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YinYangMom
Guest
Gotta run for now, but these are well-posed questions I will think about while I’m running my errands. I hope to have some responses when I return.
Peace!
YYM
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Peace!
YYM
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YinYangMom
Guest
Oh, Alan, that post was directed to Other Eric, not you. He was the one who was buying the argument it was against the Code of Canon Law based on Aikins’ blog.I will. I don’t know about canon law so I can’t help in your argument, but here’s your break:
For my own purposes, I do not claim the pastor is acting outside of his authority.
Likewise I do not claim the pastor is anything but loving, patient, kind, and gentle in nature.
Likewise I do agree that the parents in these cases have demonstrated a pattern of failure to provide the minimum for their children.
I hope that helps.
Alan
I’m following your argument better with each of your posts…so I get already what you’re saying about the priest and the parents and the child…
still working on how best to handle the situation without orphaning the child…
that’s the real issue, for you, right?
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fix
Guest
The Church is not giving up on anyone. The children, and parents, are very welcome in the Church. This priest is stating what the requirements are to be ready for initiation into the sacraments. What you are asking is to lower the bar.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Thank you. I did realize that but I’m pretty weak against temptation to answer other people’s questions. I just thought you might like a few things designed to agree with both sides – or at least be palatable. If my “opponents” get weak, it’s no fun to spar anymore so I like to make sure to keep them fed and healthy.
Yes.
You just gave me an idea.
Recently I’ve come up with an engineering model of a miscommunication between people who supposedly are both good Catholics but with different views and background baggage.
We start with a message in our hearts: “let’s not leave the child orphans. That was not your intent I know, so how can you take that into account?”
Then it gets to the brain and the brain says, “hey, I’m defensive here” so it runs defensive routines to bring to mind applicable word and metaphor choices as possible message carriers. Then we mix in anxiety and physical muscle tension which change our tone of voice in speaking and even as we type we hear this in our minds. Suddenly before we know it we have “this person is telling me I’m attacking a priest without an awful good reason” and “you think you are a better Catholic than me” loaded in.
The words which actually get typed and appear on the screen and are whisked away across the planet then appear:
“I ca’nt believe you wud stand btween innocent children and Jesus.”
or maybe a little calmer with a face-saving bit of condescention, “with all intended charity, don’t you realize this makes you sound like the Church doesn’t care about her children?”
Then people from all over the world, orthodox, cafeteria, non-Catholic, patient, strict, liberal, Democratic, Republican, all read this message loaded with anger, dripping with vitriole.
They make of it what they will, by looking at the message and seeing the anger. That raises the shields and starts the phasors, as we frantically try to grasp how to deal with this emotional attack. We perform an instant background check on our own emotions, and see what baggage we come up with that this evil all reminds us of and by now we are not in a good situation at all.
So our heart hears this: “my opinion is better than yours.”
Then our heart says, “ouch. That hurt. They misunderstood my intentions and think I’m a bad person.” to itself, and after a brief calming down, it composes a reply “Did you just say you disagree with my application of Church teachings to this situation?”.
This reply, then, gets encoded with baggage on the way out.
Summary:
- We wish to send a message from heart to heart, so we trigger our language processor.
- The message gets wrapped in baggage and sent to the receiver.
- The receiver sees the baggage, and tries to cut through it according to its own personal baggage.
- the receiving heart hears any or all messages, then, distorted by both sets of baggage and any errors in the channel. (For example, a typo could be an error in the channel, or it could be a Freudian slip revealing information about your baggage.)
That’s why it takes a crook to know a crook…
Sorry I digress.
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Once fix isolated this section, I wanted to agree with him that this is a good argument. On the “priest was right” side I think this is the best evidence presented yet.
At some point one has to figure how to allocate whatever resources one has. Given a finite seed sowing capability, it is hard to argue against concentrating on areas that seem most fertile.
Then again, the longshots have the biggest prizes. Those who are forgiven the most are the ones who love the most.
What are you going to do? St. Francis Prayer I guess…
Alan
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Lurch104
Guest
I am one. My parents sent me to 12 years of Catholic school, but we rarely ever made it to Sunday mass. When I struck out on my own, I had that connection to the church that I wanted to strengthen. I now attend mass daily. The preists and nuns never gave up on me and my family and it paid off. I have resolved to do the same for the children in my CCD classroom.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Wow you got a reply.AlanFromWichita:
AlanI am one. My parents sent me to 12 years of Catholic school, but we rarely ever made it to Sunday mass. When I struck out on my own, I had that connection to the church that I wanted to strengthen. I now attend mass daily. The preists and nuns never gave up on me and my family and it paid off. I have resolved to do the same for the children in my CCD classroom.
