Pastor and DRE refusing FHC to homeschooled child

[PJM]

Can you please share more about the whole family catechesis?

As a FYI,

I’m a Trained, tested, certified Marian Catechist, with more than 20 years of teaching our Faith experience, including middle-school, HS, and Adults, Conformation prep and RCIA…

Now retired, I have developed a TOTALLY FREE OF ALL COST home study course of E-Mailed Lessons [1 per week[.

I cover more topics than RCIA

ALL in far more depth and detail [I no-longer have time constraints]

And I STRESS providing the evidence supporting our Faith beliefs and practices

I ALSO answer all faith related questions personally

This is now the 8th year of this ministry, so If you’ll permit me, I can be of help to you and your family.

Easter Blessings,
Patrick [PJM] here on CAF

 

[Eponine1]

jlc2k2;13838875:

Perhaps we are talking past each other.
I seriously doubt that the priest is denying a Sacrament.
There’s no way.
As I said way upthread: There’s more to this story.
Something is amiss somehow.

How can I fill in the gaps ? There absolutely is a way our pastor is refusing sacraments…we are seeing it.

As I’ve said before, I’d be happy to answer any questions you may have to provide more information.

In our case, the DRE, at the direction of the pastor, told us in February that our son would not be permitted to receive because he wasn’t taking the parish classes. At that point, we began to make alternate plans for First Eucharist in another state 1900 miles away…where our daughter will be graduating college soon. Unfortunately, my husband, and son’s grandma and godparents will not be able to attend due to distance and expense.

My husband went over the DRE directly to the pastor who echoed the same thoughts. My husband reminded him of canon law and archdiocesan policies, but pastor did not appear to be concerned with either per his statements. Pastor eventually decided our child could receive, but not with the class. Ok, we could work with that.

What we find disheartening is that a child who is a member of the parish community and who has been educated outside the typical means will not be acknowledged by the DRE or parish.

In the case of my Confiirmatin sponsor-ee, he flat out told her and her parents, “You will not be confirmed if you don’t go to class.” Thy have written to the bishop, archbishop, and Rome.

 

[Eponine1]

Op-I have seen other families at times go to the diocese on matters that are similar-and form this I can tell you that the diocese usually backs up the pastor to run his parish the way he chooses. To go against this is setting yourself up to be looked upon one of those familes that cannot submit to church authority.in very serious cases- I would go to the diocese, for this-I don’t think I would.

This is my thinking:
FHC is about a Holy Sacrament, and the lessons we teach our children about the proper disposition to receive. It is not about who sits in the first pew, who has the most family there, or if a child participate with a class or not. The big picture has to be looked at.

I hope everything is resolved for you and your child.

You’re very right…on both counts!

 

[Eponine1]

pianistclare;13838831:

I’m confused and believe we are talking past each other at this point. The OP is not in a situation where things just happened and her child will miss it. The OP thought she was following the guidelines as laid out by her diocese and her parish.

I just don’t see this as the OP wanting some social benefit as implied in mommy k’s post. She’s right that FHC isn’t about who has the most people there, etc. It’s about the sacrament that the OP’s priest has said her child cannot receive.

Correct, we aren’t at all looking for the social benefit. We did go through all the proper channels with communications with pastor and DRE, we’d just like to see Archdiocesan policies adhered to and all children welcomed to participate in the Sacraments, regardless of how they were prepared, as long as they are prepared!

 

[mommy_k]

Perhaps this was clarified and I missed it but from the OP it doesn’t sound like this is only a matter of not receiving the sacrament with a class but a matter of not receiving the sacrament AT ALL. Should a parent just not care that their child is not to receive First Holy Communion?

And as for public school versus homeschool - my kids attend/will attend public school for their education but my current plans are to do as much FF at home as possible because that is what works for our family. So that’s an arbitrary distinction.

Not really–it’s not about not caring. It’s about receiving with the proper disposition especially in the event that you posted.

Who is more qualified to determine the readiness of FHC if this is the case–an ordained Priest and Director of Religous education (who I am assuming has a degree in catechesis),

Or-A layperson.

