People please help me with this one before I go insane

[patrick457]

No, I will not keep my mouth closed. I am a defender o fmy faith until the day I die. Unlike people who don’t stick up for their Catholic church, I cannot sit there and be ridiculed by anyone. I will say what I know and that’s that.

I really laud your eagerness to defend the Faith here (may other Catholics have the same zeal as you ) but part of the battle is knowing when to speak and when to keep your mouth shut.

If she ever brings up the topic again, then go on and show her the Truth and do it with charity; that way, you won’t reescalate into a full-fledged flaming war again.

‘You can catch more flies with a spoonful of honey than with a barrel of vinegar’, St. Francis de Sales once said.

If you can’t show her what the Catholic Church is about by word, then do so in deed.

 

[Righteousone]

I really laud your eagerness to defend the Faith here (may other Catholics have the same zeal as you ) but part of the battle is knowing when to speak and when to keep your mouth shut.

If she ever brings up the topic again, then go on and show her the Truth and do it with charity; that way, you won’t reescalate into a full-fledged flaming war again.

‘You can catch more flies with a spoonful of honey than with a barrel of vinegar’, St. Francis de Sales once said.

If you can’t show her what the Catholic Church is about by word, then do so in deed.

Yes I agree, but these people are taught to speak over you and I wasn’t going to allow that. It’s ok, she’s already called me 3 times out of guilt and out of the fact that what if I am right?

 

[ChristianRoots]

I’m not a Catholic but an Anglican, and according to my tradition there is no infallibly revealed truth outside of Scripture.

Hmmm…How do you infallibly know which books of the Bible belong in Scripture in the first place? Scripture doesn’t say anything about it.

For example, none of the Gospels claim to be the inspired word of God. How is it then that these books became part of the New Testament?

Was it a “tradition of men” that allowed them to be placed in the canon? If not, then what is your reasoning for their placement and how do you know this infallibly?

 

[EasterJoy]

No, I will not keep my mouth closed. I am a defender o fmy faith until the day I die. Unlike people who don’t stick up for their Catholic church, I cannot sit there and be ridiculed by anyone. I will say what I know and that’s that.

“until she brings it up again”…that’s all I said. I didn’t say you should let anyone speak over you or stay silent while falsehood is being passed off as the truth.

Oh, well, if you can either believe the line about pearls before swine, or you can learn it the hard way. I’m thinking that before the day you die you will learn that there is a day for shaking the dust from your feet…unless you have an unfortunate accident with an annoyed pig before that.

And, by the way, if someone starts apologizing and you immediately chime in with, “…don’t be mad at me…” well, don’t expect to be declared a martyr for the faith if she takes you out. (St. Peter will probably let you in, but he’ll roll his eyes. “Ah, another Mr. Truth! Why didn’t you just tip her off that the color she was wearing made her look fat, while you were at it!” )

 

[LRThunder]

Contarini;354496:

infallibly

know which books of the Bible belong in Scripture in the first place? Scripture doesn’t say anything about it.

For example, none of the Gospels claim to be the inspired word of God. How is it then that these books became part of the New Testament?

Was it a “tradition of men” that allowed them to be placed in the canon? If not, then what is your reasoning for their placement and how do you know this infallibly?

But where in Scripture does it say that Scripture is the final authority on matters like canon?

Around and around we can go.

 

[Brady_W]

“you can win an argument, and lose a soul”

Patrick Madrid

I remember debating a protestant over the same issues presented in this thread, and I had talked him down to where he couldn’t refute anything I said, but he wasn’t about to believe me. I was telling some friends about it at the Catholic Campus Center, and the priest overheard me. He asked me if our debate generated Heat or Light. and then he walked away. He had a good point.

Any professional apologist will tell you the point is not to win the argument. Its to plant the seeds of truth, and hopefully they will sprout and grow under God’s grace.

Even if you are right, there’s not to many people that will admit that to your face, at least not right away. You have to let them take it home, research it, pray about it, and let God handle the rest.

 

[Pier]

Remember, too, that the Bible teaches that we will be persecuted for His sake…

I learned a long time ago, that when a Protestant launches an unprovoked angry verbal attack against me concerning our religion, it is because that is what they have been taught, and told, to do.

Such an abyssmal waste of time - think of all the energy they’re wasting, when they could be doing something useful, like God’s work. Of course we are beholden to pray for their misguided souls - from a distance, preferably (at least, initially ). Eventually they listen, and learn.

Pray for patience.

 

[Elric]

Today I had a debate with a Protestant from a church called “The Bridge of Christ” or something like that. She said that I was crazy in telling her that her bible came from the Catholic church, that it was compiled by the Roman Pontiff in 397 A.D. at the Councl of Carthage.
Well, I never heard such hatred toward me with her name calling and saying that I was the one who was a kook for saying this. She went on and on, quoting Scripture, everything was the bible, bible, bible. I tried to tell her about the Catacombs with their early church writings on the wall from the saints, and about the Early Church Fathers. She simply called me a f------jerk and said satan was attacking me. Even tho I told her sola scripture was not biblical, she refused to think anything else. She was so angry that I couldn’t believe she could act as she did. I was calm and just told her historical facts, then she said “screw history”. What else can convince her that our church is the one and only church? I am xhausted from telling her the same old thing, you know, 2,000 years in existence, unbroken link…is there anything else I can do to basically shut her up and start thinking about it?
Please don’t say it’s hopeless, i will see her again. Thanks.

