Pastor buys AR-15 at raffle so he could destroy it

[Brendan]

Actually, that is complete nonsense. Every single US state has a much higher murder rate than any country in Western Europe. The three US states with the lowest murder rates (which hover around 2 per 100,000, so twice the European average) only account for 5% of the US population

My point was that gun control laws are meaningless in this equation.

Russia has similarly restrictive gun laws as Western Europe, but their murder rate is 4 times that of the US.

If gun control laws were actually effective, then then Russian rates would be more in line with Western Europe. But they are not.

If a person is looking at this reasonably, then one would look for a solution that at least correlates to solving the problem. There is no correlation.

If anything, the US data shows that a more guns would equate to fewer crimes, as the gun ownership rate has been increasing, while the crime rates have been going down.

 

[ShrodingersCat]

Some of the rest of the Western world - and a significant part of it being socialist in mindset, aka liberal, having an aversion to guns should surprise no one.

Unfortunately, “liberal” policies in the US are actually policies that centre and centre-right parties hold in Europe, to a large extent. Aside from moral issues like abortion, which we cannot ever condone, I feel like right-wing Americans tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater when referring to opinions that democrats tend to have as “liberal”; in reality politics is skewed in the USA on a number of issues. I mean, the pope isn’t a socialist

Leaving that aside, I still hold to my analogy. I have no problem with guns being used for hunting or target practice. Norway has a culture that allows a healthy relationship between it’s citizens and their guns, to a large extent. The US doesn’t have that.

Ireland has an unhealthy relationship with alcohol. Inaction is a poor option; nurses are still overwhelmed on weekends caring for severely drunk, puking people. Anti-social behaviour will continue. The list goes on.

There is also plenty of Irish people who have an extremely healthy relationship with alcohol. But no initiative to change our drinking culture will be successful unless it is applied nationally. Even if healthy drinkers are inconvenienced by attempts by the government to reduce binge drinking in Ireland, it’s for the greater good of the country and its people.

Obviously I’m not suggesting prohibition in Ireland. So if a citizen of the US is, in fact, a marksman, they should be able to continue that sport. If they hunt, they can also continue that, provided they meet strict criteria for owning and storing their guns and passing strict background checks. Otherwise, the only reason a person would own a gun is to kill or harm a person. When a person only owns a car to kill or harm a person, it should be removed from them too.

 

[FghtinIrshNvrDi]

Let’s all have a moment of silence for the innocent rifle that was taken out unjustly by a person with gunaphobia. These types of tragedies are avoidable, and we need to raise awareness of gunaphobia and the way it affects not only the people with gunaphobia, but also the adverse affects to the people close to them, and society generally.

Gunaphobia has a cure. Let’s raise some money by doing a 5k or something so we can continue to raise awareness.

I wish I got the rifle… What a waste.

 

[ShrodingersCat]

If gun control laws were actually effective, then then Russian rates would be more in line with Western Europe. But they are not.

Siberia is a whole other ball game, for obvious reasons. Exclude it from the data and what do you get? Remember that Russia is a former communist country and the depths of Siberia were where people got sent for disobeying the regime. If you only include the western part of Russia, the murder rate is lower than the US.

Also, reading Russia’s gun control laws, they don’t seem particularly stringent. They seem pretty much in-line with a lot of European countries.

 

[liturgyluver]

Tell me, how did the UK go about the process of reducing the amount of guns your country?

Like the rest of Europe we have never had a gun culture so it’s impossible to compare with the US.

 

[John_Lazarus]

Russia has very tight restrictions on guns. So you still haven shown any correlation between gun controls and low murder rates.

Or are you claiming that Russia is not in Europe?

A honkin’ big chunk of it ain’t.

 

[exnihilo]

I didn’t say anything about gun control as I don’t really care how you solve the problem (and it’s your problem, not mine). What makes me laugh is the level of denial that exists about the appalling murder rate in the US and the excuses that are trotted out to explain them. The fact is that criminals kill each other with guns in the US because they can get hold of them easily, and the point I made is that this is not a problem in other parts of the western world. Added to that, even if you strip out the black on black murders (as if somehow they don’t count?) the US murder rate at 2.7 per 100,000 people is still 3 times higher than that of Europe, so frankly no the murder rate of European Americans is not the same as that of Europeans. And guess what happens if you compare like with like - yes, the European murder rate falls to minuscule proportions.

Why do you just compare the US murder rate to Europe? What justification is there for that? The only reason I can think of is that by excluding data you can paint a picture of the US as being particularly violent and then blame guns. Why not compare the US to Brazil or South Africa?

 

[lmachine]

If gun control laws were actually effective, then then Russian rates would be more in line with Western Europe. But they are not.

Do you think the murder rate in Russia would increase or decrease if private gun ownership was banned?

 

[liturgyluver]

My point was that gun control laws are meaningless in this equation.

Russia has similarly restrictive gun laws as Western Europe, but their murder rate is 4 times that of the US.

If gun control laws were actually effective, then then Russian rates would be more in line with Western Europe. But they are not.

If a person is looking at this reasonably, then one would look for a solution that at least correlates to solving the problem. There is no correlation.

If anything, the US data shows that a more guns would equate to fewer crimes, as the gun ownership rate has been increasing, while the crime rates have been going down.

Russia’s gun laws are not particularly restrictive but there are areas within its borders which have a lot of guns in circulation. Incidentally their murder rate is actually twice not four times as high as the US. Crime rates are falling across western Europe as fast if not faster than the US, so gun ownership does not explain that.

