Patriarch Kirill says he won't meet the pope. Blames UGCC

[Nine_Two]

I didn’t mean anything…
I love Russians…
sorry:imsorry:
I just wish politics wouldn’t interfere in Church stuff

And I don’t think it is. No one has any proof that it is.

As I said, the situation in Ukraine is complicated, and even in situations where things aren’t complicated it can take quite a while for autocephaly to be recognized. Bulgaria, which had no issues like this, took 35 years. The Ukrainian church has only been an issue half that long.

By recognizing the autocephaly of the Kievan Patriarchate, Russia in effect surrenders its right to those parishes under it within Ukraine, communities that desire to be under it, and that are significant in number.
It tried a half-way recognition in North America with the OCA and that has brought it nothing but grief. It isn’t going to try the same thing again. It becomes an all-or-nothing prospect if an agreement isn’t hammered out beforehand.

If the Kievan Patriarchate is smart they’ll negotiate for merger with the Moscow Patriarchate and significant autonomy with a view to future autocephaly.

 

[dvdjs]

The words of Saint Paul:
If, therefore, you have courts for everyday matters, do you seat as judges people of no standing in the church? I say this to shame you. Can it be that there is not one among you wise enough to be able to settle a case between brothers?

But rather brother goes to court against brother, and that before unbelievers? Now indeed (then) it is, in any case, a failure on your part that you have lawsuits against one another. Why not rather put up with injustice? Why not rather let yourselves be cheated?

Instead, you inflict injustice and cheat, and this to brothers. 1Cor 6:4-8

Delightful, but this is nothing new. Of course the MP would rather that the UGCC accept injustice and allow itself to be cheated. Normalie. Perhaps if there were some authentic Christian brotherhood reflected in the merest allowance of reciprocity even a hint of compunction and remorse on the part of Moscow some decent discussion might happen. Unfortunately such acts appear to be outside the realm of what is possible for Moscow. It never happens. Never.

But we sure get an earful of how it really Rome that is the problem. Unbelievable.

 

[dvdjs]

Even if we assume that were true it says a lot more about Rome and it’s relationship to the Eastern Catholics of Ukraine than anything else.

Unbelievable.

 

[KyivAndrew]

I have a hard time believing the Eastern Catholics figure into the issue for Russia - however they do figure into the issue of possession of church property.

Of course the Ukrainian Catholics figure into the Russian Orthodox Church’s thinking. During the time of the Soviet Union, one third of all active parishes in the Soviet Union were located in the Ukrainian Catholic provinces. These Ukrainian Catholic parishes had all been forced at the point of Stalin’s KGB to “join” the officially sanctioned Russian Orthodox Church in 1946. The Ukrainian Catholic bishops were tortured and then murdered by Stalin’s KGB. What makes this liquidation of the largest Eastern Catholic Church more remarkable is that to this day, the Russian Orthodox Church hierarchy never condemned this liquidation nor its role in it. Indeed, they have approved of it. And then they have the gall to claim they can’t meet the Pope because we exist.

Russian neo-imperialism is behind the thinking of much of the current hierarchy in Moscow unfortunately, in my opinion. The territories of much of Western Ukraine were never even under Russia until Stalin annexed them in 1945 yet many in the Russian Orthodox Church comically believe these Ukrainian lands to be their canonical territory - they never were but Kremlin-approved Russian history books teach these were all Russian lands.

As for possession of churches, well there are tens of Orthodox Churches in western Ukraine under Moscow (which were originally Ukrainian Catholic) to this very day. There is no problem with church possession. This is an excuse by Moscow.

There are hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian Catholics in Russia; some exiled there by the Soviets. Guess how many churches they are allowed to build for themselves by Putin or the Russian Orthodox hierarchy.

Personally, the reasoning of “We hate Russians” is a horrific reason for autocephaly. Unchristian foundations for a Church to have.

