Parishioners billed $72,000 for TLM (not a joke)

[JReducation]

I have a question about another point made here. Whats wrong with fomal latin examinations? Shouldnt the priest know latin before he gives a mass in latin? I support TLM but I want to know the priest is actually saying whats he suppose to say and not langlish and that he understands it. Just curious of what reason people would be against it.

Any student of language undergoes a formal examination in the language. When I studied theology I majored in Mystical Theology. I had to learn Latin, Greek, French and Spanish. We had formal examinations in each course. It’s part of the degree program.

Now, if you’re asking about training priests to celebrate the Tridentine Mass, they obviously have to learn how to celebrate it. We have many priests who were born in the 1960s or late 50s. They don’t speak Latin or have ever experienced the Tridentine form.

What is being required is that they learn the form and that they learn the prayers and their translation into English. They are not being asked to learn the Latin language so as to read the ancient texts, because it’s not necessary. It’s enough if they can read the prayers correctly and know what each prayer means.

If you require that they take an actual course in the Latin language, that would take too long. Our language courses took two years. But we were expected to read texts in Latin, Greek, French and Spanish and interpret them, not just translate. Interpretation is a higher order languagae skill, because it requires that you find the best way of saying it in English.

This is not necessary for celebrating the mass in Latin. They do not have to interpret. They just have to know what it means. It doesn’t matter if they translate it very literally, they’re not making comments.

Nonetheless, this is why some dioceses and religious are not ready to do this. They can’t drop everything to train in the Tridentine form. So it’s going to be a slow process, a few priests at a time.

On that subject, I visited with a friar of an exempt religious order this morning. He explained that another problem they are facing is that they use their own sacramentary and lectionary. They have to wait until their sacramentary is reformatted in the Tridentine form. They do not use the same sacramentary as the universal church does. This takes time, money and scholars.

JR

 

[Auntie_M]

]

I have no problem whatsoever with those who attend the TLM to have to contribute to its support. I don’t believe there is any “traditionalist” who would disagree.

I find two things troubling with this situation:

1. The arbitrary amount of $72,000
2. The chaplaincy itself

The arbitrary amount of $72,000. How did the bishop arrive at this figure? Why $72,000? Will this be enough? Is it too much?

The real question in my mind is what happens when the $72,000 is raised. Will the bishop decide it’s not enough and raise his price next year? I used to work for an organization that promotes the Tridentine Mass. This is an all too common situation. The bishop agrees to a Tridentine Mass but does everything he can to sabotage it. This sounds like the bishop is throwing an obstacle in the way. He can no longer suppress the Tridentine Mass, thanks to the motu proprio, so he does something else. Maybe next year it goes up to $90,000. Then it goes up to over $100,000. Keep raising the price until it becomes too expensive and then claim not enough people want the Tridentine Mass.

2. The chaplaincy itself. Pope Benedict XVI issued the motu proprioto not only promote the use of the Tridentine Mass, but also to put it on equal footing with the Novus Ordo. He clearly states there are two forms to the Latin rite. This chaplaincy treats those who want the Tridentine Mass as second class citizens. The bishop is saying we’re going to gather together all those Catholics still living in the 15th century and put them all in one place. I can’t imagine the bishop doing this for a Spanish Mass, a Polish Mass, or any other language. I can’t even imagine the bishop doing this for a charismatic Mass. Only the Tridentine Mass gets held in contempt.

Please don’t use the excuse that it’s the “extraordinary form” and the a Novus Ordo Mass in a language other than English is the “ordinary form.” Pope Benedict XVI is clear that we have two equal forms of Mass in the Latin rite.

What is even more disturbing are the Catholics on this board who are in favor of these obstacles to the Tridentine Mass. These are the ones who always tell the “traditionalists” to be obedient to the Holy Father. Yet they aren’t obedient to him when it comes to the motu proprio. They say they’re in favor of the Tridentine Mass but turn around and denigrate it and those who want it. They turn a deaf ear to the Holy Father when he says the Tridentine Mass is equal to the Novus Ordo. They hate the Tridentine Mass so it’s perfectly acceptable to them to disobey the Holy Father.

