Parents miss Mass, kids get ax

[misericordie]

ByzCath:

I thought about this some more last night and I must disagree with you. Even if the child can not walk to Mss on their own they may still be guilty of a mortal sin.

If they have been taught that missing Mass on Sundays and Holidays is a mortal sin and they choose not to go, even if their parents are already not going, then they are guilty.

With such a high regard you have for the Church here in America and such contempt you show to the bishops and priests in many of your replies here at the forum I am surprised that you would consider a vocation to the priesthood.

Well where have you been? It seems your opinion may lay in the category that all priests bishops and Cardinals are all just perfect. Well, that’s not what we have seen since 2002.
Anyway, I was in a situation where the great very orthodox pastor wanted to fix his parish and school by making it Catholic from what it had been, so called catholic. Only to later be shhh by the archbishop here because the cardinal was afraid of the catholic School Unions, and wanted nothing which would make it into the news. Well, because of those who wanted the schoool catholic, it did make it to the news anyway. So dear, I know from WITHIN that some dioceses let me say MOST here in the USA at present are a beuracracy!!! Thogh I do highly respect the following bishops and their great dioceses: These are men of principal and CATHOLIC conviction: Archbishop Chaput of Denver, Lincoln, Nebraska, and Archbishop Raymond Burke of Saint Louis. You see, NO I don’t have contempt for those higher up’s who stand up for Catholic teachings.

 

[YinYangMom]

quote=AlanFromWichita
Call me a genius if you want. Technically, having been tested at IQ of 136-140, I am in the “very superior” range of the scale, based on Wechsler Adult something or other.

Call me a madman if you want. Others have, and it has cost me a career, a bankruptcy case, and all involvement in diocesan committees I had chaired. At this current time, I have missed several doses of medication so I am just now coming down from that as I get caught up – this makes me talk more grandiouse and extreme, and hard to decide which side I’m on.

Call me overly emotional. This morning I thought I was so tough that I didn’t take anything seriously. I was quite happy and peaceful all day, and even worked on my chores. Now, tonight, for the first time in weeks I am crying and typing at the same time. Am I saying this for selfish effect? Maybe but that doesn’t make the tears less real.

Call me if you’re sad, and I will listen.

Call me your friend, and I will defend you.
Alan
[/quote]

You forgot ‘but don’t call me late for dinner.’

I think I’m most comfortable calling you ‘brother’. God has you here for a reason, as each of us, and we’re all family.

Thank you again, for taking the time to post all that…it gives clarity for me and familiarity. I have a friend who is bi-polar, and another who is manic depressive…and I know the literal ups and downs that come with the medication. I don’t know it enough to understand it, but enough to recognize when not to hold them to their words or actions - for they honestly, sometimes, don’t know what they’re doing or why…mostly why. It’s a particularly difficult cross to bear because blunt honesty does come with the territory. Fortunately, I’m used to it and I take bluntness rather well. God made me that way for a reason, I suppose, since I’ve managed to establish quite a few relationships with people who shoot from the hip.

I’ve heard at times people saying, I nag you because I love you or God sends you these trials because He loves you - and the joke line in response is usually, “well I wish you didn’t love me so much”… May knowing just how much God loves you bring you the daily peace, comfort and happiness you deserve, despite the ups and downs of your blessings.

In the meantime, I’ll be around in different threads looking forward to any insights you have to offer, and I look forward to jumping into the conversations from time to time.

Peace, brother.
YYM

 

[Lurch104]

ByzCath:

Wow you got a reply.

Now how about this.

Are there any people out there whose parents didn’t support the Church or live up to the teachings of the Church and the Church ignored this and acted like nothing was wrong?

Oh wait, most likely not as they are either Cafeteria Catholics or INO Catholics who do not follow what the Church teaches but rather follow what they feel the Church should teach, as they were taught by their parents and the wishy-washy people who should have been representing the Church but instead they didn’t want to offend any one.