Now how about this.
Are there any people out there whose parents didn’t support the Church or live up to the teachings of the Church and the Church ignored this and acted like nothing was wrong?
Oh wait, most likely not as they are either Cafeteria Catholics or INO Catholics who do not follow what the Church teaches but rather follow what they feel the Church should teach, as they were taught by their parents and the wishy-washy people who should have been representing the Church but instead they didn’t want to offend any one.
Those that think the priest is wrong here remind of Reverend Lovejoy’s wife on the Simpsons, whenever somethiing goes wrong she yells, “But what about the children.”
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Certainly. I didn’t think this was all hypothetical.
You are too kind. You act as if they actually care about what the Church should teach.
She probably means well, but she sounds like a bleeding heart liberal. I really do have to get caught up on Simpsons. It’s been years.
Alan
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Brad
Guest
I think you need a lifeline.
I know that you do not want to lessen the importance of the Mass. But the pastor is teaching these families the importance of the Mass by taking this action. Nothing else appears to be working. They don’t come to Mass and probably haven’t for quite some time and/or they treat it carelessly.
By taking any position against the pastor, you support the parent’s right to not take the Mass seriously and still receive benefit from the faithful Body of Christ.
The pastor is being charitable. He is letting them come back in
April. St. Paul said to shake the dust.
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Edwin1961
Guest
It’s a shame that I didn’t have this happen to me when I was growing up.
It was around 1975 when my mother stopped going to Mass. Thus we as kids, stopped too. It NEVER dawned on me to ask for a ride to chruch from a neighbor or a friend from high school.
Since I have returned to the Church, I have to play ‘catch-up’ to re-learn what I missed out of eariler.
It’s too bad we didn’t have priests like this one when Vatican II first started…where everyone didn’t knkow what to teach or do about the ‘traditional’ way of doing things back then.
It was around 1975 when my mother stopped going to Mass. Thus we as kids, stopped too. It NEVER dawned on me to ask for a ride to chruch from a neighbor or a friend from high school.
Since I have returned to the Church, I have to play ‘catch-up’ to re-learn what I missed out of eariler.
It’s too bad we didn’t have priests like this one when Vatican II first started…where everyone didn’t knkow what to teach or do about the ‘traditional’ way of doing things back then.
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TPJCatholic
Guest
I once read a survery that stated 75% of children who have a father that is active in the faith will go on to be active in the faith when they are adults. Conversely, 75% of the children who have fathers that are inactive in the faith grow-up to also be inactive in the faith.
Now that survey just underscores the importance of fathers–we can all imagine the profound impact of children who have a mother and a father who are inactive in the faith…kids in those families have close to no chance at all.
When 8th graders cannot tell you what confession is for, or what the Real Presence is, we have a very real problem.
This was exactly the right move!
Now that survey just underscores the importance of fathers–we can all imagine the profound impact of children who have a mother and a father who are inactive in the faith…kids in those families have close to no chance at all.
When 8th graders cannot tell you what confession is for, or what the Real Presence is, we have a very real problem.
This was exactly the right move!
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
The CA forums must be it because I always seem hooked to it.
Thank you.
This is no doubt the pastor’s intent, and it is quite possible some of the kids will learn that. Consider the kids, once removed from Catholic education have no adult influence other than the incompetent parents. It’s like the kid will have to judge between two options but now will hear only the anti-Catholic side at least until emancipated.
This sentence comes apart into several pieces. First is what “against the pastor” means. If you mean I am trying to thwart his authority I am not. If you mean I am trying to condemn him in any way as to his full rights to practice what the Church requires and allows him to do, then I am not. If you mean I think he’s a bad person, then please forgive my previous statements and I will work on that one. If you mean I think his plan is doomed to fail, then yes, that’s what I am implying.
Next is the assertion that support of the pastor’s plans as executed constitutes support of parents’ right not to take Mass seriously. By implication I may assume you assert, and I do not contest, that the pastor acted in such a way that is proper from the Church standpoint. I do contest that his actions are medicine whose negative effects may be more profound and ultimately grevious than its postive effects.
I’m sure he spent a great deal of time over the 18 months hoping to fix the Mass attendance problem and not have to make good on his threat.
Third, to the issue of receiving benefit, I believe that more contact, not less, is important especially in marginal cases. The full benefit of the Church can be received with full Communion with her. Staying connected in a peripheral way is far inferior but better than no contact at all, claim I.
Yes. Let’s pray they all do come back.
