it quite clear that they were attending mass. Neither Mrs LoPizzo nor the other parent interviewed claimed that they had been incorrectly accused of not attending mass, both simply claimed their choildren shouldn’t been thrown out. I think that justifies a prima facie indictment.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

pnewton:

While they are not responsible for the actions of their parents, they are affected by those actions. A child of non-Catholic parents can not be baptized, even at the wishes of a relative because of lack of a reasonable expectation he would be raised Catholic.

You are right. They are profoundly affected by those actions.

Because of their parents, these kids are “at risk” to borrow a term from the political liberals. They are at risk because they are not receiving the sacraments regularly, and don’t have encouragement at home to remain Catholic.

It also profoundly affects them when they are also cut off from Catholic education entirely, so they have no Catholic role models or encouragement outside of the home either.

Again, if it’s strictly a lack of resources that forces “decisions to be made” then I empathize with the frustration and predicament of the pastor. If he’s doing it to teach somebody, anybody a lesson, then I am very disappointed that he took that approach. There is too much mentality of “shape up or ship out – and take your pathetic kids with you because they are wasting space here. Besides, it makes everything look better on paper when I get rid of the deadwood and am left with only a handful of saints.” Of course, it is disguised as “we have to protect the Church’s image.”

While the Church has a responsibility to make the Sacraments as available as possible, the form this takes is up to the judgement of the priest. I am slow to criticize this type of action, even though I would not like it in my parish, because the priest is doing what he sees best, and he knows more than we.

I understand slow to criticize.

The presumption that a priest knows more than we is misleading. Certainly he knows more details about this situation, and I fervently hope he knows more Catholic theology than I do. That does not make him all wise. In fact, he is in a difficult situation and probably has a difficult time thinking clearly not only because of the situation, but because of well-meaning Catholics polarizing into factions and nagging him about what we’re going to do. When I worked on stewardship committees and school finance formulas, one of the most difficult things to deal with are lay leaders of the parish who fear not God or men, but are absolutely vitriolic toward those Catholics they imagine to not be Pulling Their Weight, and constantly promote arguments leading to punitive action because they feel personally offended because someone else is getting a reward for doing less work. This is an ugly divisive human feeling and judgment that has a whole lot of power over parish leaders who are frustrated and therefore not thinking straight in the first place.

I’d venture to guess that when it comes to understanding the dynamics in a family with children, and how marginal scums are likely to respond to this sort of thing, this priest does not know more than I do.

This guy made a tough decision. I think it appears to be a poor one. If he thinks he’s going to give 300 kids a pastoral advantage by getting them out of school, then with all due respect, I think it’s absolutely backwards strategy.

If you think I’m scum for my ideas, then all the better reason to listen to me. These people are scum, and it might help to consult a “takes one to know one” person like me to work out a strategy that isn’t likely to backfire. These people are on a totally different planet than the priests and devout Catholics, so what works on devout Catholics is not automatically going to work on them. Maybe this strategy would wake up devout Catholics to get their kids to Church, but among the semi-pagan it just gives them one more reason to completely leave the Church, but instead of being indifferent they will go around the rest of their lives saying the Church was unfair and uncaring toward their children, and some of these children will grow up believing it, the Church having done nothing to prove their parents wrong.

Message to parents:
You neglect your children, well fine! We can neglect them too. That will teach you a thing or two, now won’t it?

Won’t it? Hey, where’d you go?
…
I will not condemn this priest for his decision. I think it’s poor strategy, but not necessarily a result of evil intent on the part of the priest. I think the priest was just a pawn in a huge human power struggle and felt forced to “come down” on one side or the other.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Liberalism in government begets trouble, because self-motivation works better than threats at getting people to be productive.

Liberalism in the Church begets social justice, because there is plenty of human kindness to go around if it’s properly applied.

Liberalism in this regard, meaning the approach of “it takes a village” applied to some degree, instead of a totally “sink or swim” mentality where people are self-sufficient.

Liberalism in the government means a person appears disadvantaged, so we play Robin Hood and point a gun at a person whom we don’t consider disadvantaged and “suggest” that person fork some over. Liberalism in the Church (not to be confused with dissenting from theological doctrine) for purposes of this discussion means that a person appears disadvantaged, so the rest of us cheerfully and willingly try to help them, even if their own parents are slacking.