I think you are entirely misreading the claims for an autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church if you think it is based on horrific hatred for Russians. The feeling of xenophobia is usually displayed by the Russian Orthodox elite to all things Ukrainian - language, history, culture. Hence, the current Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church claiming all Ukraine (and even Moldavia!?) belong to Moscow’s Russian world. This is imperialism. It is a political message. Even the German Pope of Rome HH Benedict spoke to Ukrainian pilgrims in the Vatican in Ukrainian and quite well. It is even easier for a Russian to speak some Ukrainian. The Russian Patriarch will not even say one word in Ukrainian when he visits the Ukrainian population though he could, but he won’t.

Ukraine is the second largest Orthodox country in the world and by church attendance it has as many attendees if not more than the Russia which has three times the population. It could long ago have had an autocephalous church it it were not simply for the Moscow’s Church’s imperialism. Not only that but ecumenism may have proceeded quite fruitfully between Ukrainian Catholics and Ukrainian Orthodox without Russia.

Russia under Putin, and Ukraine under pro-Russian Yanukovych are going to hell in a hand basket - severe corruption (from which not even the current Russian Orthodox Patriarch is immune), alcoholism, brutality. And in this atmosphere, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church won’t even deign to meet with the Pope because the Church which Stalin tried to destroy is still growing while P. Kirill’s may be on the fritz.

I know this may not sound well but I believe there are hundreds of thousands of honest Russian Orthodox as well who can’t stand the current hierarchy of the Russian Orthodox Church and its past relationship with the Soviet and now current Kremlin, its “business interests” (i.e. the current Russian Patriarch ran the cigarette and booze trade), and its not confronting society’s problems more forcefully.

 

[Nine_Two]

Ok, you’re right. The Russian Orthodox Church is just an evil organization that wants to crush the tiny Ukrainians under its feet!

Ever wonder why Ukraine had such a large number of active parishes which were in an area not part of Russia until after WWII? I’ll give you a hint: The ROC wasn’t treated much better.

The fact that you aren’t even an interested party in the issue of the KP vs. the MP (yes I know, you have Ukrainian Orthodox family, great, but that doesn’t make you an interested party), yet spit all that bile as though it has been vindictive and systematic victim of persecution (and that bile may be one of the reasons the ROC doesn’t want to help the UGCC in Russia - I present that as a theory, I haven’t even looked into the truth of your allegations) makes it hard for me to believe it isn’t out of a hatred of Russians.

Ecclesiastical territory in the Orthodox Church has always been based on secular borders. Which Orthodox Church do you believe Western Ukraine should fall under? Would you prefer the EP (note: If you answer yes it will strengthen my belief that this is all about hating Russians)? As I pointed out to another poster autocephaly in the Orthodox Church isn’t as cut and dried as clip Autocephalous! Things need to be worked out between the KP and MP, but that is not the concern of the UGCC. This thread was about the returning of Church property, which as you’ll see, the MP is all for sitting down and talking out.

 

[dvdjs]

This thread was about the returning of Church property, which as you’ll see, the MP is all for sitting down and talking out.

Just a certain woman before Solomon was all for cutting the baby in half.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

It tried a half-way recognition in North America with the OCA and that has brought it nothing but grief. It isn’t going to try the same thing again. It becomes an all-or-nothing prospect if an agreement isn’t hammered out beforehand.

True, but wouldn’t you agree that the situation in America was / is rather different than that in the Ukraine?

 

[KyivAndrew]

The fact that you aren’t even an interested party in the issue of the KP vs. the MP (yes I know, you have Ukrainian Orthodox family, great, but that doesn’t make you an interested party), yet spit all that bile as though it has been vindictive and systematic victim of persecution (and that bile may be one of the reasons the ROC doesn’t want to help the UGCC in Russia . This thread was about the returning of Church property, which as you’ll see, the MP is all for sitting down and talking out.

