Paul Ryan Discussion

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This release says RR is solid pro-life. However, a more recent release (see above post) says that RR do not oppose abortion in the case of rape. If you are going to vote for the lesser of two evils, it means that your vote is a prudential decision. There are going to be Democrats who will tell you that Obama is the lesser of two evils and that the RR team will do nothing to prevent abortions, but that abortions would increase under RR because of economic reasons. However, if you vote the Constitution Party, you are voting 100% pro-life, even in the case of rape. Should a Catholic choose the lesser of two evils, or should we choose the candidate who is 100% against evil with no reservations?
 
This release says RR is solid pro-life. However, a more recent release (see above post) says that RR do not oppose abortion in the case of rape. If you are going to vote for the lesser of two evils, it means that your vote is a prudential decision. There are going to be Democrats who will tell you that Obama is the lesser of two evils and that the RR team will do nothing to prevent abortions, but that abortions would increase under RR because of economic reasons. However, if you vote the Constitution Party, you are voting 100% pro-life, even in the case of rape. Should a Catholic choose the lesser of two evils, or should we choose the candidate who is 100% against evil with no reservations?
First, we should not choose the candidate who has a solidly pro-abortion personal history and whose party platform is solidly and unequivocally pro-abortion.

We know that there are only two tickets with a reasonable hope of winning the election, either Obama/Biden or Romney/Ryan. Choosing any third party candidate would merely have the effect of diluting the vote for one or the other.

Consequently any attempt to move pro-life votes away from Romney / Ryan to a 3rd party simply increase the chance of putting the most solidly pro-abortion Obama ticket into office.

It’s pretty simple. Following Catholic moral guidelines, I cannot vote for Obama. I have the choice of either voting GOP or helping to elect Obama by voting 3rd party. That would not be a prudent decision.
 
This release says RR is solid pro-life. However, a more recent release (see above post) says that RR do not oppose abortion in the case of rape. If you are going to vote for the lesser of two evils, it means that your vote is a prudential decision. There are going to be Democrats who will tell you that Obama is the lesser of two evils and that the RR team will do nothing to prevent abortions, but that abortions would increase under RR because of economic reasons. However, if you vote the Constitution Party, you are voting 100% pro-life, even in the case of rape. Should a Catholic choose the lesser of two evils, or should we choose the candidate who is 100% against evil with no reservations?
Your question has been answered several times. I posted direct quotes from a Cardinal and an Archbishop. A Catholic can vote for RR in good conscience. They can also throw their vote away on the Constitution party if they want. They can not vote for Obama.
 
Meltzerboy, where did this come from? The Obama campaign is trying desperately to avoid the subject of his abject failures so many of his pet projects that he’s trying to focus the campaign on fluff…Romney’s tax returns, offshore accounts, he even brought up the dog on the car again!

Now if Obama WERE speaking about significant issues such as the increasing debacle in Afghanistan or treatment of returning troops you might have a point. He’s not. When was the last time he even MENTIONED Afghanistan? We’ve had a rash of terrible betrayals by Afghani police and military. Not a peep from the White House. What’s he said about supporting returning soldiers?

Let’s see the last interviews he did he was asked about what was on his iPod, what kind of chili he likes, what superpower would he like to have…I’d call that FLUFF wouldn’t you?

Lisa
Lisa, it came from my misinterpretation of Paul’s comment that everything except abortion is fluff. As Paul explained, he wasn’t referring to serious issues, but rather to those you mentioned, such as Romney’s tax returns and the unfortunate Seamus.
 
But it is not a matter of two choices and the lesser of two evils. Both OB and RR support intrinsic evil. But there are third party candidates who do not. For example, I think that Virgil Goode of the Constitution party opposes abortion in all cases, unlike the RR team.
Do we want our laws governing abortion/sanctity of life to reflect the Obama disregard for them, or do we want to come much, much, closer to the ideal of the catholic church? Do we want a president diametrically opposed to the Catholic position on sanctity of life, or do we want a president who 80-90% agrees with the catholic church on the fundamentals? I think the question is a no-brainer.

(oh, and a vote for Virgil Goode or any 3rd party candidate is a vote to keep Obama in office and continue the pro-abortion policies).