I find it hypocritical of those who support the bishop creating a chaplaincy for the Tridentine Mass and charging an arbitrary amount for it. They would be screaming discrimination if the bishop did the same thing for the Spanish Mass community. They would say how wrong it is for the bishop to treat Spanish speaking Catholics as second class citizens. Somehow, when it comes to the Tridentine Mass, Catholics who speak out against being treated as second class citizens are told to shut up, pay up, and obey the bishop by these people.

I see discrimination and disobedience being practiced by Catholics but it’s not the “traditionalists” who are practicing it.

Dear Swiss Guard, It seems to me (as I have seen it before) that “some” traditionlist are very sensitive, too much so. You all have the “them against us” mentality which is very popular with the trads. I really don’t think ANYONE is labeling you as a second class citizens. But I have read alot of website by these “groups” and most are very hostile, verbably attacking anyone who is “not of them”. This is causing the “separation” that we see today. If you are a true Catholic, you would not be attacking others the way you are. If you were to really hear yourselves, you would agree it is NOT the NO attacking the trads, it’s the other way around. Read alot of their websites and you will find that out too.

 

[Auntie_M]

I am very sorry for the trads. They have fought to get “their” mass back, (as they say their mass) but are still complaining. I am afraid that these trads will not even be satisfied with a completely free mass, where you didn’t pay thithes at all. I 'm sorry but all this confusion has reminded me of who the father of confusion is. It is just another “attempt” of the evil one to tear the TRUE church down. And, unfortunately, even our brothers and sisters are helping him do just that.

 

[Auntie_M]

QUOTE=agr4028;3539560]Let’s be honest here. ANY perceived impediment to implementation of a TLM anywhere is going to be seen as confrontational or obstructive on the part of the Church by the TLM crowd, from what I read here.

Oh, thank you Lord, another has Seen the Light>>>>>>>>>>sorry for the sarcasism but I have really gotten very tired of the trads complaints as alot of others have also.

 

[pnewton]

FYI - We are not supposed to be using terms like “trad” here, per the forum rules. It can be considered an insult by some.

 

[Auntie_M]

Of course its

an impediment and it was done to kill the TLM in its tracks. It was apporved by the ultrasecret NCOBCTKTTM(National Council of Bishops Committe to Kill the Tridentine Mass).

 

[Auntie_M]

I know some SSPX folks, and I would never describe them that way. I don’t know any of their priests, though, and perhaps that could be descriptive of them. But the regular parishioners? None that I know.

I still think it’s wrong to sort the TLM people out and say “well, you’re kind of like renting the parish hall out for a wedding”. These people are already members of the diocese, and presumably contribute. They might do a lot better than that if they are treated right.

I might have a few details wrong on the following, but I believe they’re basically true.

A very run-down parish in Kansas City was more or less turned over to the TLM folks. It was also in debt. It would have been closed without them. They fixed the church building (stunningly beautiful. An Italianate, almost roccoco confection.), paid off the debt, made a deal with local hotels to run a limousine from the hotels to the church on Sunday so travelers could go to Mass. Doubtless those grateful folks drop something into the plate. They ended up with a million dollar surplus and a concert-quality choir. When Bp Finn was appointed, he asked them to move to another wonderful but rundown church downtown. That’s where they are now, choir and all, and Bp Finn, personally, is the pastor of that extraordinary parish. My understanding is that they’re raising the money to fix that church building and are working on it.

To my way of thinking, those folks are a major asset to the diocese. I’ll bet Bp Finn had a lot of talking to do to induce them to start over after all the work they did and all the money they contributed. But they did it. People like that should not be discouraged. I don’t know very many TLM people, but in KC, at least, they proved their worth.