Nine, you’re a new convert to Orthodoxy as I understand and it seems to me sometimes the most emotional statements about issues like these come out of zealous converts. I am not claiming you one, but, heck, you’ve already claimed that I hate or throw bile. Much of what I have said about the HIERARCHY of the Russian Orthodox Church in my post is often stated by lay Orthodox persons themselves, and on Orthodox fora at that. I suppose they are all haters too. I point out the fact that the current hierarchy of the Russian Orthodox Church has no issue about Stalin’s liquidation of the Ukrainian Catholic Church. This isn’t bile but the truth and I can point to Metropolitatan Hilarion’s statement on that. That is absolutely shameful.

As for church property, there are some hundred of parishes I believe of Moscow Pat. Orthodox Churches in western Ukraine which were previously Ukrainian Catholic. No claims from our hierarchy but just the same empty claims about property from Moscow. I have no wish to see the Russian Orthodox Church be gone but, sadly, I cannot say the same about the Russian Orthodox hierarchy’s position on our church.

In any event, if these posts just turn into personal attacks on posters as you have done, I don’t wish to go further with you.

 

[Marcarios]

The whole situation in Ukraine and the former Soviet Bloc outside Russia, shows us the poisonious side effects of nationalism for the Church and Christians. Its obvious that nationalism since the 18th century onwards has done nothing but to undermine unity of Christians everywhere by making Christs Body an enclave of a given Ethnic Culture. These Church leaders should know this , and they should stop using the Church as a vehicle for nationalism and ideaology. Rather, they should distance themselves from the state which views the Church as a tool for its own agenda . Their cooperation with the absurdity of Romanticism and its daughter Nationalism undermines the Unity of Christians and helps in advancing the eventual demise of Christian Society.

 

[CDB1718]

I’m adding the Eparchy of Mukachevo to our church website as requested and found this history on their site. A big part of it deals with property disputes. It makes their position clear.

mgce.uz.ua/ipost.php?id=1&lang_id=2

Before 1949 our church counted more than 500 property of real estate (rectories, schools, educative houses…). Since legalization in 1989 we have received back only 60 buildings in which for the moment we celebrate the Liturgies, because in such village the church is left to the Orthodox communities. Some of our old property was given for the property of different institutions, and that will never be returned.

For the moment we have 222 eparchial priests, 25 religious, and 9 emeritus. We need to build the rectories, because the majority of our priests live in private apartments far from their communities. We search for the resources to keep our 106 seminarians plus 20 seminarians that study abroad; we look also for the new churches, rectories, pastoral centers to can have contacts with the people, for the charity centers.

We still do not have the Epaiscopal Residence where till today is the Library of the Uzhgorod State University. The official process of returning stage by stage of the Episcopal Residence started only in 2004. In 2006 we started the renovation-reconstruction process of the Residence. Since then there has been accomplished following: outer facade, two towera with cupolas, roof construction and cover. Furthermore, there have been returned and renovated seven rooms of the episcopal apartment and the episcopal chapel on the second floor of the Residence(240m2 out of near 3000m2). In May 2009 the building of the Episcopal Residence was officially registered as a property of Mukachevo Greek Catholic Eparchy. On April 24, 2010 Bishop Milan Sasik CM solemnly consecrated partly renovated attic floor of the Episcopal Residence. There were completed 750 m2 out of 1104 m2 of the attic floor area. At present all essential Eparchy Administration offices temporarily occupy the rooms of the attic floor until the complete renovation is finished of the first and second floors of the Residence. Also there was started a process of transference of the State University Library from the Resindence to the State University building. Recently second floor is vacated.

At present Orthodox Church (under the jurisdiction of the Moscow Patriarchate that has never been present in the history of Transcarpathia until the 20th century) in Transcarpathia has over 500 parish communities, 2 eparchies and more than 40 monasteries. Besides 260 of our former church buildings Orthodoxies possess great number of churches built in-between two World Wars and also a significant number of new churches that have been built since 1991.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The whole situation in Ukraine and the former Soviet Bloc outside Russia, shows us the poisonious side effects of nationalism for the Church and Christians. Its obvious that nationalism since the 18th century onwards has done nothing but to undermine unity of Christians everywhere by making Christs Body an enclave of a given Ethnic Culture. These Church leaders should know this , and they should stop using the Church as a vehicle for nationalism and ideaology. Rather, they should distance themselves from the state which views the Church as a tool for its own agenda . Their cooperation with the absurdity of Romanticism and its daughter Nationalism undermines the Unity of Christians and helps in advancing the eventual demise of Christian Society.