Alan
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YinYangMom
Guest
Good golly, Alan, where do you find the time between family, faith and CA posting - and why would you want to develop such a model???
The best I can figure from reading your digression is that I I’m not a crook because I can’t even imagine disecting a conversation like that.
To me, words are words. I use them to convey thoughts, opinions and ideas. If someone else uses them for other puposes with me I guess I wouldn’t get it because my mind just doesn’t work that way. I suppose if I really thought about it though, I’d understand better what you just posted but geez - what would be the point?
Plus I now have the impression that posting in threads for you is like a chess match or something - a form of entertainment - so I don’t even know whether considering your position is worth the effort. Are you presenting a valid argument, or just playing devil’s advocate to see how I and others respond so you can banter back to belittle what we’re saying. If that’s the case I don’t have time for such a conversation. I’m here to learn and to grow in my faith. Will continuing to read your posts help me do that or should I skim past them because I’m not a player?
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YinYangMom
Guest
What’s most interesting about your story is that you returned to the church despite your mother’s disregard for her faith obligations. This is why I’m not overly concerned or worried these 300 children will never be Catholic again. I mean, first of all, once baptized Catholic - always a Catholic, there’s no ‘do overs’ when it comes to that - whether they like it or not. Second, having been baptized and therefore having received the gift of the Holy Spirit these children are never abandoned - even if a priest or parent would do so. God has a way of keeping that seed alive in an open soul by sending so many people into the path of those people with opportunities to return to Him. I trust this will happen in this child’s case.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
It comes naturally to me. I have a master’s degree in electrical engineering, with quite a bit of emphasis in communication systems. When I was a senior engineer for Bell Labs (of the once great Lucent Technology, a.k.a. AT&T Western Electric, a.k.a. inventors of the transistor) I was privileged to work with some of the best designers on the planet. While in the supply line organization, among other jobs I worked “special projects” which meant that I walked into politically heated situations involving multiple work groups usually in different cities or countries, and helping them find a solution that is mutually delightful.
Anyway these designers are from all different cultures, and I have sat in on many multinational meetings and learned some strange things involving communications. For example, why were the people from the Netherlands always so upset with our plans, when they had participated in every conference call and agreed to our strategy? Hmmm? That was my assignment to go figure out – there were hurt feelings and actual tears shed over that.
The reason I model everything is that helps me use abstractions to apply lessons from one field of study to another. In other words, it works like a metaphor for me. Once I have a working model, then I can “test” that model in my mind or watch it predict others’ behavior or not.
Predicting behavior is very important to me, because I am overly dependent on people pretending they like me, even though I profess that my friends are the ones who tell me what’s wrong with me.
Therefore I look at the world as one giant formula to be understood and solved using various methods of dealing with both deterministic and random (name removed by moderator)uts and processes.
Sorry. I’m a little extreme these days because I have this delusion that we are right on the verge of being able to have a civil discussion on heartfelt disagreements, without the pressuppositions, innuendos both perceived and actual loaded into the discussion.
In essence, I’m trying to enable my dream of World Peace by figuring out how people communicate and how to work together for a common cause without being consumed by losing our peace over our differences.
It’s not important that you understand me, really. Of course it’s nice if you do, but whenever I digress like that I find other people seem to pick up on thought drifts I couldn’t really describe and help get them involved. Anyone who has nothing better to do than read all my posts should send me a PM; maybe you and I are on the same wavelength and can work together on this as an actual non-profit or for-profit venture.
I’m sorry you feel that way. I do have to back off once in a while and force myself to see it in a non-threatening way, and humor is one of the masks I use to cover it. Actually, I think the reason I’m bipolar is that I take things to the extreme. I’m either elated and controlling the world or I’m miserable and suicidal. I’m still learning how to control my emotions, and this forum is helping me and reportedly many others do that. I fully understand if you would prefer to put me on your “ignore” list, if I can’t stop making you feel that I’m trying to toy with your mind.
Most of the time, I forget who says what because I react to words and (in my mind) the attitude of the poster as determined by their word choice, more than names.
(continued)
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
(continued)
When I started on this forum, my natural passion for taking ideas to their extreme limit and for taking words very seriously, resulted in a lot of anger in my posts. It’s like 99% gone but as this thread shows it’s now done yet. I’m sorry for those who had to witness it, including you. I’m trying to learn to debate things I feel passionately about without expressing my extreme judgmental feelings that I still struggle with.
Call me a genius if you want. Technically, having been tested at IQ of 136-140, I am in the “very superior” range of the scale, based on Wechsler Adult something or other.