I agree with you on the parishioners, I also have met some and gone to a few masses with them, they are very earnest. But unfortunately they are being led astray and really do not realize it. When a priest will “preach” rebellion, (quote"We have the Vatican on the run!") from the pulpit, that is not a man of God in my book. And when a “society” of any kind has to get their members to take a “VOW” to uphold them, (and if they break that vow, they are told they would go straight to hell) there is definitely something wrong. READ their websites, you will see and feel “hate”. Please people, there are some very good TLM’s that ARE in communion with Rome, go there. The others, I hate to say, has all the definitions of being a cult.

 

[Auntie_M]

QUOTE=agr4028;3544657]Again…300 people, five bucks a week. What’s the big deal?

If neither can be mustered, the obviously the “demand” isn’t there.

Hooray for you, they only need 197 people a day to give a dollar a day ($7.00 a week) to come up with their expenses. 72,000 divided by 52 weeks = $1384.62 a week…divided by 7 days a week= $197.80 per day. You only need 198 people to give a dollar a day. $30.00 a month… Bet you spend that much on junk food.

 

[Brenda_V]

estesbob;3541287:

Of course its an impediment and it was done to kill the TLM in its tracks. It was apporved by the ultrasecret NCOBCTKTTM(National Council of Bishops Committe to Kill the Tridentine Mass).

THE WHAT???paranoia has finally gotten the best of them.

Auntie M. that was sarcasm at its best. Estesbob is the King of sarcasm .

Brenda V.

 

[Auntie_M]

FYI - We are not supposed to be using terms like “trad” here, per the forum rules. It can be considered an insult by some.

Oh, so sorry, I really didn’t want to offend you with the “trad”, just saving a little typing space. The website you have on your post is where you can buy the 1962 Traditional Missal, right? Is that a division of the Angelus Press? Most of these are linked in some ways. I think you can buy it cheaper from them.

 

[Auntie_M]

Auntie M. that was sarcasm at its best. Estesbob is the King of sarcasm .

Brenda V.

Sooo Sorry, I just have NEVER heard of the NCOBCTKTTM before. Didn’t you think the same thing when you first heard it. It does seem that this whole TLM thing is just getting way too out of hand. I don’t know who Estesbob is but, frankly, he does bring out some very good points.

 

[Spiller]

Swiss Guard:

Originally Posted by Swiss Guard View Post
I have no problem whatsoever with those who attend the TLM to have to contribute to its support. I don’t believe there is any “traditionalist” who would disagree.

I find two things troubling with this situation:

1. The arbitrary amount of $72,000
2. The chaplaincy itself

The arbitrary amount of $72,000. How did the bishop arrive at this figure? Why $72,000? Will this be enough? Is it too much?

What makes you think the $72K is “arbitrary?” Sounds like a bargain to me. I could take 5 minutes to lay-out a spreadsheet for their annual budget and I could certainly burn more than $72K. You have a question about it? Ask the chancery for the back-up – just don’t suggest their budget is “arbitrary.”
Swiss Guard:

The real question in my mind is what happens when the $72,000 is raised. Will the bishop decide it’s not enough and raise his price next year? I used to work for an organization that promotes the Tridentine Mass. This is an all too common situation. The bishop agrees to a Tridentine Mass but does everything he can to sabotage it. This sounds like the bishop is throwing an obstacle in the way. He can no longer suppress the Tridentine Mass, thanks to the motu proprio, so he does something else. Maybe next year it goes up to $90,000. Then it goes up to over $100,000. Keep raising the price until it becomes too expensive and then claim not enough people want the Tridentine Mass.

Just a bunch of negative malarkey. You can worry about any hypothetical you want, but it’s still nothing more than wasted energy. Worse, so far you seem to be trying to suggest we should not believe the bishop. ODD to say the least.
Swiss Guard:

1. The chaplaincy itself. Pope Benedict XVI issued the motu proprioto not only promote the use of the Tridentine Mass, but also to put it on equal footing with the Novus Ordo. He clearly states there are two forms to the Latin rite. This chaplaincy treats those who want the Tridentine Mass as second class citizens. The bishop is saying we’re going to gather together all those Catholics still living in the 15th century and put them all in one place. I can’t imagine the bishop doing this for a Spanish Mass, a Polish Mass, or any other language. I can’t even imagine the bishop doing this for a charismatic Mass. Only the Tridentine Mass gets held in contempt.

