Part 2: Vocations to love & relationship for faithful LGBT Christians

[Thorolfr]

The issue is to not fall prey to the lies of the LGBT movement which only ends up imprisoning people’s mindset. We see this happen when people start defining themselves by LGBT-based theology. Instead of staying who you are, let grace transform you; though it is not possible without faith.

What exactly is “LGBT-based theology”? I’m “gay” but to me that just means that the people I’m sexually attracted to are always men. That’s hardly enough to be a “theology”. And you keep trotting Mr. Sciambra out as if his experiences as a gay man are somehow representative of those of all gay men. They aren’t.

 

[Gab123]

Are you a proponent of conversion therapy?

I’m talking about a transformative conversion to Christ, not merely following religious rules while remaining the exact same self. Listen to the link I posted earlier…

 

[help1]

Sodomy does appear to be a sin, if that’s what’s being discussed here…however that’s just sodomy. I mean, you could even argue you could still have gay couples as long as they’re celibate.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

How is this

I’m talking about a transformative conversion to Christ, not merely following religious rules while remaining the exact same self. Listen to the link I posted earlier

a reply

Are you a proponent of conversion therapy?

to this?

You consistantly do this; reply to a post with a non-answer and/or a redirection to your own agenda.

It’s like you are working from a script like a telemarketer.

 

[DarkLight]

I’m not saying it’s not true, so much as it’s not helpful in this context.

We all got all the stuff about how we need to die to self years ago. But for most of us it’s not just a matter of knowing that. It’s a long and difficult process and we don’t always know what exactly that looks like or what steps or helpful or anything like that. And a lot of people seem to be rather confused as to how a lay single even could do that - after all, when you go home, it’s not like you’ve even got someone else around.

 

[Thorolfr]

It’s probably better for everyone to focus on their own dying and not worry about other people’s dying.

 

[Gab123]

It’s like you are working from a script like a telemarketer.

My script is the Bible and the writings of the Church…
It’s really all about foundations. if you build your life upon LGBT ideology, you will see the world through LGBT-colored glasses. that’s all I’m saying. One cannot serve two masters…

 

[theCardinalbird]

Hi Gab, I’ve been following this thread for a while. You probably know that I experience SSA and so I’ll ask this question. What effective means can a person like myself who experiences SSA live the the Gospel while having some means of of community and no feeling of alienation?

 

[Thorolfr]

Bruised_Reed:

It’s like you are working from a script like a telemarketer.

if you build your life upon LGBT ideology, you will see the world through LGBT-colored glasses. that’s all I’m saying. One cannot serve two masters…

You still haven’t explained what “LGBT ideology” is. It seems like a rather vague term.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

My script is the Bible and the writings of the Church…
It’s really all about foundations.

Nope. You’re not quoting from them. It’s not even a poor paraphrase.

if you build your life upon LGBT ideology, you will see the world through LGBT-colored glasses

Where’s that in scripture or the CCC?

One cannot serve two masters…

And on this thread the OP laid it out that it assumes chastity on the the part of the LGBT person. Only you think that acknowledging this identity is a master of some kind. Us cis-get people do this is subtle and obvious ways daily. It’s our reality just as being LGBT is their’s. I think it helps them find their tribe and that is important especially if it’s a marginalized group. The Catholic church doesn’t ask them to deny this; in fact it they didn’t acknowledge this how could they join and wholeheartedly participate in Courage.

Does the Courage apostolate meet your approval?

 

[Gingersnaps4]

What about getting involved in Courage and meeting other fellow gay Catholics that wish to live a Christian life, and form close friendships with them? In my opinion there’s no one that will be able to relate to you better and looking to form close friendships. And you wouldn’t have to worry about secrets or judgement. I also liked your idea of possibly moving in with family. Lacking that you could still develop a close relationship with family, especially nieces and nephews or other young relatives if there are any, as close relationships with young people can be wonderful. This sounds so cliche and I don’t mean it to be, but getting a dog can be very emotionally rewarding for anyone living alone. That isn’t addressing your need for human relationships of course but the dog would certainly help occupy your time when you are at home and help feelings of loneliness. You could also become very involved in your parish. My husband and I I know and are friends with a few single males and females at church and they are very nice people and we would never overly pry into their personal life. One man in particular that I know more than the others is a very involved member of the knights of Columbus and keeps very busy and has many friends through that. I hope that this helps in some way.