Ishii
 
But it is not a matter of two choices and the lesser of two evils. Both OB and RR support intrinsic evil. But there are third party candidates who do not. For example, I think that Virgil Goode of the Constitution party opposes abortion in all cases, unlike the RR team.
If everyone were to follow your advice, we would be sending the right message at least; and the guy might have a small chance at winning. Unfortunately human psychology of following everyone else will prevent this and thus the problem perpetuates. .

I’ll definitely look into Virgil Goode. Thanks.
 
Do we want our laws governing abortion/sanctity of life to reflect the Obama disregard for them, or do we want to come much, much, closer to the ideal of the catholic church? Do we want a president diametrically opposed to the Catholic position on sanctity of life, or do we want a president who 80-90% agrees with the catholic church on the fundamentals? I think the question is a no-brainer.

(oh, and a vote for Virgil Goode or any 3rd party candidate is a vote to keep Obama in office and continue the pro-abortion policies).

Ishii
Will a vote for RR stop abortion? Did Bush stop abortion or did Reagan stop abortion? By voting for RR, you wil continue many of the present policies as they have shown that they are not against abortion in certain circumstances, such as rape. However, the Constitution Party has taken a stand of 100% against evil. Why vote for evil, even if it is the lesser of two evils, it is still intrinsic evil. Why pull the lever to support evil, when you can vote for someone who is 100% pro-life even in the case of rape?
Here is what Virgil Goode stands for: “Abortion: In the United States House of Representatives, I had a consistent pro-life voting record and in 2008 the National Right to Life Political Action Committee commended me “for your 100 percent pro-life voting record throughout your twelve years of service in the U.S. House of Representatives”. As President I would continue to oppose abortion and would submit a budget to Congress with zero funding for planned parenthood and any other similar entities.”
Paul Ryan is definitely pro-life, but I am puzzled by this statement from the RR campaign that RR would not oppose abortion in the case of rape. Perhaps we will have to wait and see how this plays out. A life is a life and so abortion would be wrong even in such a case.
 
Will a vote for RR stop abortion? .
No. Did I ever say it would? Quit with the strawman arguments please- they’re silly.
Did Bush stop abortion or did Reagan stop abortion? .
No, did I ever say they did? Go back and read my post.
By voting for RR, you wil continue many of the present policies as they have shown that they are not against abortion in certain circumstances, such as rape. However, the Constitution Party has taken a stand of 100% against evil. .
Hooray for the Constitution party! And they will get less than 1% of the vote!

Question for you, Joe Bowen: Do you want Romney and Paul Ryan choosing the next two or three supreme court justices or Obama choosing them?

Ishii
 
If everyone were to follow your advice, we would be sending the right message at least; and the guy might have a small chance at winning. Unfortunately human psychology of following everyone else will prevent this and thus the problem perpetuates. .

I’ll definitely look into Virgil Goode. Thanks.
Yes, send the “right message” while Obama stacks the supreme court with pro-abortion justices. The most pro-abortion president in our history has already given us two justices. Do you want two more from him? If so, vote for the constitution party. If not, vote for Romney/Ryan.

Ishii
 
Do we want our laws governing abortion/sanctity of life to reflect the Obama disregard for them, or do we want to come much, much, closer to the ideal of the catholic church? Do we want a president diametrically opposed to the Catholic position on sanctity of life, or do we want a president who 80-90% agrees with the catholic church on the fundamentals? I think the question is a no-brainer.

(oh, and a vote for Virgil Goode or any 3rd party candidate is a vote to keep Obama in office and continue the pro-abortion policies).