Those that think the priest is wrong here remind of Reverend Lovejoy’s wife on the Simpsons, whenever somethiing goes wrong she yells, “But what about the children.”

I really hope that I am misreading your post. It seems to me that you are saying that I am a cafeteria Catholic because of my situation growing up? I am going to have to assume that I misread for now, giving you the benefit of the doubt until you say otherwise.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Lurch104:

I really hope that I am misreading your post. It seems to me that you are saying that I am a cafeteria Catholic because of my situation growing up? I am going to have to assume that I misread for now, giving you the benefit of the doubt until you say otherwise.

What I was saying is that while you may have grown up in such a situation and ended up a stong Catholic I believe that you are an exception. That the majority of those who grow up in such a way end up as either non-catholics or as cafeteria Catholics/INO Catholics.

 

[HagiaSophia]

Attending mass is no longer a priority for a majority of American Catholics.

"Staten Island priests who watch from the altar confirm the findings of studies showing that only 40 percent of Catholics go to mass every week… Attendance at a total of three Saturday night masses and six Sunday masses at St. Charles averages about 3,500 per week, out of an approximate parish enrollment of 10,000 people.

“Everyone is struggling to get people in,” the monsignor said. “We’ve got to do something.”

The Rev. Michael Cichon, pastor of St. Joseph-St. Thomas R.C. Parish in Pleasant Plains, chose a radical course of action when he notified parents of 300 students in the religious education program that they weren’t eligible for enrollment in the fall because they have been too often absent from the pews.

Father Cichon “did what a lot of us would like to do,” Father Bergin said. “Most of us understand where he’s coming from.”

Parishes track mass attendance for children in their religious education programs and elementary schools, but Father Cichon is perhaps the first to remove students from the program. He said he will not budge from his stance, despite an outcry from the parents involved.

Other parishes try different means to convince parents of the importance of bringing their children to church.

“We work on them and work on them and work on them,” said Monsignor John Servodidio, pastor of St. Joseph’s Church in Rosebank.

But a more effective method, he has found, is to work on the children themselves…"

silive.com/news/advance/index.ssf?/base/news/112013744189080.xml

 

[AlanFromWichita]

YinYangMom:

I have another engineering friend whom I love dearly but have a difficult time communicating with on certain issues because of the different way of viewing the world we have.

If you want a crash course on how engineers think, at least an engineer in a big company like I was at Boeing and at Bell Labs, and to a lesser degree a small office especially with a silly manager, read Dilbert as much as possible.

Also consider the second to last book that my late sainted father gave me, “A Dilbert Future” by Scott Adams. It was his own copy. He laughed hysterically over it, and gave it to me. (He was a chemical engineer but back from the days when engineers were promoted and not so much overrun by marketing and sales)

A Dilbert Future gives you two for one; a male/female point of view and an engineer/nonengineer point of view.

I can’t resist revealing one profound truth from that book

Adams says if you really want to predict the future, don’t base it on things that change, such as technology. Who would have thought 20 years ago what Internet would be today, and how it has influenced things. Such speculation is not as reliable as if you base your predictions on things that never change:

1. selfishness
2. *ness (a.k.a. sex drive)
3. laziness

He goes on to make predictions about things such as what would happen to the overall balance of power between men and women if engineers created a substitute for a woman?

I hear it about your friend. Yesterday I was explaining to my 14 year old daughter that whenever I hear the word “jerk” I think of the third derivative of position with respect to time. From my experience in control systems, I thrive on driving a car such that this quantity as well as any higher order derivatives are hardly perceivable by my passengers. She, of course, knowing some algebra but no Calculus, had no clue what that was about. She did know from physics, though, that distance divided by time is speed, and speed/time is acceleration and all. All I had to do was explain the theory of differential Calculus to her, and she understood what I meant then; we didn’t get into any actual problem solving because this was all while driving her to CYO and it was time for her to get out.

