Part 2: Vocations to love & relationship for faithful LGBT Christians

[EnglishTeacher]

…MAIN QUESTION:
(4) Gay Christians faithful to the church cannot have typical intimate relationships, like marriage and romance, which are often the chief outlets for human and Christian needs. So what are some Christian alternatives for LGBT people to love, have companionship, and even close intimacy, and how can our churches promote them?

Does your question pre-suppose that same-sex attracted people will “come out” or be open to the general public about their attractions and struggles? I am just trying to get a feel for what you envision. I do think we as the Church should find better ways of reaching out to those who are permanently single, whether due to SSA or to other reasons. What if you are a LGBT person who does not want his sexuality to be known to the parish or to whoever but who still need and wants the support of community and meaningful friendships within the Church? There surely must be many out there who do not want to be labeled but who still need someone to confide in.

 

[QwertyGirl]

What if you are a LGBT person who does not want his sexuality to be known to the parish or to whoever but who still need and wants the support of community and meaningful friendships within the Church? There surely must be many out there who do not want to be labeled but who still need someone to confide in.

How wonderful it would be for someone to be known for who they truly are, including sexual orientation, without being “labeled” at all. Maybe that really is the first step in all of this. We don’t “label” straight people, and we shouldn’t “label” gay people, either. Hopefully, in the not too distant future, there will come a time when closets will only be used for their intended purposes (coats, hat, shoes, and the like).

 

[DarkLight]

I’d say start with @Lara’s idea of getting people to mind their own business a touch more.

Right now part of the issue is that there’s no good way to say “I don’t think I’m called to marriage” without it being a Big Thing that people Need to Know About. People aren’t very good at minding their own business with regards to those who aren’t following the traditional paths, and trying to avoid helpful individuals is rather a pain.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

How wonderful it would be for someone to be known for who they truly are, including sexual orientation, without being “labeled” at all. Maybe that really is the first step in all of this. We don’t “label” straight people, and we shouldn’t “label” gay people, either. Hopefully, in the not too distant future, there will come a time when closets will only be used for their intended purposes (coats, hat, shoes, and the like).

I get what you are saying, and I hope that as a Church we continue to look for good ways to strengthen and deepen our fellowship in Christ and welcome all, regardless of sexual orientation (or of whatever other struggles people may have). (The “LGBT” label was not invented by the Church, for what it’s worth.)

But what I am saying is that there may be many people with same-sex attraction who feel that their sexuality is a matter that they wish to keep private and they don’t wish for “gay” or “lesbian” to be their identity, per se. That is (partly) why it seems to me that a focus on building a real community in the whole parish is key, one that reaches out to all and doesn’t just focus on families (as wonderful as families are). That way, hopefully people have opportunities to make real friendships and can find support in those friendships for whatever crosses they may be carrying (including SSA), without having to join a special group or broadcast it to the world if they are not comfortable with that. Does that make any sense? (Still thinking this issue through, so I may not be articulating it the best.)

 

[EnglishTeacher]

I’d say start with @Lara’s idea of getting people to mind their own business a touch more.

Right now part of the issue is that there’s no good way to say “I don’t think I’m called to marriage” without it being a Big Thing that people Need to Know About. People aren’t very good at minding their own business with regards to those who aren’t following the traditional paths, and trying to avoid helpful individuals is rather a pain.

Meaning people who are trying to “help” you by matchmaking, I assume?

It’s interesting that this should be the case, when the early Church encouraged people to remain single if they could handle that life, so that they could be freer to serve Christ and his Church. The view of many in the early Church seemed to be that the devoted single life should be the default vocation, while marriage was an honorable back-up plan for those who could not handle celibacy. In modern times it seems that we have almost the reverse view, except with no structured plan for those who are called neither to marriage nor to the religious life. (Maybe more LGBT people should consider the religious life in community? I don’t know. Easy for me to say, I guess, since that is no longer an option for me.)

 

[DarkLight]

Meaning people who are trying to “help” you by matchmaking, I assume?

Matchmaking, general dating advice, “don’t give up” encouragements, attempting to figure out how to fix the problem that’s keeping you from finding the one…

 

[Gab123]

These terms you use like gay and LGBT are not who theee people are called to be. They are called to heterosexuality and to chastity.