Ishii
Since this is a Catholic Forum, most members, who are Catholic, would want precisely what you say. However, a minority of Catholics, as well as some members of other religious beliefs or of no religious belief, would not want either political party to follow exclusively any one religion’s teaching regarding such personal and family issues that involve life (abortion), love (gay marriage), or death (euthanasia). I know I don’t want non-Jews (or even all Jews) to follow Judaism’s teachings on abortion, which are not the same as those of the Catholic Church, nor the same as Islam’s beliefs, nor those of Quakers or Hindus. I would not want the government to legislate by means of restrictions one particular set of moral values regarding abortion, which the GOP Party–in particular Paul Ryan, as well as other members of Congress–wishes to do. It seems odd to me that the GOP, which champions small government and governmental non-interference in the economic domain, wants to micro-manage personal and religious issues of life, love, and death, in which there are a variety of reasonable religious as well as secular points of disagreement. OTOH, I believe it is equally wrong for the government to violate the practice of Catholics’ religious beliefs, as in the instance of forcing Catholic adoption agencies to allow gay couples to adopt or forcing Catholic institutions to administer contraceptive devices. We must ensure religious liberty for all religions, including the majority; however, we must not impose the majority religion’s moral values on everyone in a pluralistic and free society.
 
No. Did I ever say it would? Quit with the strawman arguments please- they’re silly.

No, did I ever say they did? Go back and read my post.

Hooray for the Constitution party! And they will get less than 1% of the vote!

Question for you, Joe Bowen: Do you want Romney and Paul Ryan choosing the next two or three supreme court justices or Obama choosing them?

Ishii
So we should not take a stand against evil, but only choose the lesser of two evils? It seems like the morally correct thing to do is to be against intrinsic evil and not to compromise with Satan. 1+1 = 2 and it is wrong to compromise and say oh well, I can go along with 1+1 = 1.9
 
I know I don’t want non-Jews (or even all Jews) to follow Judaism’s teachings on abortion, which are not the same as those of the Catholic Church, nor the same as Islam’s beliefs, nor those of Quakers or Hindus. I would not want the government to legislate by means of restrictions one particular set of moral values regarding abortion.
It sounds as if you want to make abortion strictly a personal choice, which is what it is now: abundantly available. What’s wrong with suggesting the Jewish position for all of society? It is certainly more moral, more thoughtful, than what we have now. What a Jew would be saying is not, “You must do it my way OR ELSE,” but rather, “Here is what I strongly recommend; this is what I consider moral, and I am choosing a candidate who reflects that morality, because abortion is a decision which involves more than just the mother, or even the couple; it impacts society to have a casual attitude toward life and death. As Jews, we believe that society (not just Jews) should have higher standards of life and death than what is currently operative in this country.”

There are many legislative proposals & private policies out there that cannot accommodate all religious beliefs. A decision reflecting a unity of purpose must be made. So, for example, a hospital may allow a variety of medical responses about certain eventualities, in concert with what the patient/family desires, but it will stop short of what the hospital considers unethical even if the family were to choose such an option, and consider such an option their “private morality.”

There are too many behaviors and decisions in society which are not mere private matters. And the laws we currently have reflect certain ultimate standards of behavior, even though they don’t cover, of course, all behavior. There is a point in society at which we can, and should, say No. And there are not a dozen different “no’s” we can have, depending on one’s religion. Choices have to be legislated which will have a degree of uniformity for all religions.
 
It sounds as if you want to make abortion strictly a personal choice, which is what it is now: abundantly available. What’s wrong with suggesting the Jewish position for all of society? It is certainly more moral, more thoughtful, than what we have now. What a Jew would be saying is not, “You must do it my way OR ELSE,” but rather, “Here is what I strongly recommend; this is what I consider moral, and I am choosing a candidate who reflects that morality, because abortion is a decision which involves more than just the mother, or even the couple; it impacts society to have a casual attitude toward life and death. As Jews, we believe that society (not just Jews) should have higher standards of life and death than what is currently operative in this country.”

There are many legislative proposals & private policies out there that cannot accommodate all religious beliefs. A decision reflecting a unity of purpose must be made. So, for example, a hospital may allow a variety of medical responses about certain eventualities, in concert with what the patient/family desires, but it will stop short of what the hospital considers unethical even if the family were to choose such an option, and consider such an option their “private morality.”