Derivative is just a fancy word for “how fast something is changing.” To an algebra student, it’s kind of like slope only a little cooler. Calculus doesn’t really have any new arithmetic to scare you with so they try to sound mysterious by coming up with fancy words and symbols that are not only greek, but sometimes totally heiroglyphic.

Without math, this can be expressed:

1. The faster you change your distance, the greater your speed.
2. The faster you increase your speed, the greater your accelerations.
3. The faster you change your acceleration, the greater the jerk.

If you were designing an automatic subway system like at airports, or an elevator speed control, you would want to know this stuff in and out. Luckily, this stuff is pretty obvious to the typical engineer/math nerd.

A farmer was going nuts trying to get his engineer friend to say anything absolute or committal. He drove the engineer by a field and said, “would you at least admit that is a cow?” The engineer looked and replied, “well, I will admit it does look like a cow – from this side.”

I figure take this engineering skepticism combined with bipolar and whoopee! Relatively absolute relativism! Something like that anyway.

Alan

 

[Brad]

AlanFromWichita:

Yes. Let’s pray they all do come back.

Alan

I think that is what all of us would want, most especially St. Paul. The disagreement is in method.

We live in an increasingly secular society. American church leadership has been stuck in pastoral mode when, what the church really needs is a return to the model of the Church just as it was established by Peter, Paul and the others. This is why I love the Acts of the Apostles - exactly the way it should be today. We still live at the same time period salvation history as they did. Many of the techniques used were bold, shocking, and required suffering. And the Church grew like dandelions in an untreated early springtime lawn.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

YinYangMom:

You forgot ‘but don’t call me late for dinner.’

That did occur to me.

It’s a particularly difficult cross to bear because blunt honesty does come with the territory. Fortunately, I’m used to it and I take bluntness rather well. God made me that way for a reason, I suppose, since I’ve managed to establish quite a few relationships with people who shoot from the hip.

The world normally tries to beat this sort of honesty into submission. I finally realized that the person who gives me a filtered scoop so as not to offend me, is not my friend. The world gets that backwards. They think friends are to tell you how great you are, I guess so they can build up your pride so the world can crush it again.

I’ve heard at times people saying, I nag you because I love you or God sends you these trials because He loves you - and the joke line in response is usually, “well I wish you didn’t love me so much”… May knowing just how much God loves you bring you the daily peace, comfort and happiness you deserve, despite the ups and downs of your blessings.

That’s why I’m trying to model love, communications, and all that. Actually after all this role playing my imagination bestowed on me, I try to figure out how to use my talents to help build the kingdom.

I look forward to jumping into the conversations from time to time.

Thank you for showing up as well. So far you have the most sensitive B.S.* detector I’ve noticed among posters, and that can be extremely helpful – like that double muder case, or whatever it turned out to be. You suspected and gave immediate warning for possible B.S. before anybody else, including the next door neighbors.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Brad:

I think that is what all of us would want, most especially St. Paul. The disagreement is in method.

Agreed.

 

[TPJCatholic]

Right now the Church is not saving many souls, it allows mortal sin to go unchecked and unchallenged on a regular basis. The world would be far better served to have a smaller and more disciplined Catholic Church.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Here’s where we stand, it seems like:

This priest took an action intended to help his parish in one way or another.

Some of us think he did something wise, others foolish, and others are some variant or combination. Most of us except maybe one or two posters so far think what the priest did was within his authority.

None of us thinks he was doing it out of meanness for the children, at least consciously. Some of us think his repressed frustration may influence his decision – and not everybody agree on whether that’s good or bad even if true!

Some who have had non-committed Catholics as parents have fallen away, others have not. Some of each had ties to the church such as through education, the others have not.

Does that about cover the range? I’m thinking if we get all the possibilities on the table then maybe we can focus our arguments better.

Alan

 

[TPJCatholic]

Alan,

Add one item, at least one of us thinks it is not a horrible thought to see the Church become smaller, but more disciplined.