Liberalism in the government is a threat, because as we see it can take over policies and change laws to do things like promote gay marriage. Liberalism in Church is not a threat, because the Church is all about liberalism in the form of social justice so it does not conflict with her purpose. It is also not a threat to the Church unless Benedict XVI becomes deceived, and the Church is misled through him and the gates of hell prevail against her.

Of course, apologists are all about protecting the purity of the Church’s teachings, and maybe it is uncomfortable when she doesn’t hold her sheep to strict enough conduct standards to suit the bean-counting mentality we all have had drilled into us for our whole lives. Christ tried to break up this “tit for tat” mentality, but it is a very powerful force in a society that fundamentally rewards individuals for making certain worldly goals.

Alan

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Sir Knight:

How do they know that they were not attending Mass? Because the parents didn’t throw any money into the collection plate? Maybe finances are tight and with paying for CCD classes, there wasn’t much left over to make a contribution.

Maybe they attend Mass at another parish but that parish doesn’t have a CCD program.

If you read the article it said that many people place their empty collection envelopes into the collection basket so that they will be counted as attending.

Also, seeing that the priest announced that this would be done 18 months ago, let me repeat that becuase it is important, EIGHTEEN MONTHS AGO I am sure that families that attended another parish that doesn’t have CCD (are there any?) they would have let the priest know and he would have verified this.

Its no wonder that men are not answering the call to the priesthood, look at how you treat priests when they do their job.

You must remember Church Teachings on this matter. We have an Obligation to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days. It doesn’t say, only if you can get there. So as these children were not attending regular Sunday Masses they would not be eligible to recieve the Eurcharist, not even First Eucharist, unless you are also for excusing them from this Church Teaching.

The priest is not withholding the Sacraments from these children as they have yet to recieve it and anyways its their parents actions that are causeing the problems for them. Easy way to fix that, its for the family to start attending Sunday Masses as is required by Church Teachings.

Wow, what a novel idea, to actually do what the Church Teaches.

 

[pnewton]

AlanFromWichita:

…Certainly he knows more details about this situation, and I fervently hope he knows more Catholic theology than I do. That does not make him all wise.

I was referring to the specific circumstances and actual training in Church administration. I know in our parish we have a waiting list for CCE after it starts. We literally run out of room and teachers. As a result, we have mandatory attendence requirements (for the students). It is not that we want anyone turned down, but if we must, we would rather make sure those that are serious are all given a seat in class.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

pnewton:

I was referring to the specific circumstances and actual training in Church administration. I know in our parish we have a waiting list for CCE after it starts. We literally run out of room and teachers. As a result, we have mandatory attendence requirements (for the students). It is not that we want anyone turned down, but if we must, we would rather make sure those that are serious are all given a seat in class.

Yes, that makes a lot of sense.

Using your reasoning, I would still grieve over the children cut off, but understand that spiritual people are under worldly restraints so decisions have to be made.

One thing our ex-pastor did, was break the tradition of giving the school kids a day off on Holy Days of Obligation. He said he felt awful that parents didn’t bring their kids to Church on Holy Days, so we started requiring them to come to school and then went to Mass together. Problem solved, at least on Holy Days.

Alan

 

[Lurch104]

ByzCath:

Please enlighten us, how exactly where these children punished?

After all, they are part of CCD and they were not attending Mass so they could not partake of the First Eucharist anyways.

They are being expelled from CCD. If the pastor was to exclude them from the sacrament, fine. However, excluding them from the CCD program is indeed punishment.

 

[Lurch104]

ByzCath:

You must remember Church Teachings on this matter. We have an Obligation to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days. It doesn’t say, only if you can get there. So as these children were not attending regular Sunday Masses they would not be eligible to recieve the Eurcharist, not even First Eucharist, unless you are also for excusing them from this Church Teaching.

Again, you are wrong. There are many valid reasons for missing mass on Sundays. From the CCC:

2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

It seems to me that the person caring for a sick family member would indeed fall into this category. While I agree that every effort must be made to attend mass, for some this is not possible. In ByzCaths world, the sick and elderly I visit every sunday are commiting grave sin because the are too ill to go to mass.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Lurch104:

Again, you are wrong. There are many valid reasons for missing mass on Sundays. From the CCC:

2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

It seems to me that the person caring for a sick family member would indeed fall into this category. While I agree that every effort must be made to attend mass, for some this is not possible. In ByzCaths world, the sick and elderly I visit every sunday are commiting grave sin because the are too ill to go to mass.

