Part 2: Vocations to love & relationship for faithful LGBT Christians

[DarkLight]

Actually women’s groups are one example I’ve used. A lot of places most stuff is divided into men’s and women’s stuff, and the stuff for women is focused on the assumption that your primary goal in life is to be a wife and mother.

 

[catholic1seeks]

That is not the Catholic answer.

Transsexual refers to “a person who emotionally and psychologically feels that they belong to the opposite sex.”

In Catholicism, our moral theology rightfully distinguishes between unchosen tendencies, feelings, and conditions on the one hand — and then the willful engagement of acts (which may or may not be more disordered, and, when willfully chosen, sinful) on the other.

 

[drac16]

I know what a transsexual is, Catholic1seeks. You don’t have to define it for me.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Then you should know being transsexual in itself is not against Christ, since the very definition means having a FEELING. We can’t always help out feelings. If we were automatically non-Christian because of our disordered desires, then, well, I suppose all of us would be hellbound!

 

[catholic1seeks]

But anyway, @DarkLight and others, thanks for constantly trying to keep this thread on track. Unfortunately, it’s getting derailed like the first thread. My recommendation is simply ignore those who are consistently trying to move this thread in a backwards direction.

Eventually, their posts will just fade away.

 

[drac16]

Right, transsexuals do have feelings. I believe that their desires to transition comes from a misunderstanding of what they are. One side says that you are who you say you are, while the Biblical side says that you are what God made you to be. Moreover, transsexuals will often say that they were born with the wrong body; and I don’t believe that that’s a Biblical assertion.

I can sort of understand how a lesbian, gay and bisexual can be a christian, but the T [transsexuals], I cannot.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Our churches bought into the lie that society told us about how sex is an all-encompassing force and that natural friendships are really secret covers for sexual expression. So in trying to preserve chastity, we end up suppressing relationships that weren’t sexual in the first place out of fear that they might some day have sexual desire involved, while pushing people to fulfill all desires for human support and companionship within marriage.

@DarkLight I think what you said here is really key.

It’s not just Western Culture in general, but even Western churches – including the Catholic Church – that have emphasized romantic relationships almost exclusively to any other kind of relationship. So where does that leave people who can’t marry?

Yes, the culture has idolized sex. But it’s not just sex in the hedonistic sense — it’s also romance, dating, etc. Look at pop culture, the movies, advertisements. You’re expected to have a boyfriend or girlfriend. Can we really blame gay people for wanting marriage like everyone else?

The Church does not idolize sex in the same way, but it has, too, fallen for the idolization of marriage to the extent of ignoring other relationships. And this is why single people — gay or not — often find themselves in real struggles. Note, the church was not always like this — especially in earlier times when Christians were closer in community and interdependent.

So as a practical, concrete step forward: Bluntly, we need more intentional communities!

As I said before, my married Protestant friend and her Orthodox sister are looking into promoting this kind of life. And I am lucky enough to be invited in. But it seems so unprecedented, that I’m scared of even trying to make that commitment. If only this was a more widespread option!

And this idea has been controversial around here, but I’m still convinced that committed, celibate friendships – even of two gay people, who have similar needs and experiences – are a possibility for some people.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Then let’s just allow Christ to do the judging.

We will be surprised when we get to Heaven, I think.

 

[drac16]

That’s a kind sentiment, but ultimately the transsexual is following a course that will destroy them. Just because you feel a certain way, that doesn’t mean you are that way. We do a disservice to transgendered/transsexual people if we just tell them that you are what you say you are. There is a tremendous amount of beauty in the creation of male and female and God made you that way for a reason. Taking hormones and getting sex change surgery is not consistent with God’s decree of making males as males and females as females.

Does God have a decree? I think it rests on that question.

 

[catholic1seeks]

I also don’t think it’s consistent with God’s love that he’d allow someone to be born with intense internal struggles that would lead to eternal hellfire simply because that person is trying to to ease those intense internal struggles the best way he or she knows how to.

Do not tell me you know what it is like to be transsexual unless you yourself are one.

Again, only God knows the heart.

 

[drac16]

Doing what we feel is the best way forward will only lead to spiritual darkness. That’s why the cross was necessary. We can’t guide ourselves and find success.

 

[catholic1seeks]

But that thesis gets rid of our conscience’s ability to say anything meaningful about right and wrong.