Call me a madman if you want. Others have, and it has cost me a career, a bankruptcy case, and all involvement in diocesan committees I had chaired. At this current time, I have missed several doses of medication so I am just now coming down from that as I get caught up – this makes me talk more grandiouse and extreme, and hard to decide which side I’m on.
Call me overly emotional. This morning I thought I was so tough that I didn’t take anything seriously. I was quite happy and peaceful all day, and even worked on my chores. Now, tonight, for the first time in weeks I am crying and typing at the same time. Am I saying this for selfish effect? Maybe but that doesn’t make the tears less real.
Call me if you’re sad, and I will listen.
Call me your friend, and I will defend you.
I’m sorry for the dramatics. That is how I am. Really. No joke. Iv’ve spent my life hiding it and now that drove me nuts I realized worldly solutions don’t work. so i found all this peace spiritually with catholic and noncatholic teahcing and whammo i feel better but i’m still a bit manic so i’m giong to post this typos and all because my hands are shaking like a leaf.
YinYangMom, the reason I was happy to see you join the conversation is precisely because I think you are sensitive enough to see that I am not trying to be vindictive or blaming, even though I look like it because I see a priest do something kind of like something that has hurt my friends before so I lash out like an angry animal.
My biggest problem, according to my mother, is that I’m too honest. I put my feelings right out front. I’m not good at being sarcastic because I have only recently learned to do that to mask uneasiness, so if I convey the wrong impression just yeall at me straight up and don’t play games wondering what I’m about.
I digress again.
Here I go I’ll get up again and put on my “tough as nails” mask or my “not serious” mask. They work the same way. Then go for clever witty summary that allows me to save face. No, this time let’s go straight sincerity. Breathe 1,2,3… Hmmm. Maybe a few smileys will help… OK, ready. Jury please ignore above remarks:
Dear YinYangMom,
I’m sorry for giving you the impression I don’t take this subject seriously. Actually I like to view a subject from many different angles, so as I jump around and appear to be, well, kind of schizo as another poster once said. If this confuses you, as always, please feel free to ask. You know I never miss a chance to answer an extra question or two. ( )
Sometimes I either am too verbose or too abstract, so I try not to be either. Maybe I just think too much. Maybe I just type too much, too. Hey, seems like I hear my mother calling…
Anyway, thanks for your help in this thread. IMO you helped reduce the adversarial atmosphere. You seem to have a knack for reading between the lines and getting to the real heart of what’s going on, and I for one feel blessed for it.
God bless you and yours, and I look forward to hearing more of your (name removed by moderator)ut!
Alan
You have to make that decision for yourself. Let me tell you this in all sincerity. I have gone to hell and back literally thousands of times, in my mind, in the last four years. I have honestly thought I was supposed to be God’s voice, Christ, the anti-Christ, the pope’s carpenter (after seeing the movie Joshua), satan, Judas, Peter, Paul, and quite a few others at different times.
When I started on this forum, my natural passion for taking ideas to their extreme limit and for taking words very seriously, resulted in a lot of anger in my posts. It’s like 99% gone but as this thread shows it’s now done yet. I’m sorry for those who had to witness it, including you. I’m trying to learn to debate things I feel passionately about without expressing my extreme judgmental feelings that I still struggle with.
Call me a genius if you want. Technically, having been tested at IQ of 136-140, I am in the “very superior” range of the scale, based on Wechsler Adult something or other.
Call me a madman if you want. Others have, and it has cost me a career, a bankruptcy case, and all involvement in diocesan committees I had chaired. At this current time, I have missed several doses of medication so I am just now coming down from that as I get caught up – this makes me talk more grandiouse and extreme, and hard to decide which side I’m on.
Call me overly emotional. This morning I thought I was so tough that I didn’t take anything seriously. I was quite happy and peaceful all day, and even worked on my chores. Now, tonight, for the first time in weeks I am crying and typing at the same time. Am I saying this for selfish effect? Maybe but that doesn’t make the tears less real.
Call me if you’re sad, and I will listen.
Call me your friend, and I will defend you.
I’m sorry for the dramatics. That is how I am. Really. No joke. Iv’ve spent my life hiding it and now that drove me nuts I realized worldly solutions don’t work. so i found all this peace spiritually with catholic and noncatholic teahcing and whammo i feel better but i’m still a bit manic so i’m giong to post this typos and all because my hands are shaking like a leaf.
YinYangMom, the reason I was happy to see you join the conversation is precisely because I think you are sensitive enough to see that I am not trying to be vindictive or blaming, even though I look like it because I see a priest do something kind of like something that has hurt my friends before so I lash out like an angry animal.