While this may be true, you and I are not the competent authority to judge this, the pastor and the bishop are.

Also, please do not put words into my mouth. We must all attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days. Illness is a reason to miss, so is caring for someone who is ill, but you seem to read over part of that CCC entry you posted, so I will repost it with bold emphasis added to the part you seem to ignore.

2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, **unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.**119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

Hmmm, now that I read it agian, I do not see anyting in there that says “caring for a sick family member”. After all Mass is only, at the most, one hour. You can’t leave a sick person alone for an hour or so?

Also, this carries a foot note of 119. That foot note references the Code of Canon Law, so for completness I will post those.

119 Cf. CIC, can. 1245.

Can. 1245 Without prejudice to the right of diocesan Bishops as in Can. 87, a parish priest, in individual cases, for a just reason and in accordance with the prescriptions of the diocesan Bishop, can give a dispensation from the obligation of observing a holyday or day of penance, or commute the obligation into some other pious works. The Superior of a pontifical clerical religious institute or society of apostolic life has the same power in respect of his own subjects and of those who reside day and night in a house of the institute or society.

 

[Yonnie]

Well I may be the exception not the rule. But when my wife and I were first married she started sending my stepdaughter to CCD ( I think mostly at the insistance of her mother) even though she didn’t attend mass regularly . We eventually started going to mass regularly, I converted and my MIL is my Godmother.

 

[Giannawannabe]

ByzCath:

Just becuase you are limited by some external circumstance it does not mean that you can not make a choice in the matter.

So, you can not get to Mass for some reason, lets say you live 20 miles away from the nearest Church and your car is broken down and you can not get it fixed until Monday but if the car was working you still would chose not go to Mass. Then even though you could not physically get there, you are still guilty of a mortal sin.

So in this case, even though the child’s parents are not going to Mass and they will not take the child there, if the child still intellectually makes the choice that they would not go if they could, then they are guilty of a mortal sin.

Is that better?

Okay. I’m revisiting this ByzCath. When we’re talking about 7 and 8 year olds, I’m not sure they can make an “intellectual” choice about attending Mass. I’ll bet if the parents aren’t attending Mass, the kids don’t even realize half the time that it’s Sunday, let alone a Holy Day of Obligation. I guess to prove your point that it can still be a mortal sin to miss Mass, even if it’s impossible to get there, this makes sense. However, most of the kids I teach in my First Communion class don’t appear to be very “intellectual” about much, let alone making a choice to not attend Mass. The mortal sin in the case of young kids missing Mass is the parents’ mortal sin, not the kid’s.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Giannawannabe:

Okay. I’m revisiting this ByzCath. When we’re talking about 7 and 8 year olds, I’m not sure they can make an “intellectual” choice about attending Mass. I’ll bet if the parents aren’t attending Mass, the kids don’t even realize half the time that it’s Sunday, let alone a Holy Day of Obligation. I guess to prove your point that it can still be a mortal sin to miss Mass, even if it’s impossible to get there, this makes sense. However, most of the kids I teach in my First Communion class don’t appear to be very “intellectual” about much, let alone making a choice to not attend Mass. The mortal sin in the case of young kids missing Mass is the parents’ mortal sin, not the kid’s.

If they can not make the intellectual choice about attending Mass then they are not yet at the age of reason and therefore not able to make a proper confession. If they can not make a proper confession then they are not ready to recieve the Eucharist as First Eucharist is preceeded by First Confession in the Latin Church.

 

[Lurch104]

ByzCath:

While this may be true, you and I are not the competent authority to judge this, the pastor and the bishop are.

Also, please do not put words into my mouth. We must all attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days. Illness is a reason to miss, so is caring for someone who is ill, but you seem to read over part of that CCC entry you posted, so I will repost it with bold emphasis added to the part you seem to ignore.

2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, **unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.**119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

Hmmm, now that I read it agian, I do not see anyting in there that says “caring for a sick family member”. After all Mass is only, at the most, one hour. You can’t leave a sick person alone for an hour or so?