 

[Writer]

NY Daily News
06-27-05
NANCY DILLON

The pastor of a Staten Island Catholic church is playing holy hardball - kicking hundreds of kids out of religious ed classes because their families aren’t showing up at Mass.

The Rev. Michael Cichon, pastor of St. Joseph/St. Thomas in Pleasant Plains, used each family’s bar-coded donation envelope to track attendance.

He’s tossed about 300 kids from classes and told them not to reapply until next April.

Without the classes, children cannot receive the sacraments, meaning some youngsters who thought they’d be making their First Communion next year will have to wait.

The suspensions, legal under church doctrine, were a shock to many parents with kids enrolled in the 1,400-child program, which caters to kids who don’t attend Catholic schools.

“It’s hurtful,” said Joseph LoPizzo, 38, whose 6-year-old son was booted. “I’ve been a parishioner at that church for 23 years - longer than he’s been the reverend.”

LoPizzo said he paid the $150 for his son’s Thursday afternoon classes last year, but his father-in-law’s illness hampered the family’s church attendance.

“I’ve just never heard of a church kicking you out,” complained Lisa Nicol, 36, who got a letter saying her 7-year-old twin daughters had been barred from classes. “They should be more welcoming and sensitive.”

The pastor said he suspended kids from the 2005-2006 after-school program because Mass is an “essential” component of the Catholic faith.

The affected families were attending church less than once a month, he said.

Cichon insisted that the move has nothing to do with the lack of a donation.

“There are many families who put absolutely nothing inside the envelopes they submit,” he said.

I’m confused… Why would you submit an envelope, if you weren’t giving. Is this done strictly for attendance monitoring, and, if so, is this kind of thing widespread? Seems kind of strange to me.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

There is one data point I can add.

My parents were “stealth” cafeteria Catholics.

They never contradicted any authority in front of me, including the Church. They did not even tell me until decades later after my father had died, how corrupt the finances were – and Dad knew because he was treasurer at one point.

Whenever we went on vacation, it was unheard of that we would do Whatever It Took to get to Mass.

Somehow, though, they never really seemed to understand or be really interested in learning Catholicism as we were in mathematics, science, language, etc. Just in the last few years I learned that my dad had one or two major issues which he kept to himself except my mom, and never got them resolved. He had been feeling like a phony for years, but stayed obedient to the Church to the extent that he had us kids fooled.

My point here is that my parents, by most definitions, are “cafeteria Catholics” but they did not slack on teaching us kids to obey the Church and getting us to Mass on time.

Therefore, “cafeteria Catholic” isn’t exactly the best way to classify our target. I do prefer “disobedient” or “non-participative” perhaps to describe these people. At my worst times when I thought the worst of the Church, we continued to get our children to church every weekend and I myself get to go twice at two different churches, so I get to hear two different sermons the whole time.

That brings up the issue that “disobedient” is implied in “cafeteria” Catholic in most verbal intercourse.

I think there are entire armies of ostensible lemmings in the church who don’t know or don’t care about what the Church teaches on a lot of things, and as far as anyone can tell they are fully participative. They never talk doctrine, but they do a great deal of work around the parish, from running the place to doing the manual labor. They don’t have a desire to think deeply about technical issues of the faith. If they use contraceptives, they keep their mouths shut. These people are considered good and faithful Catholics by any external measure, including envelope database information. These, IMO, are the indifferent which keep the structure of the Church going but do not drive it forward spiritually in terms of faith, but by their works. Therefore, we may say they do not have verbal assent so they do not have faith, but their faith shows through their works. Now, a person who expects the Church to change her teachings, that’s in a whole different category.

On the other hand, those Catholics who admit to having problems with Church teachings and are willing to discuss it, I think are valuable tools for orthodox Catholics to explore their mindsets and come up with strategy to use on the masses. This is one reason I think I am valuable. I also have thought once that my role in God’s kingdom was to be the thorn in Paul’s side.