This gets to the heart of the issue. It’s really a question of doing God’s will, not our will… Obviously God made men to men, and women to be women, so men and women should act like men and women, and seek to do God’s will, despite one’s inclinations toward disordered passions…

 

[OsculeturMeOsculo]

Let’s talk about confraternities since there is a sense of community and it kind of is like being part of a religious order in a sense.

 

[catholic1seeks]

I’m lucky because one of my (Protestant) friends and her husband are VERY intent on starting a communal life/intentional community. And her sister, a soon to be Eastern Orthodox Christian, also operates on that same level of thinking. Part of her attraction to the local Orthodox church, which so happens to be right next to the much larger Catholic parish, likely includes the small, community-oriented feel that the local Orthodox community offers.

So there are Christian alternatives to the nuclear family. And who knows, maybe I’d end up living in community with these friends. But I think it’s unfortunate that we as Catholics can’t get on board and rediscover our ancient past, which was much more community-oriented, as others have pointed out.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Actually, this was a good response. It is exhausting carrying secrets. But it does lead to some questions. Are there people with SSA who wish to remain chaste and faithful to the Catholic Church who practice “stopping” their thoughts? In other words, my sense is they keep feeding their fantasies rather than just telling themselves, “Don’t go there.”

Say a married woman keeps fantasizing about her male boss. At some point, she has to cut herself off from these thoughts and recognize they don’t lead anywhere. Are you and the OP suggesting there needs to be a place for her to talk to her friends about her fantasizing problem?

I’m genuinely wondering why a person with SSA would dwell on this part of their life.

How many men do you know who have never spent time dwelling on their sexual desires, whether pure or impure? I would suggest that it’s quite normal to do so, even if it’s rarely helpful – whether for gay or straight people. Your comparison to the married woman doesn’t really capture much, to my mind, because of course gay people have over and over and over cut off their particular fantasies for particular people. If you don’t learn to do that, you can’t be an effective human being!

But it’s different to “cut off” the entire longing for romance/sex altogether. If that were easy for gay people, it would be easy for priests too. Indeed, many priests have said that simply “stopping” their sexual/romantic thoughts is unhelpful, since it is essentially repression. For me, the challenge has been how to refuse to fantasize without hating my own nature as a sexual being. It’s not easy to be pro-chastity without being anti-sex, but that is what all of us are called to.

 

[Mary888]

The OP also presented 4 paradigms in his post. He or she already said that is about gays who are Christians, follow the Church rules, the term “gay” also includes SSA and the question does not refer to occupying ecclesial positions or a special type of ministry.
The question is about which activities can the Church encourage for gay people in terms of love and relationship. Which definitely do not include sex or affectionate intimacies as point 2) in the original post indicates.

 

[Gab123]

The difference is that heterosexual people have a choice of actively searching for a spouse and looking forward to one day having that relationship. Gay Catholic people don’t (I am not entertaining the notion of gay people marrying straight people, or other gay people of the opposite sex, and “making it work”. That is a terrible thing to do, IMO). So it seems to lack empathy, for someone to make that remark to a gay person who is struggling with being a good Catholic.

Gay Christians faithful to the church cannot have typical intimate relationships, like marriage and romance, which are often the chief outlets for human and Christian needs.

The problem is that God’s Plan of Marriage and relationship between man and woman has been distorted by the world. God’s plan of sanctification of the laity is Marriage; where 2 people completely opposite come together and have to learn to love one another in the Christian sense of the word Love where love is not a feeling, but rather a sacrifice of one’s self for another. Marriage is meant to be a school of forgiveness, understanding and sacrifice based on the oppositeness of one’s spouse. When the honeymoon period in marriage is over, the real school of love and struggles begin. Thus the reason why so many drop out of that school right after the honeymoon.

A “good Catholic” is one who is always struggling against self; an emptying of one’s self. Learning to do God’s Will, not MY will; thus God’s will is for woman and man to sanctify each other through their oppositenes. The male-female, man-woman, husband-wife paradigm, where the wife makes the husband a father, the husband makes the wife a mother, and both form the natural nest where masculine and feminine influence the intrinsic development of children.