Again–big picture.

 

[jlc2k2]

Not really–it’s not about not caring. It’s about receiving with the proper disposition especially in the event that you posted.

Who is more qualified to determine the readiness of FHC if this is the case–an ordained Priest and Director of Religous education (who I am assuming has a degree in catechesis),

Or-A layperson.

Again–big picture.

Which I totally agree with. But the OP had stated that they were willing to make themselves available to the priest and the DRE so the child could demonstrate their readiness. That option was not accepted by the priest and the DRE.

 

[bitterhope]

Not really–it’s not about not caring. It’s about receiving with the proper disposition especially in the event that you posted.

Who is more qualified to determine the readiness of FHC if this is the case–an ordained Priest and Director of Religous education (who I am assuming has a degree in catechesis),

Or-A layperson.

Again–big picture.

In all truthfulness and from experience in many parishes in several diocese I can honestly tell you, parents tend to be more cautious about these things than the DREs, teachers, even the priests. Most of the parents I know have wondered if their child is ready and been reassured by the parish staff that yes, child is ready. Often we as parents are more likely to say my kid doesn’t get it and isn’t ready while priests and DRE/teacher says oh yeah they are fine. Seeing how many kids really don’t get it and leave the faith at first opportunity I tend to trust parents more when determining if a child is ready or not.

I homeschool but send my kids to religious ed and youth group at whatever parish we happen to be at the time. I think it’s good for my kids but it isn’t best for all kids. Parents can and should be able to determine for their children what’s best for them individually.

 

[mommy_k]

In all truthfulness and from experience in many parishes in several diocese I can honestly tell you, parents tend to be more cautious about these things than the DREs, teachers, even the priests. Most of the parents I know have wondered if their child is ready and been reassured by the parish staff that yes, child is ready. Often we as parents are more likely to say my kid doesn’t get it and isn’t ready while priests and DRE/teacher says oh yeah they are fine. Seeing how many kids really don’t get it and leave the faith at first opportunity I tend to trust parents more when determining if a child is ready or not.

I homeschool but send my kids to religious ed and youth group at whatever parish we happen to be at the time. I think it’s good for my kids but it isn’t best for all kids. Parents can and should be able to determine for their children what’s best for them individually.

My response is addressing what could possibly happen if a parent deems their chid is ready and the priest/dre does not, and the diocese is contacted.

For this circumstance, it is unfortunate for the op. It is true that some parents ensure readiness-but not all do. With this in mind, the diocese then defers this back to the parish priest, and it lands just where it begun. At parish level.

 

[Eponine1]

Not really–it’s not about not caring. It’s about receiving with the proper disposition especially in the event that you posted.

Who is more qualified to determine the readiness of FHC if this is the case–an ordained Priest and Director of Religous education (who I am assuming has a degree in catechesis),

Or-A layperson.

Again–big picture.

Our DRE doesn’t have a degree or certificate in catechetical studies. He used to be a boat pilot and is now the DRE in our parish.

 

[SuperHappy]

I am just curious, why would anyone want to be a member of the church yet reject the classes and/or teaching that the church offers? Why would you not want your child to participate with all of the other children in the shared experience of the classes? And why would anyone think that if the requirements are not met, the child should be allowed to participate? What would stop anyone at any time from stating that they taught the child themselves and so that’s enough? The classes are in place for a reason and I really want to understand why a person who truly wants to participate and be a member of the church rejects the offered classes?

 

[Eponine1]

I am just curious, why would anyone want to be a member of the church yet reject the classes and/or teaching that the church offers? Why would you not want your child to participate with all of the other children in the shared experience of the classes? And why would anyone think that if the requirements are not met, the child should be allowed to participate? What would stop anyone at any time from stating that they taught the child themselves and so that’s enough? The classes are in place for a reason and I really want to understand why a person who truly wants to participate and be a member of the church rejects the offered classes?