Every Church has a national and ethnic character. Even Roman Catholicism is different in every country and culture where it is present. A faith detached from the culture of the people who live the faith, is a dying faith.

 

[Pork_Roll]

The Russian Orthodox resent all eastern catholic churches for the mere fact they exist. I don’t think even if all of the UGCC churches were orthodox he would meet with the pope.

 

[Nine_Two]

Nine, you’re a new convert to Orthodoxy as I understand and it seems to me sometimes the most emotional statements about issues like these come out of zealous converts. I am not claiming you one, but, heck, you’ve already claimed that I hate or throw bile. Much of what I have said about the HIERARCHY of the Russian Orthodox Church in my post is often stated by lay Orthodox persons themselves, and on Orthodox fora at that. I suppose they are all haters too. I point out the fact that the current hierarchy of the Russian Orthodox Church has no issue about Stalin’s liquidation of the Ukrainian Catholic Church. This isn’t bile but the truth and I can point to Metropolitatan Hilarion’s statement on that. That is absolutely shameful.

A new convert to Orthodoxy? Generally one is only considered a neophyte for a year or two. I may not have been Orthodox much longer, but I’m certainly pass that zealot stage.

Please tell me where in my post I defended anything about the attitude of the Russian Orthodox Church.

What I take issue with is this victim mentality. You level accusation after accusation at the Russians and make them out to have been happy partners. You complain about the persecution of your priests under Stalin as though the ROC had happy fun supertime with him.

Yes, the Moscow Patriarchy has some issues that need to be worked out, and no I don’t always agree with them (The fact that I’m Orthodox and admit that, however does not necessarily follow that I am right), but when you portray it as you have you certainly leave the impression that you hate Russia - and I speak as a non-Russian, non-Ukrainian who knows and have known a number of people of both nationalities.

As for church property, there are some hundred of parishes I believe of Moscow Pat. Orthodox Churches in western Ukraine which were previously Ukrainian Catholic. No claims from our hierarchy but just the same empty claims about property from Moscow. I have no wish to see the Russian Orthodox Church be gone but, sadly, I cannot say the same about the Russian Orthodox hierarchy’s position on our church.

Yes, clearly thats why the patriarch wants to sit down to these four party talks. If history has taught us anything, the best way to destroy a group is to sit down and talk with them.

In any event, if these posts just turn into personal attacks on posters as you have done, I don’t wish to go further with you.

I never made a personal attack on you. I said your post was full of bile. I said it appeared as though the basis for the KP’s claim to autocephaly (a group you don’t belong to) was hatred of Russians. I said your posts seemed to show similar feelings toward Russians. But I did not make a personal attack on you.

YOU however, made a personal attack on me.

 

[Nine_Two]

The whole situation in Ukraine and the former Soviet Bloc outside Russia, shows us the poisonious side effects of nationalism for the Church and Christians. Its obvious that nationalism since the 18th century onwards has done nothing but to undermine unity of Christians everywhere by making Christs Body an enclave of a given Ethnic Culture. These Church leaders should know this , and they should stop using the Church as a vehicle for nationalism and ideaology. Rather, they should distance themselves from the state which views the Church as a tool for its own agenda . Their cooperation with the absurdity of Romanticism and its daughter Nationalism undermines the Unity of Christians and helps in advancing the eventual demise of Christian Society.