More malarkey.
Swiss Guard:

Please don’t use the excuse that it’s the “extraordinary form” and the a Novus Ordo Mass in a language other than English is the “ordinary form.” Pope Benedict XVI is clear that we have two equal forms of Mass in the Latin rite.

See above.
Swiss Guard:

What is even more disturbing are the Catholics on this board who are in favor of these obstacles to the Tridentine Mass. These are the ones who always tell the “traditionalists” to be obedient to the Holy Father. Yet they aren’t obedient to him when it comes to the motu proprio. They say they’re in favor of the Tridentine Mass but turn around and denigrate it and those who want it. They turn a deaf ear to the Holy Father when he says the Tridentine Mass is equal to the Novus Ordo. They hate the Tridentine Mass so it’s perfectly acceptable to them to disobey the Holy Father.

I’ll ask for the 4th or 5th time. Who should pay for the EF if not those making use of it? It’s not free.
Swiss Guard:

I find it hypocritical of those who support the bishop creating a chaplaincy for the Tridentine Mass and charging an arbitrary amount for it. They would be screaming discrimination if the bishop did the same thing for the Spanish Mass community. They would say how wrong it is for the bishop to treat Spanish speaking Catholics as second class citizens. Somehow, when it comes to the Tridentine Mass, Catholics who speak out against being treated as second class citizens are told to shut up, pay up, and obey the bishop by these people.

Nothing “arbitrary” about the amount – except maybe in your mind. Spanish-speakers pay their own way too. Do you feel they should pay for your EF as well?
Swiss Guard:

I see discrimination and disobedience being practiced by Catholics but it’s not the “traditionalists” who are practicing it.

Your comments would suggest otherwise.

 

[Brenda_V]

Sooo Sorry, I just have NEVER heard of the NCOBCTKTTM before. Didn’t you think the same thing when you first heard it. It does seem that this whole TLM thing is just getting way too out of hand. I don’t know who Estesbob is but, frankly, he does bring out some very good points.

You are new here so you are excused in not knowing. You will get to know who uses sarcasm and who doesn’t in time. Yes, when I first read estesbobs post on the NCOBCTKTTM I had to look again and then I had a really good laugh. This kind of goes with your thoughts in one of your earlier posts about the “us against them” attitude that comes out sometimes. estes just used humor to get it across (with a straight face no less, he does forget to put a smiley face to indicate sarcasm thus catching unsuspecting new posters like you).

Brenda V.

 

[JReducation]

Of course its an impediment and it was done to kill the TLM in its tracks. It was apporved by the ultrasecret NCOBCTKTTM(National Council of Bishops Committe to Kill the Tridentine Mass).

Why are we seeing conspiracies everywhere? This is not healthy spirituality. I’m sorry. I have a hard time subscribing to any group that lives in fear of conspiracies and cloak and dagger ecclesiiology.

That is sacry.

JR :

 

[agr4028]

Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you

 

[KathleenElsie]

I am very sorry for the trads. They have fought to get “their” mass back, (as they say their mass) but are still complaining. I am afraid that these trads will not even be satisfied with a completely free mass, where you didn’t pay thithes at all. I 'm sorry but all this confusion has reminded me of who the father of confusion is. It is just another “attempt” of the evil one to tear the TRUE church down. And, unfortunately, even our brothers and sisters are helping him do just that.

I am not complaining. I just have said that we would be paying twice for a short while. If our Bishop gave us the opportunity to have a parish of our own with a community attached to it I would be very willing to pay just as I pay now for our local parish. It would sadden me to have to mover to another parish but if it was that or only the OF being offered then I would move.