We have availed ourselves of various classes over the 16 years we have been parish members.
These particular classes have questionable content and several of the children therein demonstrate disrespect to the instructor, verbally and behaviorally.
WE HAVE MET the Archdiocesan requirements for our child to make his First Communion.
(And for the record, we are actively involved in our parish and have been since we joined: altar servers, lector, liturgy commission, lector coordinator, catechist, extraordinary minister of Holy Communion, choir, greeter, Pastoral Advisory Council, volunteers at community meals, etc.)

 

[HouseArrest]

This doesn’t make any sense. So your son can have FHC at your parish, but just not the same day the REP class has it?

What happens if your son has FHC previous to the parish’s FHC, then attends mass that day? Is he allowed to receive is Second Holy Communion with that class? Or does he have to go to another parish that day?

The REP class technically isn’t even having FHC together. They are having it spread out over three masses.

 

[jmjZelie]

We have availed ourselves of various classes over the 16 years we have been parish members.
These particular classes have questionable content and several of the children therein demonstrate disrespect to the instructor, verbally and behaviorally.
WE HAVE MET the Archdiocesan requirements for our child to make his First Communion.
(And for the record, we are actively involved in our parish and have been since we joined: altar servers, lector, liturgy commission, lector coordinator, catechist, extraordinary minister of Holy Communion, choir, greeter, Pastoral Advisory Council, volunteers at community meals, etc.)

Based upon what you have described, it seems to my perspective an inexcusable and arbitrary exclusion. But it is exactly what I have heard of happening over and over again, and what would likely have happened to my son at our new parish of i had attempted to do only home catechesis.

One of my students in the class I am an assistant catechist actually threatened to kill my son, who is his classmate, after a few weeks of classes. That child is very disturbed and has multiple diagnoses, including oppositional defiant disorder. He also has a very bad home environment and parents who recently divorced and are not cooperative. My husband and I thought about removing ourselves immediately from the program, because at first it appeared that the whole thing was going to be ignored and swept under the rug. We decided instead to insist upon our rights to remain in the program and the protection of our son by insisting that if the other boy remain, that it only be with the presence of his mother at every class. If anyone was going to have the reception of the sacraments compromised, it was going to be the violent child. I am very glad we did that. And a happy ending to the story is that the boy is obviously being positively impacted by the continued efforts of all of us to bring him along through the preparation process and help him make his first confession and et ready for FHC. If I had withdrawn from the program, I feel sure that we would have received similar disapproval at the eleventh hour as what happened to you.

I really must commend you, for how resourceful you were in finding another avenue for your son to receive his FHC. It is too bad that he cannot have all his family present at such a momentous occasion, but you have advocated for your son and have handled a very difficult situation very well. I am very thankful to read your story.

Going forward for my family, I intend to make sure that I can be a volunteer in the FHC and Confirmation prep years for all my children, or else find other arrangements at a parish that is in the next city over and is known for its friendliness to homeschool prep. Also, we are not homeowners, but renters, and I have no qualms about moving to the other parish if things become more difficult or if too many errors are being taught.

 

[bitterhope]

Our DRE doesn’t have a degree or certificate in catechetical studies. He used to be a boat pilot and is now the DRE in our parish.

That’s exactly how it is at 90% of the parishes we have been members of over the years. Quite often I have more experience with kids than they do. Quite often the program is not well run and sometimes it is heretical. The last parish (before our current one) had mandatory confirmation prep. Those that didn’t attend could not make confirmation for another two years because they only offered it every other year there. It was every Wednesday from 6-9 PM. The kids learned to cook quesadillas and French toast, they learned to properly set a table and hygene. The girls learned about skin and hair care while the boys learned about body odor and shaving. They spent a total of 3 classes in a year on actual confirmation prep. One of those classes was to explain the volunteer hours needed for confirmation, one class was to write a letter to the bishop, one class was to be interviewed by the pastor. But every single week was mandatory to attend. A student that missed 3 weekly classes would not be confirmed. If you missed even one of the three actual preparation classes or a parent didn’t attend with them on those nights, they were not confirmed. Out of 33 students when classes began, 14 were confirmed. The same parish had similar requirements for First Communion. The kids had weekly Sunday morning classes that were mandatory as well as three additional classes that parents had to attend with the students. One of those classes is a 6 hour long retreat the morning before First Communion (9 AM-3 PM). Two years ago when my son was making first communion, one of his classmates missed the retreat the day before First Communion. The parents had told the DRE that they could not make it and were assured it was fine since they gave months in advance notice. The next afternoon, as the kids were lining up for the procession into Mass, the pastor pulled the family out and told them the boy would not be allowed to receive.