 

[BlueMaxx]

Hi Gab, I’ve been following this thread for a while. You probably know that I experience SSA and so I’ll ask this question. What effective means can a person like myself who experiences SSA live the the Gospel while having some means of of community and no feeling of alienation?

It sounds like a lot of “SSA” folks put the alienation on themselves…

This may sound harsh but here goes, put on your big boy pants…

Quite wearing your “SSA” label on your sleeve…

Do you really think people who have no idea who you are when they first see you think

“Oh, there is one of those “SSA” folks we here so much about, quick, to the shunning!”

If you want fellowship then go get it!
Go to an old folks home and serve the poor and needy, go out and live the life of Christ as we are suppose to…go to the homeless shelter…volunteer for cleaning crew or cook crew for the church socials…go up and have a friendly conversation with just about anyone (at least that is the way folks are around here,) you want to meet someone go say Hi!
If someone gives you the stink eye or cold shoulder, pray for them, shake the dust from your sandals and go find someone else…there are plenty of loving Catholics at church who would love to meet you…invite someone to dinner, talk to your priest and develop a close relationship there, tell him your struggles…
Serve in the church, serve the church, serve each other…I guarantee you will make friends…some may be eons older that you, or younger…some may be damaged physically, emotionally or mentally but they are there…go find them!

Quit expecting people to fulfill your needs…God does that…strive to live a chaste life and see what blessings the Father bestows on you.
Realize your not the onliest one carrying around a cross…these threads illustrate one thing to me…not all, but a lot of “SSA” and gay people impose their own suffering and complain they have no fellowship…
Not all mind you, but a lot…why? I dunno…I could venture a guess but do not want to sound judgmental…most likely like the rest of us toiling in the world of sin it is guilt…
I feel like they want to put their sin and suffering in a special category…but the truth is we all suffer equally from a multitude of sins, temptation affects us all differently, some may have a easier time fighting it but in the end nobody gets out of here alive.
We should not look to identify ourselves as an LGBTQ Catholic, or a SSA Catholic, or a over 50 Catholic, or a “insert your designation here” Catholic…or whatever…instead we should say we are suffering pilgrims, aliens in this world… we are Catholic…

Anyway, like the Beatles sang…

“And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make”

So go make some love…errr…wait that did not come out right…

 

[Prodigal_Son]

BlueMaxx, some of what you say is good advice. But you say:

Quit expecting people to fulfill your needs…God does that…

That is awfully close to heresy. We are an INCARNATIONAL religion. This means that we believe that God provides for our needs through human beings, as well as directly through Himself. It is true that we should never put our trust fully in a “son of man, in whom there is no help”. But God makes Himself known to us through sons and daughters of men, and the idea that we can thrive without meaningful human relationships is a lie.

 

[BlueMaxx]

Well I should have said…

“quit looking to people to serve your emotional needs and to be the defining aspect of your self esteem”

However, I tend to do stream of thought writing and sometimes things are not always as fleshed out as they should be.

Heresy, well that is a stretch…if you take a look at the bulk of my post and it’s context it is how we are to serve others…in doing so we will be rewarded, could be friendship, fellowship or peace at heart…who knows!

I am sorry if that snippet seemed incongruous with the rest of the response…

Trust in God,…as we read this morning in mass…strength is made perfect in weakness…

 

[Prodigal_Son]

The only reason I used the word “heresy” is that I’ve been reading books about heresy, and one very common heresy is to not fully believe in the incarnation, in the sense of “still thinking that there is an unbridgable gulf between human and divine”. I’m glad that that’s not what you meant.

 

[Thorolfr]

We should not look to identify ourselves as an LGBTQ Catholic, or a SSA Catholic, or a over 50 Catholic, or a “insert your designation here” Catholic…or whatever…instead we should say we are suffering pilgrims, aliens in this world… we are Catholic…

What about “woman Catholic” or “man Catholic”? I don’t know about the Catholic Church, but most Protestant churches I’ve been in have separate women’s bible study groups and men’s bible study groups. And I know that there are special men’s groups in the Catholic Church such as the Knights of Columbus with a separate Knights of Columbus Auxiliary for women. Why would men and women want to have separate groups? Perhaps because they enjoy having some spaces with other people who share more of their own interests and have had similar experiences and similar struggles. Being a man is certainly different from being a woman and it’s not necessarily bad to recogwnize that difference.

And what about “Catholic veteran”? There actually is a group called Catholic War Veterans of the United States of America. Or what about “Catholic lawyer”? There’s even a groups called the American Catholic Lawyers Association and many cities have a “Catholic Lawyers’ Guild”.