I agree that we can sometimes lead ourselves astray. But much of our human desires are there because of God. We desire the good and true because of God, etc. The desire for happiness comes from God. You can argue that a transsexual – or a gay person – will not find true happiness if they act on their feelings. But what this means is that these individuals have particular experiences that the rest of us often don’t, and so how they proceed forward is met with additional complexities that may lessen their culpability.

So, for example, a transsexual who decides to chemically and physically alter their body isn’t necessarily doing so out of contempt for God. They’re just trying to be happy.

 

[drac16]

I don’t believe we should always cast aside what our conscience says. When one is born again, he/she can sometimes rely on their conscience because their whole nature has been transformed by the Holy Spirit. As we naturally are, which is a fallen people, we cannot guide ourselves; that’s why, in Isaiah 53, the Bible says “All we like sheep have gone astray”.

A transgendered/transsexual person doesn’t have a reformed conscience, so, as I said earlier, a transgendered person’s conscience will only lead to spiritual darkness. I don’t believe that a transexual who undergoes hormone therapy or a sex change is merely doing so out of a desire for happiness. They know about God’s decree because God has shown it to them, but they try their best to suppress that. They are without excuse, as Romans 1:18-20 says.

It is willful rebellion against a created order that has been put forth by God. God considers it willful rebellion against Him. Let that ring in your ears. You could easily say that an alcoholic just wants to be happy and he find fulfillment in alcohol abuse. He just wants to be happy-- He doesn’t want to scorn God. No, the transsexual and alcoholic are equally fallen, my friend.

 

[DarkLight]

Yes, the culture has idolized sex. But it’s not just sex in the hedonistic sense — it’s also romance, dating, etc. Look at pop culture, the movies, advertisements. You’re expected to have a boyfriend or girlfriend. Can we really blame gay people for wanting marriage like everyone else?

The Church does not idolize sex in the same way, but it has, too, fallen for the idolization of marriage to the extent of ignoring other relationships. And this is why single people — gay or not — often find themselves in real struggles. Note, the church was not always like this — especially in earlier times when Christians were closer in community and interdependent .

I suspect the modern world has also made this much more of a thing. We casually make moves that our ancestors would have considered major life changes. Our livelihoods often demand it. We work jobs providing services to people we’ll never see that we travel to in insulated cars.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

A transgendered/transsexual person doesn’t have a reformed conscience,

You don’t know this, you have no way of knowing this.

I don’t believe that a transexual who undergoes hormone therapy or a sex change is merely

Again, you have no concete knowledge of this.

They know about God’s decree because God has shown it to them, but they try their best to suppress that.

And you know their interior life how?

No, the transsexual and alcoholic are equally fallen, my friend.

An ignorant statement totally void of mercy.

 

[SonofJoseph]

Here are my thoughts:

Over the past two days, I’ve read more or less trough this entire thread. I think unfortunately in a lot of ways it has not gone anywhere. One of the reasons for this is because some are saying (paraphrased) “do like everyone else, pick up the cross” which does not offer a real solution. That is an answer to the “what” but it does not answer the “how”, is., how does one do that as someone who experiences SSA?

Another problem I see is this: “drop the SSA label.” Okay, I think no one here is labeling themselves as LGBT. That is why we call it SSA. But saying that in terms of finding ones vocation is silly. Listen, every individual person is unique and by nature will bring his or her own life experiences with them while finding their place in God’s plan. Sexuality must be taken into account. Otherwise, it is surpressed which only leads to a negative outcome.

I believe our vocation is ultimately revealed to us by God, and it can only be discovered on a personal basis through prayer. The answer to the question of “what is a possible vocation for someone with SSA?” is not clear for the same reason it is so often unclear for everyone discerning a vocation: it is revealed through prayer over a period of time.

I think sometimes we can overthink it. St. Therese of Lisieux put it simply, “Holiness consists in simply doing God’s will, and being precisely what He wants us to be.” Anything beyond that (meaning more specific) would probably be suited more for spiritual direction. I want to also say that men with SSA are not barred from the priesthood outright. I think people go around saying that too much, and it simply isn’t true.