The church shouldn’t with hold sacraments the way it often does nor should it require families to jump through so many hoops either. And I know people will say that the parish is required to follow a set program from the diocese and that all parishes in a diocese have the same requirements, but that isn’t always the case either. No other church in this area, including our current parish, does anything like that one. Numerous families have written letters but nothing is ever done about it except that the pastor gets much colder to those families.

 

[UbiCaritas]

I am just curious, why would anyone want to be a member of the church yet reject the classes and/or teaching that the church offers? Why would you not want your child to participate with all of the other children in the shared experience of the classes? And why would anyone think that if the requirements are not met, the child should be allowed to participate? What would stop anyone at any time from stating that they taught the child themselves and so that’s enough? The classes are in place for a reason and I really want to understand why a person who truly wants to participate and be a member of the church rejects the offered classes?

Well, in our case, it’s not a question of participation per se. I teach baptism prep classes at the church. DH is involved in their capitol campaign. I also volunteer in various other capacities at the church. Parish involvement isn’t the issue here.

However, parents are, per Church teaching, the first and primary educators of their children in the faith. As described in various posts on this thread, the classes offered at a given church may be problematic in content.

A pastor should interview those children preparing for their Sacraments, regardless of who’s doing the prep. That’s part of his responsibility before God.

When I hear a kid, age 7-8 or thereabouts, about to make his first Confession ask someone standing in line ahead of me if “that’s Jesus, or is it God?” while pointing at the crucifix over the altar, I worry about entrusting my kid to his catechists.

When I am told, repeatedly, by the DRE at our church that almost none of the kids in the catechesis programs ever go to Mass, I wonder how solid the doctrine is that’s being taught. I presume that they certainly aren’t discussing the precepts of the Church, for one thing. (Note: I do not blame the kids whose parents don’t take them to Mass! I do find it concerning that the RE program at our church doesn’t bring this up with the parents lest they offend them, however.)

And, as I mentioned, in our particular situation, requiring a family to give up Sunday dinner/family time for an entire year prior to a child making his or her FHC is nothing short of ridiculous. Family is the first and best catechesis a child is going to have in the faith. Telling us to forgo family dinner, activities, and prayers on Sunday night in order to attend a class that cannot possibly need to take that long is pretty unreasonable.

pianistclare: I will say that the state of catechesis in our archdiocese seems to be mind-bogglingly awful. One of our pastor’s goals in the infant baptism prep program is to encourage parents in irregular marriage situations to get those sorted out. As a result, I have a short spiel I give at these classes about “if you aren’t married in the Church and didn’t receive a dispensation for that, now would be a wonderful time to look at receiving the Sacrament of Matrimony. I can answer some questions about that process if you want to pull me aside after class, or please feel free to call the parish office to speak to one of the deacons or priests about in more detail.”

Quite frequently, I’ll have a couple come up to me afterwards who went through all the catechesis the Church had to offer when they were kids, were confirmed, etc, but honestly had no idea until I said so that that the Church requires that Catholics be married in a Catholic church and by a priest/deacon unless they got a dispensation. I was the first person to tell them that.

That is a problem.

 

[pensmama87]

When I hear a kid, age 7-8 or thereabouts, about to make his first Confession ask someone standing in line ahead of me if “that’s Jesus, or is it God?” while pointing at the crucifix over the altar, I worry about entrusting my kid to his catechists.

When I am told, repeatedly, by the DRE at our church that almost none of the kids in the catechesis programs ever go to Mass, I wonder how solid the doctrine is that’s being taught. I presume that they certainly aren’t discussing the precepts of the Church, for one thing. (Note: I do not blame the kids whose parents don’t take them to Mass! I do find it concerning that the RE program at our church doesn’t bring this up with the parents lest they offend them, however.)