My biggest problem, according to my mother, is that I’m too honest. I put my feelings right out front. I’m not good at being sarcastic because I have only recently learned to do that to mask uneasiness, so if I convey the wrong impression just yeall at me straight up and don’t play games wondering what I’m about.
I digress again.
Here I go I’ll get up again and put on my “tough as nails” mask or my “not serious” mask. They work the same way. Then go for clever witty summary that allows me to save face. No, this time let’s go straight sincerity. Breathe 1,2,3… Hmmm. Maybe a few smileys will help… OK, ready. Jury please ignore above remarks:
Dear YinYangMom,
I’m sorry for giving you the impression I don’t take this subject seriously. Actually I like to view a subject from many different angles, so as I jump around and appear to be, well, kind of schizo as another poster once said. If this confuses you, as always, please feel free to ask. You know I never miss a chance to answer an extra question or two. (
)Sometimes I either am too verbose or too abstract, so I try not to be either. Maybe I just think too much. Maybe I just type too much, too. Hey, seems like I hear my mother calling…
Anyway, thanks for your help in this thread. IMO you helped reduce the adversarial atmosphere. You seem to have a knack for reading between the lines and getting to the real heart of what’s going on, and I for one feel blessed for it.
God bless you and yours, and I look forward to hearing more of your (name removed by moderator)ut!
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Right. For better or worse, what’s done is done. We have to let that go, but I do think some long range planning is still in order.
Alan
With that, Lord, I give you all my passion for this topic. I’m tired of reading posts from an hour ago and not knowing how I managed to say a particular thing because I was hitting on one end of a mood swing. I am driving away people who otherwise look forward to seeing it. Please take my passion and my mood swings and keep showing me how to act, with the help of all these wonderful people and your Holy Church. If I get worked up again, please help me find faith to rest in confidence that Your will be done and let you handle whether I come up with the “magic silver bullet” or not in this lifetime. Please also take away my pride which feels like it’s thrilling me one moment and killing me at another. Also please take away my craving for public pity. Amen.
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Edwin1961
Guest
Alan,
Praise God everyday for your gift of analyzing situations. It’s your talent that you are using for the betterment of the Kingdom!
Praise God everyday for your gift of analyzing situations. It’s your talent that you are using for the betterment of the Kingdom!
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Thank you for the kind words. I have some pretty grand delusions about what the Holy Spirit might be using me to do, but I’ve played so many roles I quit trying to discover any particular identity or “specialty” for myself.
Several times I’ve been Adam, coming up with some rather “unique” ways of summarizing what really happened in the garden, other times I thought I was like that anti-Christ which would be like the anti-second Adam, and that when Christ came the third time He would then control both the alpha and the omega, and in the middle He and I split responsibility for the eternal and temporal, respectively. Real Life is just so much more exciting than the movies, and I sense all the tension and wonder. That said, I thought “A Beautiful Mind” was a wonderful movie.
There is a support group for those like me, it is the Bipolar Club, right here on CA Forums. The thread has helped some of us come out of the closet and minister to each other. I’ll try to unleash some of the more nutso stuff in there.
BTW, anybody here dabble in game theory, as in the Nash equilibrium and the prisoner’s dilemma? I always wanted to study that, and started reading on it a bit but lost the books. Please start a thread, PM me, or continue to take this thread sideways if you have any comments.
See how I’m drifting topics? If I have a cause at any given moment I’m as focused as an attack dog, but otherwise I let myself go completely peripheral it seems, and any little thing can distract me. Like I’m just as likely as my 9 year old to stop and watch a butterfly as her. I figure I’m paying for this show with my mortal life, I might as well enjoy it. If I had more time I’d go back and try to make this coherent. Since I have to go quickly I normally will either take a quick look at the post, dismiss it as rampling, or just post as is. I guess if you are reading this you’ll know which I chose.
Alan
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YinYangMom
Guest
How absolutely fascinating. I appreciate the time you took to explain that to me. It really helps. I have no need to ignore your posts in the future, and for that, I am relieved.
I have another engineering friend whom I love dearly but have a difficult time communicating with on certain issues because of the different way of viewing the world we have. He explained to me once that when we drive down a city street and look around at the buildings I see shapes, textures, colors, size, asthetic details…he sees mathematical formulas representing physics, geometry and all that. He can’t see the same building the way I do so we can’t usually get into a discussion about the pros/cons of it. Abstract things we can talk about. Concrete, not as well…it takes a lot of patience and explaining on both our parts.
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