If men here who have SSA feel called to the priesthood (or to religious life, and this also applies to women with SSA) but think it’d never work because you have SSA I want to encourage you to give it a shot. Just be open about with with the Vocation director and everyone involved directly in your application process (psychologists, Bishop). The problem comes in when the attraction is surpressed and not healthy integrated into ones life.

We integrate SSA into our lives by talking about it with trusted friends and also developing a healthy sense of our identity. I have learned about this a lot over the past 4 months. Spiritual friendship is a major major major help, and I cannot vouch enough for Courage International. That group has totally change my life. Everyone in there knows the burden of loneliness, so as long as you try a single meeting you will see the truth of what I’m saying. Courage is a VERY fruitful ministry. It is too often ignored or mentioned like “oh btw there’s Courage but don’t expect much.” NO, expect MUCH from Courage! Hope does not disappoint! I might make a thread about this very thing so that others can see this. People need to know the authenticity of Courage. That ministry is the real deal, and their work is vastly important today.

 

[Gab123]

Nope. You’re not quoting from them. It’s not even a poor paraphrase.

Where’s that in scripture or the CCC?

Everything i’m Saying is in the Scriptures and the Catechism. It’s about building on Jesus and loving God with one’s whle heart, mind, soul and strength, and neighbor as self. Often times the problem is that people skip entire volumes of the Word of God and the writings of the Church and simply zero in on an indexed topic. No you won’t find the acronym “LGBTTQQ” in the Bible, but you will certainly know the wisdom of God about it…

And on this thread the OP laid it out that it assumes chastity on the the part of the LGBT person. Only you think that acknowledging this identity is a master of some kind.

Yes, chastity is good, and demanded of all of us; all I’m saying is that building on the LGBT definitions is to build on sand; you’re not going to get very far spiritually if you insist on identifying as a transgendered acatholic, or a gay Catholic. When one builds on one’s own self one is building on the wrong foundation, one which will collapse. “I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me” (Galatians 2:20).

When you realize that the LGBT movement is not from God, you will realize that it is foolish to defe-ine one’s self by their false gospel. That’s all i’m saying; I would suggest reading the Sacred Scriptures everyday to completely renew one’s mind.

“Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.

That, however, is not the way of life you learned when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. “ Eph. 4:14-24

 

[catholic1seeks]

@Gab123 Just to clarify, I don’t consider myself as being part of any LGBT “movement.” I have never been part of an LGBT activist group, and I have hardly ever participated in such events (besides being a casual observer at my town’s local pride event last year).

I understand why you are disturbed by the idea of a LGBT “movement.” But as I keep saying over and over again, I’m not talking about a movement when I choose to refuse to “LGBT.” I’m simply referring to the real people that these terms refer to.

Choosing not to use such abbreviations doesn’t get rid of the fact that there are really people who are gay.

You don’t have to call a turkey a turkey in order to realize there’s such a thing as a turkey.

Using LGBT is a matter of convenience, because the typical person knows what these abbreviations stand for.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Also, I’m not convinced that even the people who adopt such terms for themselves are thereby focusing their entire personhood on that identity. When I say I’m gay on these forums, or to my friends, I just mean what others mean by SSA. It doesn’t really matter what term you use. Most people don’t even know what SSA is!!

If a Vatican document can use the term “LGBT” and if the Pope himself can use the word “gay,” I feel like I’m in safe company. At the very least, it expresses that the typical person – even the typical priest, bishop, and pope – know what people generally mean by “gay.”

If I say I’m gay to any person my age, they will not assume one way or another if I have a relationship, am sexually active, am struggling with my sexuality, or am even attempting to look for a romantic relationship.

In fact, in college, I knew many friends who told me they were “gay” and yet also were very much struggling with their sexuality – coming from Christian (but not Catholic) schools and families that were very conservative.

 

[DarkLight]

So here’s my two biggest thoughts:

(1) Encourage people to mind their own business a bit more. Don’t make assumptions about single people. Don’t try to set people up who don’t want to be paired off. Don’t treat single lay life as a sort of unfortunate anomaly. Don’t act like single people are probably off having sex just because they’re single. A lot of stuff would be easier if someone could say that they’re not called to marriage without it being a big thing.

(2) Encourage community within the parish beyond the nuclear family. There are many people in this situation. LGBT people. Those who are divorced but not annulled. Those who are unwed but raising children. Those who are married, but their spouses are far away. Even those who simply have not married.