I know firsthand that the RE program at our parish is excellent…and yet we still have those kids. The catechists are solid, our DRE is amazing, and the curriculum is excellent.

These exist in schools all over, too - I’ve taught ‘em. If parents don’t care, kids don’t care. You might get a couple (we recently had a child who was enrolled in the parish school only because it was convenient to his parents’ schedule baptized, as well as his father, and his mom returned to the Church - awesome situation, but rare). And the pastor and the DRE and the catechists do inform parents that everyone is expected to go to Mass. But many think it’s optional and that only “really churchy people” actually follow all the rules.

(By the way, one of my babysitting kids is almost nine and still doesn’t know for certain my name or my children’s names, or even that my youngest is a boy. He asks me at least twice a week and still doesn’t remember. )

Actually, we’ve decided to go the homeschool route for religious education for that reason. The DRE is very pro-homeschool, and I can do the same curriculum at home with my kids, while my kids get to go to all the big functions as well as ones designed just for the other homeschooled RE kids. It’s not anybody at the church’s fault - I just have seen firsthand how catechists really struggle in a class where half the kids barely know anything, and how bored that makes the kids who really could go in depth. I don’t want my kids getting lukewarm because Mrs. Smith has to re-teach how to make the Sign of the Cross every week.

 

[Usige]

I am just curious, why would anyone want to be a member of the church yet reject the classes and/or teaching that the church offers? Why would you not want your child to participate with all of the other children in the shared experience of the classes? And why would anyone think that if the requirements are not met, the child should be allowed to participate? What would stop anyone at any time from stating that they taught the child themselves and so that’s enough? The classes are in place for a reason and I really want to understand why a person who truly wants to participate and be a member of the church rejects the offered classes?

The problem for many is that (in some locations) the content is very watered down. If you look at discussions of catechisis over the past 30 years you will see continuous reference to how poor it has been for many people. We found that we constantly had to correct things that my older kids were pick up in class (“Ms. X says that it’s good that kids can have two mommy’s or daddy’s”, “Mr. Y said it’s okay to skip Mass if we have a big soccer game”.) It is not that people want to skip the classes because they disagree with Church teaching, but rather they want to protect their children from being misled through teachers that do not know the faith or who outright reject the faith. I am not saying it is the norm, but it happens often enough that many parents are leary of just handing their kids over.

I know when I volunteered to teach Confirmation prep we about 15 - 20% of kids that said they thought Jesus was a nice guy, but wasn’t divine. One kid said he didn’t even beleive that Christ existed, but was made up by the apostles. When I brought this to the attention of the DRE she said “we each are on a path of spitirual discovery and we can’t tell them what to beleive so we shouldn’t correct them.” What is the purpose of catechisis if we simply say, “you know, Bobby, there is no right or wrong so all opinions are valid.”

What got me fed up was hearing kids in one of my kids class that spent more time on their felt first communion banners than on learning something like… I don’t know… the 10 commandments. One teacher told us that “we focus on how much God loves us since it’s the greatest commandment”. Okay, but how do kids learn about mortal sin if all you talk about is bunnies and flowers? She was incensed that our homeschool group suplimented, not replaced, the parish stuff with the Baltimore Catechism. Her thing was that it was old fashioned and caused kids to fear God. Well mam, fear of the Lord is one of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Long and short is many parents get tired of having to deprogram the stuff their kids pickup, so they would prefer to just bypass the problems in the first place. And why don’t many of these more orthodox parents volunteer? When you have to smile and not hurt Jenny’s feelings by saying it’s okay to get remarried like her parents did, you simply get burnt out. The issue is many people don’t want their kids to learn the faith. The want their kid’s sacramental ticket punched.

Like I say, not all programs are like that, but when a parish boasts of 200+ kids in first communion prep I certainly get nerveous about the quality of catechisis. Even if the DRE is orthodox, they will be using volunteers and the chance that all 20-30 volunteers are orthodox and know the faith is diminishingly low.

