patriotism in Church

[pnewton]

I think it’s best to keep nationalist music, political speech, flags and non-Catholic imagery OUT of Catholics churches. If not, where does it end? Himno Nacional Mexicano? Thanh Niên Hành Khúc? Lupang Hinirang?

I’m as patriotic as the next person, but after communion I feel the need to offer thanksgiving to God, not lip-sync O Canada.

Maggie

What is next? Dixie as the entrance processional?

I am not familiar with all these songs. Are they religious in nature? Are the lyrics a prayer to God?

I’m not American…

but I just wanted to say that I have some issues with singing the national anthem in the Mass. It’s secular, it’s not about God…

Yes, The Star-spangled Banner is a secular song through and through.

FYI - America the Beautiful is not a secular song by any definition I know, although it is not Catholic. It was written by two Congregatinalist and first published in a religious periodical. It has been in every hymn book I ever used since the old Broadman hymnal from the fifties. There are good arguments against its use, but.“It’s secular,” is not accurate.

 

[Newbie2]

But, a lot of the times, the focus is on the nation in these songs and not necessarily on God. Even though America the Beautiful does have some religious undertones to it, I still do not believe that such songs are appropriate for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. You don’t sing “Happy Birthday” to Jesus on Christmas. Whatever music is used within the confines of the Mass needs to be sacred.

Good grief. Do people actually pick apart songs line by line and in doing so deem them appropriate or not? (Rhetorical question)

So have any of you who object to America the Beautiful written Rome yet? Seriously, have you? If it’s that much of a problem, why not? And while you’re at it, have you written about all the other songs in the missel that you object to?

In all seriousness, if this bothers you so much, may I diplomatically suggest that you need to change your focus. If one is picking apart each and every song like this, it seems to me that one is not really focused on the Eucharist as one says one is.

 

[benedictgal]

Good grief. Do people actually pick apart songs line by line and in doing so deem them appropriate or not? (Rhetorical question)

So have any of you who object to America the Beautiful written Rome yet? Seriously, have you? If it’s that much of a problem, why not? And while you’re at it, have you written about all the other songs in the missel that you object to?

In all seriousness, if this bothers you so much, may I diplomatically suggest that you need to change your focus. If one is picking apart each and every song like this, it seems to me that one is not really focused on the Eucharist as one says one is.

You don’t need to be sarcastic, Newbie. Secular songs have no place in the liturgy. They don’t even play the Papal National Anthem during Mass. The only time you hear the Papal Anthem is right before the Urbi et Orbi address. If the Vatican doesn’t even have its own anthem played during the Mass, why should we?

 

[Newbie2]

You don’t need to be sarcastic, Newbie. Secular songs have no place in the liturgy. They don’t even play the Papal National Anthem during Mass. The only time you hear the Papal Anthem is right before the Urbi et Orbi address. If the Vatican doesn’t even have its own anthem played during the Mass, why should we?

So have you written Rome regarding this or not?

Seriously, sarcasm aside, if this is such a problem (what, July 4th falls on a Sunday every 6 years or so, taking into consideration the leap year), what has anyone in this thread done to address it besides complain about it?

Maybe that’s a topic for another thread, those who merely like to complain but take no action, but I’m a bit surprised that if it’s problem for you that you haven’t taken some sort of action, BG.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying not to do anything, but unless I missed it (and I’ll gladly stand corrected if I did), nobody who has complained about this has done anything to address it.

Now if people are saying “I’d prefer not to hear America the Beautiful for the recessional”, fine, that’s their opinion and they’re entitled to it. However, methinks it’s much different to claim that such music “does not belong at mass” and sit by and do nothing to correct it.

Am I wrong in recalling that in other threads you’ve said we have a duty to call to the attention of the Priest, Bishop and Rome (in that order) things that don’t belong in the mass, BG?

 

[CoffeeHound]

That is why the appropriate place for this is the General Intercessions, not in songs.

So, if something is said during the General Intercessions it cannot be said after Mass? Remember, we’re not talking about praying for something twice during Mass, we’re talking about praying for it once during Mass (G.I.) and once after Mass (recessional).

but I just wanted to say that I have some issues with singing the national anthem in the Mass. It’s secular, it’s not about God… the Mass should be all about Him. … I don’t mind singing the national anthem, just not in church.

It seems like some are creating a straw man, here. We’re not talking about singing the US national anthem, or reciting the pledge of allegiance - we’re talking about singing a song that asks God to bless America after Mass. Not during Mass, not instead of Mass, but after Mass.

Secular songs have no place in the liturgy. They don’t even play the Papal National Anthem during Mass. The only time you hear the Papal Anthem is right before the Urbi et Orbi address. If the Vatican doesn’t even have its own anthem played during the Mass, why should we?

For the 10th time: (1) we’re not talking about the secular national anthem and (2) we’re not talking about playing it during Mass.

 

[benedictgal]

So, if something is said during the General Intercessions it cannot be said after Mass? Remember, we’re not talking about praying for something twice during Mass, we’re talking about praying for it once during Mass (G.I.) and once after Mass (recessional).