Alan

 

[palmas85]

Area Catholic: "I think it’s a little harsh, especially on the kids. What lesson are the kids learning?

Maybe they are learning that the Catholic faith requires a few things and is not just a group hug, feel good, I love you, you love me new age faith. Catholicism requires a BIG committment from its’ members, something many seem to have forgotten. I thank God that there are still Priests that care this much about peoples souls, as opposed to ther feelings

 

[Nohome]

AlanFromWichita:

Therefore, “cafeteria Catholic” isn’t exactly the best way to classify our target. I do prefer “disobedient” or “non-participative” perhaps to describe these people. At my worst times when I thought the worst of the Church, we continued to get our children to church every weekend

Good point. I don’t even consider myself to be Catholic, but I get my kids to Mass each week. I’m sure I appear to be a “good Catholic” until I open my mouth. I was even nominated for Parish Council (that was a little embarrassing).

AlanFromWichita:

These, IMO, are the indifferent which keep the structure of the Church going but do not drive it forward spiritually in terms of faith, but by their works.

This reminds me of when the local RCC was building a church the people didn’t want with money they didn’t have to accomodate parish growth that didn’t exist. I went to the ground breaking to hold up a protest sign. When I got there, I counted exactly 25 people from a parish of thousands; the priest, 12 building committee members and the 12 spouses of the 12 building committee members. While my passion was on the wrong side of the argument, the indifference of everyone else was the real problem. I didn’t even bother getting out of my car.

AlanFromWichita:

On the other hand, those Catholics who admit to having problems with Church teachings and are willing to discuss it, I think are valuable tools for orthodox Catholics to explore their mindsets and come up with strategy to use on the masses.

This is a role I filled for years. The orthodox hated me (loudly), the dissenters praised me (quietly) and the vast majority couldn’t care less. I eventually grew weary of it all and quit.

Nohome

 

[YinYangMom]

TPJCatholic:

Alan,

Add one item, at least one of us thinks it is not a horrible thought to see the Church become smaller, but more disciplined.

Make that two

though I’m a bit torn on that…given that I turned out to be a so-so Catholic after having been raised a cradle Catholic with 12 years of catholic education, etc. But I lean toward removing the cancerous cells to save the body…even if that meant - me.

It was because of Relevant Radio, this forum, and the Catechism that I had to take a good look at myself in the mirror to realize I had been misled in my catechesis.

While I thought all along I was a good Catholic because I married a Catholic, we had our two children, we attended Mass weekly, attended Lenten services, prayed the rosary, participated in parish activities, knew without a doubt Divorce was not in our vocabulary, hubby and I were ‘off’ on some major concepts.

I was pro-choice.
I still lean toward civil unions for gays, though I’m more open to discussing the alternatives.
I was pro stem-cell research.

So, to many here, I would have been part of the problem and therefore would have been one turned away from the Church for my erroneous positions.

Since I was totally unaware my positions were erroneous all along, should I have been ‘punished’ for them? Especially since they were formed based on the teaching I received from the Church in the first place?

I think, yes. If the Church had written me letters showing me where my position was against Church teaching, and I continued to hold on to my own beliefs, then, yes. Allow me to take the consequences for my rejection. It is always my choice - once the truth is revealed - to accept or reject it. What I thought was Truth, turned out not to be…but once I saw the Truth as it really is, then I voluntarily chose to follow the Truth, and I am forever grateful for JPII for distributing the Truth through the Catechism, through the call for evangelization, for the Theology of the Body, and so on.

Right now, I think the other cafeteria Catholics and INO Catholics need a serious wake up call. They’ll whine and complain, become defensive and angry, but over time, they will miss the Mass - and if the rest of the faithful Catholics continue to embrace them, reach out to them, invite them to return by helping them to understand what it really means to be Catholic, then those who want to return will - and the Church will be so much stronger when that happens.