 

[jmjZelie]

Long and short is many parents get tired of having to deprogram the stuff their kids pickup, so they would prefer to just bypass the problems in the first place. And why don’t many of these more orthodox parents volunteer?

I edited your post because I wanted to address only this portion.

This was exactly my thoughts. I was concerned about the quality of the catechesis at our new parish. I had no way of knowing if it was good or not, but this year was my son’s sacramental prep year (second one actually) for FHC. So I decided to just make myself a nuisance, and attend everything, and it turned out that they were happy about that because they were desperate for volunteers. Because of my presence, they were able to figure out how to manage a class that had no teacher at the same time as my son’s class. They simply combined the two classes and made me an assistant catechist. It was a win-win.

And now, I know that just volunteering and being a familiar face is the way to go for me personally to advocate for my family. And I do it despite being super busy, because we have a large family and we homeschool and I am pregnant again. I would probably be the last person they would think to be able to ask to become a volunteer, but I am happy to be there for so many reasons. And they never mind if I have to bring my other kids along now and then.

I know this won’t work for everyone, but I just want to stress that this is a good option to consider. I prefer the redundancy and the challenges of volunteering over the worries of access to the sacraments. The sacraments are our life!

Oh, and I have learned new ways of teaching and interacting with children by watching and helping the lead catechist for the class. She has made a few mistakes in expressing the truths of the Faith, but she is unfailingly kind and patient and her manner of teaching is totally different in style than my own. And she prays so hard for all the students! It has caused me to recognize my own weaknesses and become a better teacher. Maybe someday, I might volunteer as a lead catechist, but right now I am very content to be a helper and learn from others.

 

[HouseArrest]

I know firsthand that the RE program at our parish is excellent…and yet we still have those kids. The catechists are solid, our DRE is amazing, and the curriculum is excellent.

These exist in schools all over, too - I’ve taught ‘em. If parents don’t care, kids don’t care. You might get a couple (we recently had a child who was enrolled in the parish school only because it was convenient to his parents’ schedule baptized, as well as his father, and his mom returned to the Church - awesome situation, but rare). And the pastor and the DRE and the catechists do inform parents that everyone is expected to go to Mass. But many think it’s optional and that only “really churchy people” actually follow all the rules.

(By the way, one of my babysitting kids is almost nine and still doesn’t know for certain my name or my children’s names, or even that my youngest is a boy. He asks me at least twice a week and still doesn’t remember. )

Actually, we’ve decided to go the homeschool route for religious education for that reason. The DRE is very pro-homeschool, and I can do the same curriculum at home with my kids, while my kids get to go to all the big functions as well as ones designed just for the other homeschooled RE kids. It’s not anybody at the church’s fault - I just have seen firsthand how catechists really struggle in a class where half the kids barely know anything, and how bored that makes the kids who really could go in depth. I don’t want my kids getting lukewarm because Mrs. Smith has to re-teach how to make the Sign of the Cross every week.

How can your RE program be excellent, yet half the kids barely know anything? I can see a few, there are always a few, but if it is so bad that you can’t send them there, then how is it excellent?

 

[pensmama87]

How can your RE program be excellent, yet half the kids barely know anything? I can see a few, there are always a few, but if it is so bad that you can’t send them there, then how is it excellent?

Part of it is that we’re an extremely large parish. Many of our parish staff are new and our pastor is newish, too. They are going the right way but it takes a lot of time to course correct. The people who are involved are passionate and orthodox, but they’re a small group - for now. I also live in a very “culturally Catholic” area, so people have religious identity but don’t practice, or practice in a minimal way.

In five, ten years, maybe I could put them in the regular CCD classes. Right now, that’s not where we are. Still a lot of “you teach my kids so I don’t have to” as parish culture.

I am very cautious too because my kids will be attending public school. I expect the kids there to be ignorant/indifferent/hostile to religion. I do not want that reiterated in CCD. My kids have a great peer group now of faithful Catholic families and I want to continue that.