Our Bishop has seemed to place many road blocks and refused to even support the few priests that are willing to celebrate the EF (yes there are some good reasons and also IMHO some very poor ones). The price stated would be small yes but it would place a burden on my family till we only had one parish and the diocese to help support.

 

[Spiller]

I am not complaining. I just have said that we would be paying twice for a short while. If our Bishop gave us the opportunity to have a parish of our own with a community attached to it I would be very willing to pay just as I pay now for our local parish. It would sadden me to have to mover to another parish but if it was that or only the OF being offered then I would move.

Our Bishop has seemed to place many road blocks and refused to even support the few priests that are willing to celebrate the EF (yes there are some good reasons and also IMHO some very poor ones). The price stated would be small yes but it would place a burden on my family till we only had one parish and the diocese to help support.

You would not be paying twice. You would be pre-paying some of the fees for the EF.

The bishop is trying to create a community with this chaplaincy. Sadly, more than a few EF Masses will likely be discontinued in some places because of low attendance and limited resources.

 

[universalindult]

This comment was posted on the original AQ thread:

Petertherock:

The TLM at the Portland Cathedral is my Mass. When I brought this letter home to my parents (they don’t go to the TLM) their first reaction and it’s the same reaction they continue to have is this is Simony and the Bishop should either change the wording of this letter or resign or be removed from office.

This is my problem with the whole thing…Another parish in Portland has a Spanish Mass, the people that attend this Mass are not told that they must come up with X amount of money each year for them to continue this service. The Basilica in Lewiston has a French Mass, the people that attend the French Mass are not told that they need to come up with X amount of money to continue this Mass.

The TLM has been going on for many years in Portland. This is not a new thing. We had a priest that was the Pastor at the cathedral who said the TLM for many years and the Bishop reassigned him. Now this priest may have had family issues and this may have been why he was reassigned. But as much as I love Msgr. Paul and Fr. Keven they cannot and do not say the TLM. I think the Bishop had an obligation to appoint a pastor of the Cathedral who could say the TLM. If none was available then he should have sent someone to training. The Bishop requires all seminarians to take French so why can’t he require them to learn the TLM also?

It is true that attendence is low at this Mass. The collections each week run about $700-$800 but the collections at the Sunday 5PM NO Mass only run about $900 and no one says they need to fork over more money.

Another question I have is for the past several years we have had the TLM where have our weekly collections been going? Has the Bishop been taking it for the Cathedral? If this is so I am sure we have put up more than the $18,000 for the downpayment and the Bishop has an obligation to get us a priest.

Why do we need a seperate chaplaincy? Why can’t we have a diocesan priest say the TLM? I am all for supporting our priests through our weekly collections as we must all do under penalty of sin but I do have a problem with Simony.

 

[Spiller]

INTERESTING how I keep seeing the EF compared to the OF in Spanish on this thread. Not English, but Spanish! Why Spanish? Do I smell a little bigotry here?

Comparing the EF to the OF in Spanish if ridiculous for a number of reasons. In fact, until your primary language is Latin, and you have great difficulty in understanding English, I’ll just ignore your corrosive (and utterly ridiculous) remarks…

The charge of “simony” is beyond comment…

 

[childofmary1143]

INTERESTING how I keep seeing the EF compared to the OF in Spanish on this thread. Not English, but Spanish! Why Spanish? Do I smell a little bigotry here?

Comparing the EF to the OF in Spanish if ridiculous for a number of reasons. In fact, until your primary language is Latin, and you have great difficulty in understanding English, I’ll just ignore your corrosive (and utterly ridiculous) remarks…

The charge of “simony” is beyond comment…

Spanish is being compared to the EF because the EF is in Latin and Latin is a language that isn’t spoken by most Americans. While Spanish is spoken by more Americans than certainly Latin, it certainly isn’t the main language in the USA.

I would like to ask another question: Does this diocese have a history of STRONG support for the EF prior to the Motu Proprio for the Bishop to think that MULTIPLE parishes can support this? It just seems that the Bishop is asking those who support the EF to run before they can walk so to speak.