It seems like some are creating a straw man, here. We’re not talking about singing the US national anthem, or reciting the pledge of allegiance - we’re talking about singing a song that asks God to bless America after Mass. Not during Mass, not instead of Mass, but after Mass.

For the 10th time: (1) we’re not talking about the secular national anthem and (2) we’re not talking about playing it during Mass.

America the Beautiful is still a secular song, as is “God Bless America.” It’s a song directed towards the country, not necessarily towards God. Irving Berlin wrote “God Bless America”. It was never meant for singing in a church, Catholic or Protestant. In fact, Kate Smith had it as her signature song. It was first sung in a motion picture.

Again, the proper place for intercessions for the country are at the General Intercession. The Mass needs to focus on God, not on anyone else.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

The song America the Beautiful is not necessarily a “secular song” since it was written specifically for the Congregational Church as a poem and later had music added to it by a Church organist. Apparently its been in various Church hymnals for almost a century.

 

[momor]

America the Beautiful is still a secular song, as is “God Bless America.” It’s a song directed towards the country, not necessarily towards God. Irving Berlin wrote “God Bless America”. It was never meant for singing in a church, Catholic or Protestant. In fact, Kate Smith had it as her signature song. It was first sung in a motion picture.

Again, the proper place for intercessions for the country are at the General Intercession. The Mass needs to focus on God, not on anyone else.

Please explain to me how using a song to thank God and ask God for His blessing on our country is not directed toward or focusing on God?

Who protects the protectors (military and first responders ) of our country?

 

[Newbie2]

America the Beautiful is still a secular song, as is “God Bless America.” It’s a song directed towards the country, not necessarily towards God. Irving Berlin wrote “God Bless America”. It was never meant for singing in a church, Catholic or Protestant. In fact, Kate Smith had it as her signature song. It was first sung in a motion picture.

Again, the proper place for intercessions for the country are at the General Intercession. The Mass needs to focus on God, not on anyone else.

So I ask again for those who have problems with this song being used during a recessional, what steps have you taken to correct it, or is it just a personal peeve (hey, we all have them )? I think that is an important distinction; peeve or “abuse”?

 

[zab]

A ZENIT DAILY DISPATCH
Non-liturgical Music in Cathedrals
ROME, 19 SEPT. 2006 (ZENIT)

… *Regarding patriotic songs: Some countries have special Mass formulas to commemorate national holidays such as Australia Day (Jan. 26) and Canada Day (July 1). Hence, it is not contrary to Catholic custom to invoke God’s blessing on a particular country by dedicating a national day of prayer.

The use of patriotic hymns on national holidays depends on prevailing custom as well as the text and theology of the hymns in question. Not all patriotic hymns are suitable for the context of the Eucharist and some texts may even express sentiments contrary to Catholic theology.

Likewise, although patriotism is a virtue, the upsurge of patriotic sentiments produced by such hymns is likely to distract our attention away from the holy mystery we are celebrating. Thus, if patriotic hymns are used at all, it is probably better to use them as closing hymns after the final blessing.
*

 

[magdalina]

I asked this earlier. Do you think the Papal flag should be out of the church? After all, the Vatican/Holy See is a country in and of itself.

Do you pray during the singing of the recessional? I have to wait until the singing is over.

In all honesty, I do not often think about the Vatican Flag nor have I ever heard Inno e Marcia PontificaleI performed in a Catholic Church. Now that you mention it though, I’m sure the flag would look splendid in the pastor’s private office.

Music can, in and of itself, be a prayer of thanksgiving. What is considered an appropriate encore for the Hank Williams Jr. Independence Day Extravaganza may be freakishly out of place in a Catholic recessional. We can have both, in their proper venue.

Maggie

 

[magdalina]

Political rally? Did your parish sing “Hail to Thee, Obama” or something similar?

The United States government is a large and powerful organization that not only has jurisdiction over individuals within the country, but also has the power to change the world for good (or bad). Praying that God watches over America (and any other similar organization) is not only a good thing to do, but a necessary thing.

Actually I arrived a little early for the EF Mass. The OF Mass before us used God Bless America for the recessional. Our EF Mass used Salve Regina for the recessional.

Take two seconds to think about what America has exported across the world in recent decades and it should be clear that some of the bad is really bad. Nationalistic music is polarizing because it’s designed to be. Save it for the town hall.

Maggie

 

[magdalina]

Originally posted by Maggie:
I think it’s best to keep nationalist music, political speech, flags and non-Catholic imagery OUT of Catholics churches. If not, where does it end? Himno Nacional Mexicano? Thanh Niên Hành Khúc? Lupang Hinirang?

I’m as patriotic as the next person, but after communion I feel the need to offer thanksgiving to God, not lip-sync O Canada.

I am not familiar with all these songs. Are they religious in nature? Are the lyrics a prayer to God?

Himno Nacional Mexicano, Thanh Niên Hành Khúc, Lupang Hinirang, and O Canada are the national anthems of United Mexican States, Republic of Vietnam, Republic of the Philippines and Canada. These nationalities and cultures represented in the Catholic Church in the USA.

The music is composed primarily to instill national pride.

Maggie.