So I don’t know what’s wrong with having a group for LGBT Catholics. Being gay is different from being straight and it does help sometimes to be with other people who have had the same struggles and the same challenges, people who better understand and are more sympathetic to what it’s like to grow up gay and to be a gay man or a lesbian. It helps to have other people with whom one can commiserate.

 

[theCardinalbird]

Quit expecting people to fulfill your needs…God does that…strive to live a chaste life and see what blessings the Father bestows on you.

We are social beings BlueMaxx, if a friendship with a godly man can somewhat help me carry this cross easier, then surely you would not object? Didn’t God say that man should not be alone? That was said before Eve was created and does mean that we should not be alone on this earth because we need each other too. Adam had God and spoke to him, God still saw it fit to give him a companion. Those of us who can’t have companion (which I have no objections to traditional marriage being the only marriage) due to this problem are struggling to cope because of various reasons.

If you want fellowship then go get it!
Go to an old folks home and serve the poor and needy, go out and live the life of Christ as we are suppose to…go to the homeless shelter…volunteer for cleaning crew or cook crew for the church socials…go up and have a friendly conversation with just about anyone (at least that is the way folks are around here,) you want to meet someone go say Hi!

I agree serving others and being social is important and a good way too, but SSA also has some psychological baggage that needs to be spoken about whether with a priest or a trusted therapist. I’ve done those things, helping anyway I can for the Church’s social functions, I still however have feelings that (while I try) I can’t ignore. and need help to deal with. Perhaps there is something else besides community that is needed?

If someone gives you the stink eye or cold shoulder, pray for them, shake the dust from your sandals and go find someone else…there are plenty of loving Catholics at church who would love to meet you…invite someone to dinner, talk to your priest and develop a close relationship there, tell him your struggles…

True

Realize your not the onliest one carrying around a cross…these threads illustrate one thing to me…not all, but a lot of “SSA” and gay people impose their own suffering and complain they have no fellowship…

I know I am not the only one carrying this cross, I do, all I just need is help (psychological), love and affirmation from guys in a healthy manner who are devoted to Christ. Also it is hard to find fellowship these days with people who would want to help a person like me out. I mean its just very hard not to fall for the desires of the flesh and it is especially hard when one doesn’t receive help in these matters and feels alone. That is what I feel sometimes.

I feel fellowship with other men can help me with that, is that so wrong? Is it so wrong to lean on another Christian for support? Or are we not even allowed to do that?

cont’d

 

[theCardinalbird]

Not all mind you, but a lot…why? I dunno…I could venture a guess but do not want to sound judgmental…most likely like the rest of us toiling in the world of sin it is guilt

I agree it does seem a lot self-centered. But the question is what can be done? How can we ease this suffering somewhat? If the answer is community, then how can we bring the Church to foster community? My hope lies with the Courage Apostolate.

I feel like they want to put their sin and suffering in a special category…but the truth is we all suffer equally from a multitude of sins, temptation affects us all differently, some may have a easier time fighting it but in the end nobody gets out of here alive.

We don’t want to put our struggle in a special category, we simply want support from Christ’s Church. We all do suffer, many times equally, but that does not mean we should just simply brush off each other sufferings. In order to fight it, something has to be done, or else people eventually fall and (heaven forbid) despair.

We should not look to identify ourselves as an LGBTQ Catholic, or a SSA Catholic, or a over 50 Catholic, or a “insert your designation here” Catholic…or whatever…instead we should say we are suffering pilgrims, aliens in this world… we are Catholic

And we are Catholic and that is all. I say I struggle with SSA, simply that. Do I call myself an SSA Catholic? No. I say I am Catholic and when the time is right I may say I struggle with SSA. I don’t like labelling myself.

 

[jfz178]

People can do what they want sexually. I don’t care. I believe God cares, but it’s between them and Him. I will treat them with kindness and charity like anyone else as long as they treat me the same way.

But I’m tired of hearing about it. I don’t believe LGBT is an essential part of who someone is. It is a choice, pure and simple. Make your choice about your sex life and then have the decency to be discrete about it. I don’t go around proclaiming my sexuality and I don’t want to hear about yours.

 

[DarkLight]

I think you’re underestimating how much parish life is focused on the assumption that the proper solution to everything is to marry people off. Half the time the reason for saying something is your other option is “that weird girl who turns down dates with perfectly good men for no reason and is still single at 30.”

It’s easy to be discreet about your sexuality when it matches what people are expecting of you anyway.