The “gay” perspective on romantic relationship is the opposite, and intrinsically devoid of God’s plan, rooted in a psychologically/emotionally-damaged, morally disordered thirst for relationship that ends up being a comfort-driven, sex-driven, eros-centered prison, where the “self” is the centeredness of one’s existence. Instead of struggling to uproot and change one’s self, one ends up demanding the Church change its teaching, seeking everything to revolve around one’s own self-centered existence and rebelling against nature itself.

Jesus said that the Truth will set us free. Meaning that people who do not have the truth are slaves to a lie; slaves to the flesh, the world, and to the devil. Thus people who are not open to the truth react with anger when someobody speaks it plainly. The early Christian martyrs all died terrible deaths simply for speaking the truth. Thus Jesus foretold:

“If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also…”

 

[catholic1seeks]

The “gay” perspective on romantic relationship is the opposite, and intrinsically devoid of God’s plan, rooted in a psychologically/emotionally-damaged, morally disordered thirst for relationship that ends up being a comfort-driven, sex-driven, eros-centered prison, where the “self” is the centeredness of one’s existence. Instead of struggling to uproot and change one’s self, one ends up demanding the Church change its teaching, seeking everything to revolve around one’s own self-centered existence and rebelling against nature itself.

Why do you keep going off-topic?

The “gay” perspective on romantic relationship is the opposite, and intrinsically devoid of God’s plan, rooted in a psychologically/emotionally-damaged, morally disordered thirst for relationship that ends up being a comfort-driven, sex-driven, eros-centered prison, where the “self” is the centeredness of one’s existence.

Nice assertion (accusation?) there. I’m glad you’re an expert. By this post, I assume you are some kind of scientist — or perhaps you even have access to the inner world of gay people. You must have plenty of LGBT friends! What a keen insight into their day-to-day experiences!

Instead of struggling to uproot and change one’s self, one ends up demanding the Church change its teaching, seeking everything to revolve around one’s own self-centered existence and rebelling against nature itself.

So in other words, you ignored the OP or didn’t read it at all. Do tell what teaching is sought to be changed in this thread. Stop making straw men.

 

[PennyinCanada]

There are people who have a ‘disordered’ relationship with food and weigh 600 lbs.
There are people who have a ‘disordered’ relationship with alcohol and struggle with alcoholism.
There are people who have a ‘disordered’ relationship with drugs, with gambling, with…and the list goes on.
The struggle is every day, they have secrets. They are hurt by people, and they hurt people too.

The best answer anyone can give to another person on this side of heaven is to go to Christ. He will weave your life in a way that will bless you and bless others.
I point to Christ. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. I point at the sacraments. Resentment, bitterness and unforgiveness will poison my life and yours. Get rid of it in the sacrament of reconciliation and go as often as you need to.

A Sovereignty Prayer

Lord God Almighty, you are sovereign. You are sovereign, Lord God Almighty.

In my backwards, disordered state, I find myself inclined to invite you into my day. In reality, it is not my day, and what a peaceful relief that already is. It is your day: you are sovereign.

So I do not ask you into my day. Rather, I enter into the day the Lord has made, I rejoice, and I am glad in it.

I do not invite you into my time. Rather, you are the Author of time itself, and I gratefully exist upon the temporal stage which you created for life. Thank you for the dignifying gift of time, and please guide me in using it.

I do not ask, "What is your personal will for my life? Rather, I ask, “What is the will of God and where do I fit in that picture?” Thank you for making me a part of your picture.

I do not break your Law in a literal sense whenever I sin. Rather, I break against it. Your Law remains perfectly intact.

I do not reenact the past in the gift of the Eucharist. Rather, I reencounter what is ever present to you, in thanksgiving for your love and grace.

You do not 'suddenly show up again". Rather, I come into view again of One who never abandoned me.

I do not fight for victory. Rather, I fight from it. Thank you for your triumph.

And I do not tell you how big the storm is. Rather, I tell the storm how big my God is.

May you find peace.

 

[Horton]

I guess that means I should identify as a heterosexual single seeking/living a vocation as opposed to a gay/SSA single seeking/living a vocation. As far as ministries, why would a gay/SSA person be restricted? Just as us HS (heterosexual single), as long as we pass the background check and receive the training, nothing should be off limits.