 

[nominal_effect]

try telling this stuff to a military chaplain and the Military Diocese Bishop. I’ll bet you’ll get a different perspective.

 

[zab]

try telling this stuff to a military chaplain and the Military Diocese Bishop. I’ll bet you’ll get a different perspective.

Perhaps I give more credit to the Archbishop for the Archdiocese of Military Services than you do. Military chaplains are no different than individual priests who are not in the military. Unfortunately there will always be some who do not follow every rule. However, I doubt that the Bishpp (Archbishop) would approve of doing anything that goes against the norms for the liturgy. And I do not see why he would object to the statement from Rome saying, “The use of patriotic hymns on national holidays depends on prevailing custom as well as the text and theology of the hymns in question. Not all patriotic hymns are suitable for the context of the Eucharist and some texts may even express sentiments contrary to Catholic theology.”

and it is not difficult to understand and heed the suggestion:
“… *Thus, if patriotic hymns are used at all, it is probably better to use them as closing hymns after the final blessing.” *

 

[momor]

Take two seconds to think about what America has exported across the world in recent decades and it should be clear that some of the bad is really bad. Nationalistic music is polarizing because it’s designed to be. Save it for the town hall.

Maggie

I think I know why you object to America the Beautiful and I don’t think it’s because it’s being sung in Church.

 

[nominal_effect]

Perhaps I give more credit to the Archbishop for the Archdiocese of Military Services than you do. Military chaplains are no different than individual priests who are not in the military. Unfortunately there will always be some who do not follow every rule. However, I doubt that the Bishpp (Archbishop) would approve of doing anything that goes against the norms for the liturgy. And I do not see why he would object to the statement from Rome saying, “The use of patriotic hymns on national holidays depends on prevailing custom as well as the text and theology of the hymns in question. Not all patriotic hymns are suitable for the context of the Eucharist and some texts may even express sentiments contrary to Catholic theology.”

and it is not difficult to understand and heed the suggestion:
“… *Thus, if patriotic hymns are used at all, it is probably better to use them as closing hymns after the final blessing.” *

Well being someone who was preparing for becoming a chaplain I find it rather humorous. I don’t mean to act like I know the mind of chaplains or especially the bishop but the ones I know would not be prone to agree with you, not that there aren’t those that do. I also know that we sing one of these “inappropriate” songs at church. And being a 3rd degree Knight, I find it even more humorous that any American would be offended by such a meaningful song to my brothers in arms. I am less offended by this than the “Amazing Grace” and some other songs we sing. But being from a Protestant family also impedes my ability to identify with the comments on this thread. No offense intended, but if it is received in such a way you need to get a life. Being offended by honest statements is a sign of being mentally unstable in my opinion. When we have children dying at over 4,000 per day and this is the best someone can do. I’m just saying I find it ridiculous in comparison.

Have you not seen the Knights of Columbus masses? We do present the colors you know with a full color guard, a noble office in the KofC. I also believe you’d have a very difficult time down grading Venerable Fr. McGivney on this matter.

 

[zab]

Well being someone who was preparing for becoming a chaplain I find it rather humorous. I don’t mean to act like I know the mind of chaplains or especially the bishop but the ones I know would not be prone to agree with you, not that there aren’t those that do. I also know that we sing one of these “inappropriate” songs at church. And being a 3rd degree Knight, I find it even more humorous that any American would be offended by such a meaningful song to my brothers in arms. I am less offended by this than the “Amazing Grace” and some other songs we sing. But being from a Protestant family also impedes my ability to identify with the comments on this thread. No offense intended, but if it is received in such a way you need to get a life. Being offended by honest statements is a sign of being mentally unstable in my opinion. When we have children dying at over 4,000 per day and this is the best someone can do. I’m just saying I find it ridiculous in comparison.

Have you not seen the Knights of Columbus masses? We do present the colors you know with a full color guard, a noble office in the KofC. I also believe you’d have a very difficult time down grading Venerable Fr. McGivney on this matter.

As I posted earlier, for the entrance hymn this past Sunday, we sang, “Eternal Father, Strong to save” and for the recessional we sang “America the Beautiful”. Both were in our Music Issue and our pastor approved of both. And that seems to fall within the guidelines that I posted earlier. I don’t see any problem with that. I believe you may have misunderstood my post.

 

[benedictgal]

Please explain to me how using a song to thank God and ask God for His blessing on our country is not directed toward or focusing on God?

Who protects the protectors (military and first responders ) of our country?

My late grandfather and my late stepgrandfather, as well as several living uncles, were veterans. I find your insinuation rather insulting.

The fact remains that the main focus of these songs is about instilling national pride. God is not the main focus here; in fact, as I see it, He is an after-thought.

Songs used in Church should be sacred in nature and not secular.

 

[Contarini]

Catrus, not blasting you. But, did not the Israelites defend there land. Were they not proud of there land?

Actually the OP doesn’t criticize either of these things.

But parallels with the Israelites are flawed. The Israelites were God’s chosen people.

Do you believe that America is God’s chosen people? Isn’t that heretical? Isn’t the Church God’s chosen people of the New Covenant?

Edwin