Well said.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

The whole situation in Ukraine and the former Soviet Bloc outside Russia, shows us the poisonious side effects of nationalism for the Church and Christians. Its obvious that nationalism since the 18th century onwards has done nothing but to undermine unity of Christians everywhere by making Christs Body an enclave of a given Ethnic Culture. These Church leaders should know this , and they should stop using the Church as a vehicle for nationalism and ideaology. Rather, they should distance themselves from the state which views the Church as a tool for its own agenda . Their cooperation with the absurdity of Romanticism and its daughter Nationalism undermines the Unity of Christians and helps in advancing the eventual demise of Christian Society.

Bravo! And yet this is a common theme throughout the history of the Church. We see in America, founded in large part on the principle of religious freedom, how challenging it is to maintain true separation of Church and state - and that’s when we strive to do so!

 

[KyivAndrew]

Nine Two…this is getting ridiculous. I’m sorry you seem to think my points are hateful of Russians - that’s a really broad accusation on your part. I really believe there are millions of honest Russian Orthodox believers and ones like Father Gleb Yakunin who pointed out that in today’s leadership of the Russian Orthodox Church are still the same people who were in cahoots with the Soviet KGB back in the 1970s, Patriarch Kiril among them according to the Times of London (KGB codename Mikhailov).

Father Gleb Yakunin was imprisoned by the Soviets and funnily enough after insisting on today’s post-Soviet Russian Orthodox Church confronting the members of it who collaborated with the KGB, Yakunin was excommunicated by the Russian Orthodox Church after the Soviet collapse. There are many Russians like Gleb Yakunin, true Russian patriots and honest Christians - whom I respect.

For you to jump from my condemnation of today’s Russian Orthodox hierarchy and equate it with hatred of Russia is not even remotely close to anything I said. The Russian Orthodox hierarchy blames Ukrainian Catholics for its not meeting the Pope and any defense on our Church’s part is simple hatred of all Russians in your eyes right? This is absolute hogwash. Any criticism of the Russian Orthodox hierarchy and its until now close relationship with KGB colonel Putin is hatred of Russia it seems in your eyes.

I fervently support the pro-democratic Russian people currently protesting Putin’s KGB state in the hundreds of thousands. I criticize the Russian Orthodox Patriarch for up to now working alongside so closely with KGB colonel Putin in expanding Russian authoritarianism to other states. I am ant-Putin and anti-current Russian Orthodox leadership. If you thinks this reflects hatred of Russia, then there are millions of anti-Putin/Kirill Russians who must also be self-loathing Russians since they hate Putin and some bemoan the Russian Orthodox leadership (which is why Protestantism seems to be growing among Russians).

Anyway, this is getting late for me and I have no wish to go to bed arguing.

 

[angelic06]

First of all I think someone should point out to you that the U word is not allowed here, in any context. I am not allowed to use it and neither are you.

Secondly, one seldom gets the complete story about events there, and there is plenty of disappointment and heartache to go around. Unfortunately there has been a bit of thuggery, all sides are undoubtedly guilty but I think that the Patriarch has it right in declaring that a four way commission should meet on it.

In other words, if a town has five ancestral parish temples and the population is 20% Orthodox, I don’t see why they should be shut out of all five. The same is true vice versa … if a town has five temples and the population is 20% Greek Catholic one of those should be guaranteed to the Greek Catholics, God bless 'em!

Unfortunately, all too often it has been a ‘winner take all’ kind of thing, and people are hurt. The way it has been going, the dispossessed group can even have a hard time securing a building permit /]

Five ancestral temples…?

Whoever owned the temples originally, whether Orthodox, Catholic, etc., absent the force of a gun, should reposess them, regardless of numbers of believers, unless this group sells or donates it to the other side. Otherwise, the government should offer adequate reparations, at least enough to build a temple as good or better than the one taken during the Communist, etc. era.

 

[Nine_Two]

Nine Two…this is getting ridiculous. I’m sorry you seem to think my points are hateful of Russians - that’s a really broad accusation on your part. I really believe there are millions of honest Russian Orthodox believers and ones like Father Gleb Yakunin who pointed out that in today’s leadership of the Russian Orthodox Church are still the same people who were in cahoots with the Soviet KGB back in the 1970s, Patriarch Kiril among them according to the Times of London (KGB codename Mikhailov).