There are too many behaviors and decisions in society which are not mere private matters. And the laws we currently have reflect certain ultimate standards of behavior, even though they don’t cover, of course, all behavior. There is a point in society at which we can, and should, say No. And there are not a dozen different “no’s” we can have, depending on one’s religion. Choices have to be legislated which will have a degree of uniformity for all religions.
Practically speaking, I think you’re correct in that the government cannot please every religion and every personal viewpoint. But I still believe the less interference between religion on governmental policy and the reverse, the better. I realize abortion is probably the most sensitive issue for Catholics, but even though for many Catholics it is a moral imperative, in my view, it should remain a personal decision dependent on the woman, the members of her family, and their own moral and religious values. I would not even want to recommend what another family should do in situations such as this or in those involving the mercy-killing of a loved one. It is none of my business and none of the government’s business. However, when people’s religious liberties are being restricted by the government, I believe it is my business to protest such restrictions however I can.
 
Encouraging pointless third-party voting is just a Democrat tactic to cause prolife people waste their votes and thereby help Obama. A third party vote is a vote for abortion, embryonic vivisection and homosexual “marriage”.
 
So we should not take a stand against evil, but only choose the lesser of two evils? It seems like the morally correct thing to do is to be against intrinsic evil and not to compromise with Satan. 1+1 = 2 and it is wrong to compromise and say oh well, I can go along with 1+1 = 1.9
I’ll try again:

Question for you, Joe Bowen: Do you want Romney and Paul Ryan choosing the next two or three supreme court justices or Obama choosing them?

Please answer.

Ishii
 
I’ll try again:

Question for you, Joe Bowen: Do you want Romney and Paul Ryan choosing the next two or three supreme court justices or Obama choosing them?

Please answer.

Ishii
He seems like an Obama man.
 
Practically speaking, I think you’re correct in that the government cannot please every religion and every personal viewpoint. But I still believe the less interference between religion on governmental policy and the reverse, the better. I realize abortion is probably the most sensitive issue for Catholics, but even though for many Catholics it is a moral imperative, in my view, it should remain a personal decision dependent on the woman, the members of her family, and their own moral and religious values. I would not even want to recommend what another family should do in situations such as this or in those involving the mercy-killing of a loved one. It is none of my business and none of the government’s business. However, when people’s religious liberties are being restricted by the government, I believe it is my business to protest such restrictions however I can.
Meltzerboy, one thing to consider with respect to this and your previous post is that life issues are NOT religious only. There are atheists, agnostics, and people of all faith or no faith at all who see abortion as the murder of innocent human beings. In the same tradition where those with power have stood for the weak, whether in the area of slavery, child abuse, women’s rights (I am talking issues in the Middle East not bra burning), or frankly Meltzerboy those who stood with the Jews during Hitler’s rise to power and his demented philosophy of murdering those he thought inferior, please reconsider both your inconsistent approach to abortion and please disconnect the protection of human life and human rights from ANY religion.

I am not pro-life because I am Catholic. I became pro-life by a lot of soul searching where I could not possibly hold two completely opposite positions, that weak and defenseless human beings whether unborn, children, the disabled, the terminally ill could be treated as less than human but those more ‘perfect’ only were accorded those rights. You of all people, as a Jew should be so sensitive to the issues of “might makes it right” which is the ONLY POSSIBLE “defense” for abortion or “mercy killing.”

I truly do not know how any thoughtful human being could support Obama with his disgraceful record of allowing the murder of even BORN children. Please think about his Meltzerboy, you are better than those who pass on the decision to kill as “someone else’s business.”

Lisa
 
I’ll try again:

Question for you, Joe Bowen: Do you want Romney and Paul Ryan choosing the next two or three supreme court justices or Obama choosing them?

Please answer.

Ishii
Like I asked, isn’t it is better not to shake hands with Satan and compromise with intrinsic evil. Why not oppose intrinsic evil 100% and vote for Virgil Goode?
 
Like I asked, isn’t it is better not to shake hands with Satan and compromise with intrinsic evil. Why not oppose intrinsic evil 100% and vote for Virgil Goode?
Because it could lead to an Obama victory. Goode has zero chance of becoming president.

I do think that eventually the Democrat party will implode. Then will be the time, not now.
 
Because it could lead to an Obama victory. Goode has zero chance of becoming president.

I do think that eventually the Democrat party will implode. Then will be the time, not now.
So the end justifies the means? The end is removing Obama from office, and the means is compromising with intrinsic evil?
 
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