 

[YinYangMom]

AlanFromWichita:

Somehow, though, they never really seemed to understand or be really interested in learning Catholicism as we were in mathematics, science, language, etc. Just in the last few years I learned that my dad had one or two major issues which he kept to himself except my mom, and never got them resolved. He had been feeling like a phony for years, but stayed obedient to the Church to the extent that he had us kids fooled.

Alan,

You should keep in mind that for your parents there was no Catechism of the Catholic Church. Nor was it there when I was growing up. They and I relied on what the nuns and priests told us. If we had questions, we could ask them but the same nuns and priests instructing us erroneously would give answers to support their positions. There was no other reference source to check out whether or not what they were saying was true. So that generation and mine were fed the ‘obedience’ line over and over and over again. Obedience gets all faithful thru the worst temptations Satan can muster, so it wasn’t necessarily a bad thing they did to us.

Thanks to JPII we are now able to delve into Catholicism as we can mathematics, history, english, etc.

I don’t believe your parents, or I, for that matter, fall into the Cafeteria Catholic category. I think there’s another category which should reflect the poorly catechised…I just don’t know if anyone has coined a phrase for that yet.

But a Cafeteria Catholic, in my mind, is a disobedient Catholic. He/She willfully chooses to disregard Church teachings. They DO have access to, and know what the Church teaching is but they somehow believe they know better than the Church on certain matters and choose to disregard those teachings, while continue to consider themselves faithful Catholics in full communion with the church. So I don’t think disobedience is wrongfully implied for that category.

As for your Lemming observation, I think you hit it right on the nail. There are SOOOOO many active parishioners in my parish who outwardly appear to be faithful Catholics, but who do not engage in conversation about the Church. When they are drawn into a conversation it becomes evident they don’t even know the multitude of resources that are available to them. They don’t exhibit any desire to learn more. They seem comfortable in ‘doing what they can’ and ‘letting Rome do what it can’. They don’t get that we’re all one big family who share the same responsibilities.
Our priests offer various lecture series, prayer opportunities, bible studies and the same 8-10 people sign up and attend them. Masses are packed with people but a handful stay after for the monthly fellowship coffee/donut/book sale. Our lenten soup/lecture/stations series is growing, but we’re still under 50 people out of the entire parish. The eucharistic ministers, lectors, alterboys are conspicuously absent. It breaks my heart.

 

[YinYangMom]

Nohome:

Good point. I don’t even consider myself to be Catholic, but I get my kids to Mass each week. I’m sure I appear to be a “good Catholic” until I open my mouth. I was even nominated for Parish Council (that was a little embarrassing).

This reminds me of when the local RCC was building a church the people didn’t want with money they didn’t have to accomodate parish growth that didn’t exist. I went to the ground breaking to hold up a protest sign. When I got there, I counted exactly 25 people from a parish of thousands; the priest, 12 building committee members and the 12 spouses of the 12 building committee members. While my passion was on the wrong side of the argument, the indifference of everyone else was the real problem. I didn’t even bother getting out of my car.

This is a role I filled for years. The orthodox hated me (loudly), the dissenters praised me (quietly) and the vast majority couldn’t care less. I eventually grew weary of it all and quit.

Nohome

You are greatly missed.
Please come home.
We need you back.

YYM

 

[Nohome]

YinYangMom:

I don’t believe your parents, or I, for that matter, fall into the Cafeteria Catholic category. I think there’s another category which should reflect the poorly catechised…I just don’t know if anyone has coined a phrase for that yet.

I have heard (read) the term “generation L” or the “lost generation”. I’ve also been told that I was a “Kumbahyah Catholic”.

YinYangMom:

They seem comfortable in ‘doing what they can’ and 'letting Rome do what it can.

It has been my observation, in the bulk of the RCC, that the Clergy pretends to lead and the people pretend to follow.

YinYangMom:

It breaks my heart.

It broke mine.

Nohome