Father Gleb Yakunin was imprisoned by the Soviets and funnily enough after insisting on today’s post-Soviet Russian Orthodox Church confronting the members of it who collaborated with the KGB, Yakunin was excommunicated by the Russian Orthodox Church after the Soviet collapse. There are many Russians like Gleb Yakunin, true Russian patriots and honest Christians - whom I respect.

For you to jump from my condemnation of today’s Russian Orthodox hierarchy and equate it with hatred of Russia is not even remotely close to anything I said. The Russian Orthodox hierarchy blames Ukrainian Catholics for its not meeting the Pope and any defense on our Church’s part is simple hatred of all Russians in your eyes right? This is absolute hogwash. Any criticism of the Russian Orthodox hierarchy and its until now close relationship with KGB colonel Putin is hatred of Russia it seems in your eyes.

I fervently support the pro-democratic Russian people currently protesting Putin’s KGB state in the hundreds of thousands. I criticize the Russian Orthodox Patriarch for up to now working alongside so closely with KGB colonel Putin in expanding Russian authoritarianism to other states. I am ant-Putin and anti-current Russian Orthodox leadership. If you thinks this reflects hatred of Russia, then there are millions of anti-Putin/Kirill Russians who must also be self-loathing Russians since they hate Putin and some bemoan the Russian Orthodox leadership (which is why Protestantism seems to be growing among Russians).

Anyway, this is getting late for me and I have no wish to go to bed arguing.

Your posts weren’t just attacking the “current hierarchy”, and I never said opposing the leadership makes you hate Russians. Your entire attitude toward Russia is what indicates it. The fact that you so quickly went to personal insults (not to mention baseless accusations of personal insults) indicates this is a highly emotional area for you - and those emotions seem entirely negative.
Maybe you don’t hate them, but that’s not what you show.

I’m not sure why you suddenly decided to bring Putin into this, he has nothing to do with anything.

I think this train of discussion is worthless, so I’ll just leave it there by reiterating what my point was:

Too many people blame the ROC for everything and then refuse to work with the ROC to fix the problem. It is a long standing problem I’ve noticed as long as I’ve been on this forum.
If they offer to work with you, and you refuse, then you’re at least as big a problem as they are.

 

[Nine_Two]

Whoever owned the temples originally, whether Orthodox, Catholic, etc., absent the force of a gun, should reposess them, regardless of numbers of believers, unless this group sells or donates it to the other side. Otherwise, the government should offer adequate reparations, at least enough to build a temple as good or better than the one taken during the Communist, etc. era.

If only it was that easy.

Two major problems with this is that some of the properties were sold to non-Church organizations, and that some have changed hands multiple times throughout history and it will be impossible to figure out true ownership based on the principles you suggest.

 

[Diak]

Is there even a canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church? Why is Russia such a confrol freak?!

No there is not, and such attacks don’t help matters.

What’s “Canonical”? Boris Godunov sequestering Jeremias, the Patriarch of Constantinople under house arrest until he elevated his own candidate, not elected by synod or any collegial process, to be the first Patriarch of Moscow with a service he created, not using the service of elevation known in Constantinople? (c.f. Fr. Borys Gudziak’s Harvard dissertation)

We are to accept that as canonical but +Filaret and a majority of the UOC-MP bishops leaving to reinvigorate the Metropolia of Kyiv (St. Peter Mohyla was never a Muscovite Metropolitan) which is the mother Metropolia of Moscow is worthy of “uncanonical” and their sacraments “without grace”?

Many years to His Beatitude Patriarch +Sviatoslav for having the Christian fortitude to dialogue with all of the parties, UOC-KP, UAOC, and UOC-MP. His election has given us in the UGCC a cause for hope and rejoicing to have such a vigorous leader.