 

[Annie]

Hmm, that seems odd, since saints and others say that one should flee temptations in the area of sex, unlike most other temptations which people practice the opposing virtue of by facing.

So we practice the virtue of patience by being patient in adversity. We do not “practice” the virtue of chastity through looking at porn.

I think our society holds out a false ideal of romance and marriage, which are supposed to complete and perfect us and provide us with everything we could want.

Our fantasies are of an unachievable idyll, of a paradise provided by some human rather than by God.

Look at the divorce rate to see this isn’t working.

Overall, Christian1seeking, I think it is best perhaps to consider that the problem LGBT people face is not all that different from most problems that most people face.

We think our problem is figuring out what the Church thinks we should do when the reality is that we should be asking God to let us know what He wants us to do. Only He knows every jot and tittle of our individual situations and only He knows His plan for us.

I think ultimately we are unable to answer your question. Unlike vocations to the religious life, where things are more organized, we have to muddle through on our own, even married people.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Hmm, that seems odd, since saints and others say that one should flee temptations in the area of sex, unlike most other temptations which people practice the opposing virtue of by facing.

So we practice the virtue of patience by being patient in adversity. We do not “practice” the virtue of chastity through looking at porn.

I am utterly confused about what you thought I said. I CERTAINLY did not endorse porn! I must have expressed myself badly.

Do you suggest that a person with SSA should be anti-sex? By which I mean, do you think that they should consider the sex drive in them to be an intrinsically bad thing – as opposed to a misdirected thing?

 

[Annie]

No, not at all. I was simply wondering what the priests you mentioned were talking about since it didn’t line up with what I have read about growing in virtue. Perhaps I misunderstood.

Also, learning to handle one’s sex drive in a life of chastity is not ipso facto considering it as a bad thing. As with all our drives, it must be moderated to appropriate behavior.

 

[Gab123]

So in other words, you ignored the OP or didn’t read it at all.

No. My answer has everything to do with your question:

) Gay Christians faithful to the church cannot have typical intimate relationships, like marriage and romance, which are often the chief outlets for human and Christian needs. So what are some Christian alternatives for LGBT people to love, have companionship, and even close intimacy, and how can our churches promote them?

The problem is that you start off with the notion that there is such a creature as a “gay Christian” that “cannot have” a relationship with the opposite sex. The very core of your problem right now is your self-identification with LGBT propaganda. The whole point of the gospel of Jesus Christ is a call to have a complete transformation of heart, mind, and soul; not on building a life based on staying the same as we are. Instead of framing the question in terms of vocations for “gay Christians” your question really is about vocations for single people. My advice to you is to work on changing. Change your outlook on life, on people; and ponder why God created woman as the perfect companion for man. The problem is that many people find religion, but the haven’t found Jesus Christ. Following Christ is all about changing…

 

[Prodigal_Son]

No, not at all. I was simply wondering what the priests you mentioned were talking about since it didn’t line up with what I have read about growing in virtue. Perhaps I misunderstood.

I think you did. I think you took “thought” to mean “fantasy”. I don’t think fantasies are wise, helpful, or permissible to people who are not pursuing (and ought not pursue) the thing they fantasize about. I distinguish fantasies from thoughts, however. When a priest sees a beautiful woman, I would think there would be a way that he could rejoice in her beauty in passing without acting as if it were FOR him or encouraging lustful thoughts in himself. In my own life, when I see people I’m attracted to who are not my wife, I try to briefly think about how lucky their spouse is/will-be that God gave them that gift, and then I move on.

For me, as a same-sex attracted man, that is the only way I’ve found myself able to proceed without self-hatred and repression.

Also, learning to handle one’s sex drive in a life of chastity is not ipso facto considering it as a bad thing. As with all our drives, it must be moderated to appropriate behavior.

I certainly never denied that. I just do not believe that the virtue of chastity just means “not sinning sexually”. That is CONTINENCE, not virtue. The virtue of chastity involves living virtuously as a sexual being. It is absolutely a form of moderation, not a form of complete rejection. But for many, that moderation does not involve marriage, and thus for many, that moderation involves finding a way to integrate the sexual impulses wisely into a life without sex or fantasy.