Also, this carries a foot note of 119. That foot note references the Code of Canon Law, so for completness I will post those.

119 Cf. CIC, can. 1245.

Can. 1245 Without prejudice to the right of diocesan Bishops as in Can. 87, a parish priest, in individual cases, for a just reason and in accordance with the prescriptions of the diocesan Bishop, can give a dispensation from the obligation of observing a holyday or day of penance, or commute the obligation into some other pious works. The Superior of a pontifical clerical religious institute or society of apostolic life has the same power in respect of his own subjects and of those who reside day and night in a house of the institute or society.

Well, if that is your reading of the CCC and Canon Law, fine. It is unfortunately, incorrect. It is indeed up to the Catholic individually as to what constitutes a grave matter for missing mass. The example cited in the CCC is just that, examples, not intended to be all inclusive. Care of infant and care of sick family member are reasonably similar for inclusion in the definition. Priests and bishops are to make the determination when the faithful asks for dispensation. Again, following your tortured logic, if I have the flu, I am to call my pastor and ask permission to miss mass. Of course that is wrong.

I suggest that instead of cheering the expulsion of children from CCD, you volunteer some of your time to try and bring these families back into the fold. It is indeed easier to throw bricks from the sideline, but much more rewarding to plant a seed within a child that may bring them more fully into the church, or God willing, a vocation.

 

[Giannawannabe]

ByzCath:

If they can not make the intellectual choice about attending Mass then they are not yet at the age of reason and therefore not able to make a proper confession. If they can not make a proper confession then they are not ready to recieve the Eucharist as First Eucharist is preceeded by First Confession in the Latin Church.

I understand your logic here. However, I doubt every one of the kids who do not attend Mass, due their parents’ neglect, make a choice not to attend Mass. What about them? Should these kids who want to attend Mass, know they SHOULD attend Mass be kicked out of CCD because their parents don’t bring them to Mass? I have taught kids in my class that know they SHOULD attend Mass, but their parents don’t bring them. Should I kick them out of my class? I tend to spend more time with these particular kids, really try to plant the seeds of Faith, so that when they are old enough to take themselves to Mass, they will.

 

[YinYangMom]

Giannawannabe:

I understand your logic here. However, I doubt every one of the kids who do not attend Mass, due their parents’ neglect, make a choice not to attend Mass. What about them? Should these kids who want to attend Mass, know they SHOULD attend Mass be kicked out of CCD because their parents don’t bring them to Mass? I have taught kids in my class that know they SHOULD attend Mass, but their parents don’t bring them. Should I kick them out of my class? I tend to spend more time with these particular kids, really try to plant the seeds of Faith, so that when they are old enough to take themselves to Mass, they will.

Personally, I’m not so sold on preparing 2nd graders for the Eucharist anyway. I’m in my 40s and just recently (within the past decade) came to understand the reality of the Sacrament. Until then it was going through the motions.

My kids (16 and 15) get the concept, but you can tell they have yet to experience the reality of the transubstantiation. They treat the host with respect and reference, of course, but they have trouble at Eucharistic Adoration seeing the wafer as anything but a host which has been blessed - but is still a host. They know they’re supposed to see the living Christ but they can’t get their minds to wrap around that concept yet - and they’re in their teens.

How is a 2nd grader supposed to get it? How can a child expect to comprehend the reality that Christ is truly present in a wafer which feels like a wafer, tastes like a wafer and dissolves like a wafer, and wine which has no consistency of blood at all (which is what one would expect - at least something of thicker consistency).

But as to your question about what to do with those children in your class who KNOW they’re supposed to go to Mass but their parents don’t take them. Do they WANT to go to Mass? That’s the bigger question. If they want to go, then you can offer to take them yourself, or ask the parish secretary to help find a neighbor you can ask to take the child to Mass with them. You can ask to speak with the child’s parents and at least ask their permission to take the child yourself, or make arrangements for someone else in the parish to take the child. If they oppose, then their true colors are revealed. Otherwise, they would apologize for hindering their child’s development and offer to do better themselves by bringing the child to the next Mass. In the meantime, yes, planting the seeds is important, but more can be done, don’t you think? And if that means having the priest pull these children out after 18 months of trying to get their parents to cooperate, then so be it, no?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Giannawannabe:

I understand your logic here. However, I doubt every one of the kids who do not attend Mass, due their parents’ neglect, make a choice not to attend Mass. What about them? Should these kids who want to attend Mass, know they SHOULD attend Mass be kicked out of CCD because their parents don’t bring them to Mass? I have taught kids in my class that know they SHOULD attend Mass, but their parents don’t bring them. Should I kick them out of my class? I tend to spend more time with these particular kids, really try to plant the seeds of Faith, so that when they are old enough to take themselves to Mass, they will.