 

[liturgyluver]

Why do you just compare the US murder rate to Europe? What justification is there for that? The only reason I can think of is that by excluding data you can paint a picture of the US as being particularly violent and then blame guns. Why not compare the US to Brazil or South Africa?

I am comparing western industrialized nations. If you think the answer is to compare the US with Brazil and South Africa where poverty levels and anarchy reigns then that’s your prerogative but it would be very sad.

 

[FghtinIrshNvrDi]

How about we quit comparing statistics and talk about the inalienable right of a man to defend himself, and his family, as he sees fit from any threat foreign or domestic?

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Gunaphobia nuts have their stats, and regular freedom loving individuals have their stats.

 

[exnihilo]

I am comparing western industrialized nations. If you think the answer is to compare the US with Brazil and South Africa where poverty levels and anarchy reigns then that’s your prerogative but it would be very sad.

I’d say Brazil and South Africa are industrialized. I’d say both are western. Their culture and law certainly come from Europe the same as the US. But what could being western or industrialized have to do with murder rates? That seems like an arbitrary distinction.

Why do you mention poverty? If poverty is a factor in your selection then I would think poverty could be the cause of violence not availability of guns. But are you saying poor people are more violent? That has interesting implications.

Why do you say anarchy reigns? Both have powerful governments. There are certainly dangerous areas in those countries but there are dangerous, lawless areas in the US, for example Chicago and Detroit. It would seem in your analysis you should drop Chicago and Detroit from the gun statistics.

 

[liturgyluver]

How about we quit comparing statistics and talk about the inalienable right of a man to defend himself, and his family, as he sees fit from any threat foreign or domestic?

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Gunaphobia nuts have their stats, and regular freedom loving individuals have their stats.

The irony is that on the one hand the US claims its citizens need their guns to defend its freedoms, but that they seem to be having the opposite effect.as a greater proportion of its citizens lose their lives to murder than elsewhere. It seems that the phobia works both ways.

 

[liturgyluver]

I’d say Brazil and South Africa are industrialized. I’d say both are western. Their culture and law certainly come from Europe the same as the US. But what could being western or industrialized have to do with murder rates? That seems like an arbitrary distinction.

Why do you mention poverty? If poverty is a factor in your selection then I would think poverty could be the cause of violence not availability of guns. But are you saying poor people are more violent? That has interesting implications.

Why do you say anarchy reigns? Both have powerful governments. There are certainly dangerous areas in those countries but there are dangerous, lawless areas in the US, for example Chicago and Detroit. It would seem in your analysis you should drop Chicago and Detroit from the gun statistics.

I take it you have never been to South Africa where in most cities it is not even safe to stop at traffic lights! On most other social and economic indicators North America is compared with Western Europe. But simply because South Africa and Brazil have higher rates than the US doesn’t take anything away from the argument: The US murder rate is 400% higher than the European one Why not compare Europe with South Africa and Brazil then?

 

[ShrodingersCat]

How about we quit comparing statistics and talk about the inalienable right of a man to defend himself, and his family, as he sees fit from any threat foreign or domestic?

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Gunaphobia nuts have their stats, and regular freedom loving individuals have their stats.

The problem is that your right to defend your family by owning a gun translates to your neighbours ability to shoot his wife and kid in a drunken rage. Far more wives and children have been killed by their husband’s guns than saved by them, in recent times at least. The right to defend your family exists, but not “however you see fit”.

 

[Michael68]

In Texas gun control is two hands and a wide stance!

 

[minion]

How about we quit comparing statistics and talk about the inalienable right of a man to defend himself, and his family, as he sees fit from any threat foreign or domestic?

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Gunaphobia nuts have their stats, and regular freedom loving individuals have their stats.

Way I see it, we are supposed to love the sinner and hate the sin. But the pseudo-religious, increasingly secular world no longer believes in sin, so it blames the only thing it can see - the gun the sinner is holding. No one is ever culpable for their own actions. Therefore, the new mantra is “Love the murderer, blame the gun.”

I guess some people will never really understand the value of strength and freedom until they’ve truly been weak and know what it’s like to be helpless.

 

[exnihilo]

I take it you have never been to South Africa where in most cities it is not even safe to stop at traffic lights! On most other social and economic indicators North America is compared with Western Europe. But simply because South Africa and Brazil have higher rates than the US doesn’t take anything away from the argument: The US murder rate is 400% higher than the European one Why not compare Europe with South Africa and Brazil then?

I’ve never been to either country. I understand South Africa isn’t safe but that is the very issue being discussed. If you throw out all the more dangerous countries then you’ll absolutely find the US is more dangerous then the remaining. But that hasn’t proven anything about guns. All its done is proven the laws of math.

 

[ShrodingersCat]

Way I see it, we are supposed to love the sinner and hate the sin. But the pseudo-religious, increasingly secular world no longer believes in sin, so it blames the only thing it can see - the gun the sinner is holding. No one is ever culpable for their own actions. Therefore, the new mantra is “Love the murderer, blame the gun.”

I guess some people will never really understand the value of strength and freedom until they’ve truly been weak and know what it’s like to be helpless.

Actually I think the mantra is “How can we stop this from happening?” as opposed to “Well, that’s sad, but if it infringes on my lifestyle I don’t want to help solve the problem”. I think the first response is more Christian. Of course the killers are responsible for their actions, it’s saving victims that we care about.

True freedom is not living you life in fear, or needing a weapon to feel safe and strong.

 

[FghtinIrshNvrDi]

The problem is that your right to defend your family by owning a gun translates to your neighbours ability to shoot his wife and kid in a drunken rage. Far more wives and children have been killed by their husband’s guns than saved by them, in recent times at least. The right to defend your family exists, but not “however you see fit”.

That’s just not true.