No, I do not think you, as the teacher of the CCD class, should kick anyone out of class. I think this is something the pastor must decide.

But do you really think that these children have any hope of learning what you are teaching without the parents supporting it?

Again, it is the responsibility of the parents to teach the children. They are teaching their children much by their actions, I do not think you can change that and I will bet that you do not tell these children that what their parents are doing is wrong.

While I am not so sure that the children should be removed from the CCD class I will not second guess the priest in this. I am totally for not allowing these children to continue on from CCD to First Eucharist with out the parents’ meeting the very least of what a Catholic should do.

Again, I support this priest in what was done. This was not just dumped on eveyrone. There has been 18 months of warnings.

 

[YinYangMom]

Giannawannabe:

I understand your logic here. However, I doubt every one of the kids who do not attend Mass, due their parents’ neglect, make a choice not to attend Mass. What about them? Should these kids who want to attend Mass, know they SHOULD attend Mass be kicked out of CCD because their parents don’t bring them to Mass? I have taught kids in my class that know they SHOULD attend Mass, but their parents don’t bring them. Should I kick them out of my class? I tend to spend more time with these particular kids, really try to plant the seeds of Faith, so that when they are old enough to take themselves to Mass, they will.

Personally, I’m not so sold on preparing 2nd graders for the Eucharist anyway. I’m in my 40s and just recently (within the past decade) came to understand the reality of the Sacrament. Until then it was going through the motions.

My kids (16 and 15) get the concept, but you can tell they have yet to experience the reality of the transubstantiation. They treat the host with respect and reference, of course, but they have trouble at Eucharistic Adoration seeing the wafer as anything but a host which has been blessed - but is still a host. They know they’re supposed to see the living Christ but they can’t get their minds to wrap around that concept yet - and they’re in their teens.

How is a 2nd grader supposed to get it? How can a child expect to comprehend the reality that Christ is truly present in a wafer which feels like a wafer, tastes like a wafer and dissolves like a wafer, and wine which has no consistency of blood at all (which is what one would expect - at least something of thicker consistency).

But as to your question about what to do with those children in your class who KNOW they’re supposed to go to Mass but their parents don’t take them. Do they WANT to go to Mass? That’s the bigger question. If they want to go, then you can offer to take them yourself, or ask the parish secretary to help find a neighbor you can ask to take the child to Mass with them. You can ask to speak with the child’s parents and at least ask their permission to take the child yourself, or make arrangements for someone else in the parish to take the child. If they oppose, then their true colors are revealed. Otherwise, they would apologize for hindering their child’s development and offer to do better themselves by bringing the child to the next Mass. In the meantime, yes, planting the seeds is important, but more can be done, don’t you think? And if that means having the priest pull these children out after 18 months of trying to get their parents to cooperate, then so be it, no?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

YinYangMom:

Personally, I’m not so sold on preparing 2nd graders for the Eucharist anyway. I’m in my 40s and just recently (within the past decade) came to understand the reality of the Sacrament. Until then it was going through the motions.

This is part of the issue. This is why I like the way we Byzantines do things.

That is the administration of all the Mysteries of Initiation at the sametime. That is Baptism, Chrismation, and First Eucharist all at the sametime.

My pastor, and other priests I have spoken to, will not administer these Mysteries if the parents are not regular attendees of the weekly Divine Liturgy. If they are not my pastor requries that they come for a six month period before he will adminsiter these Mysteries.

 

[cathgal]

All I got to say to those parents are: This is Catholicism, not Protestant! So WORK for it and at it ! If God is a priority, there’s no such thing as too busy for HIM! Excuses and more excuses and you ask why there are so many non-practicing Catholics around!