I believe that she was behaving over the top in your discussion with her, I also believe that she did fell guilty for her behavior towards you as well as her language. I think that she should feel guilty for the way that she acted, it was wrong.

I also believe that you are not telling the whole story and that you most certainly had a part to play in her disgracful preformance.

No matter what part you played you really should have ended the “discussion” long before its actual ending (Probably when the shouting or the name calling started). Its pretty obvious that there was no discussion or “defending of faith” going on when behavior like that starts happening.

 

[lampstand]

It’s really a shame that someone would curse at you. I hope that woman reads some history books.

 

[Righteousone]

People, please stop telling me that I provoked her, or that I’m not telling the whole story. As God as my judge, she acted like a demon when I told her where her bible comes from. Do you think any Protestant would be happy after hearing that? Apparently she is being taught hatred against the Catholic church and they probably tell her to talk over anyone who even mentions the Catholics and their teaching. Anyway, it was NOT about winning an arguement, but telling the truth about my Catholic church.

 

[Righteousone]

It’s really a shame that someone would curse at you. I hope that woman reads some history books.

Well, before she cursed and her face was beat red she was a quiet person. I’ve had coffee with her before and her continuous rant about “The Rapture” and other “Protestant” comments, compelled me to FINALLY speak up. Yes everyone, I had patience a few times beforeand I couldn’t take it anymore. Then I let her have it, but in the most calming way possible. I had it planned. But nothing I said was not true. That’s the whole point, she should be mad at God for choosing the Catholic church to give her the bible.

 

[elt1956]

Yes I agree, but these people are taught to speak over you and I wasn’t going to allow that. It’s ok, she’s already called me 3 times out of guilt and out of the fact that what if I am right?

I doubt that she thinks you are “right” so quickly. I think she just wants your friendship. Be thankful for that. Peace.

 

[Kay_Cee]

No, I will not keep my mouth closed. I am a defender o fmy faith until the day I die. Unlike people who don’t stick up for their Catholic church, I cannot sit there and be ridiculed by anyone. I will say what I know and that’s that.

If you think she’s calm enough now to have a rational discussion, you might want to gently bring up the subject again. Tell her you are open to hearing the truth, and you are sure that she, as a good Christian, is open to hearing it as well.

(This, BTW, is a strategy that has never failed me. Not once has a person ever disagreed with me when I slip a compliment into the discussion. I mean, she’s not going to tell you “No, I’m not a good Christian” or “No, I’m not open to hearing the truth.”)

Then ask her where the Bible came from. Ask her who decided which books should be in it, and when that decision was made. (For example, someone decided the gospel of Matthew belongs in the Bible and the gospel of Thomas doesn’t.) At the very least, this should get her thinking about it.

If she turns the question around on you, just say, "Well, I always heard the Catholic Church put it together. (Notice that this way it’s not you vs. her. It’s “what I heard” vs. her.) Tell her that if you’re wrong, you want to know. But, of course, in order to “prove you wrong,” she’ll have to research the subject.

Always, always, always frame things in the form of a question. Not only does it put the burden of proof on her, it’s far less threatening. You’ll also force her to examine the reasons for her beliefs.

And if she tells you something that sounds off, just say you want to look into it and get back to her about it later. Then bring it here. There are many knowledgable Catholics who can help you learn how to answer any objection she might raise.

I also highly recommend the free downloads at: biblechristiansociety.com/download

Start with the very first one, “Apologetics for the Scripturally Challenged.” This discusses techniques for engaging in Catholic apologetics. At the very least, give this one a listen before you engage her in discussion again.

Hope this helps!

 

[Righteousone]

This most certainly helps as others have helped me here…I cannot say “I heard”, it’s just not right. I must say “it is an historical fact”…
If she can’t face the truth, it isn’t my problem.

 

[Kay_Cee]

This most certainly helps as others have helped me here…I cannot say “I heard”, it’s just not right. I must say “it is an historical fact”…
If she can’t face the truth, it isn’t my problem.

Of course it’s an historical fact, but it would be better if she discovered that for herself.

If you prefer, say “Everything I’ve seen tells me the Catholic Church put the Bible together.” That’s true, isn’t it?

What do you hope to accomplish by shoving a historical fact in her face? Do you think she’s going to smack her forehead and say, “Wow! You were right all along!” especially if this is in front of other people she knows?

St. Peter tells us, “Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence.”

Please try putting yourself in her shoes, especially since you already know how emotionally she reacts when confronted with something that contradicts beliefs she cherishes. You’re about to turn her world upsidedown, so please be considerate enough of her feelings to allow her to come to the truth in a private moment, not one that will cause her embarrassment, especially in front of others who probably witnessed the diatribe she gave earlier.

I’m afraid that shoving that fact in her face will cause her to be immediately defensive. And if she’s like that, she’s not going to consider the truth of Catholicism.

Yeah, you might win the argument. You might show everyone there you were right and she was wrong.

But you could lose her soul doing it.

 

[Righteousone]

The girl use to be Catholic…can you believe it? For some reason, her ‘church’ is easier (she said so), therefore everything else isn’t. She even goes door to door in the roughest neighborhoods.
I won’t say a word unless she is spreading false doctrines and lies about my holy Catholic church. Now she is babbling about the Mark of the Beast…I saw her today before church and she really is paranoid. Geez…what ARE these pastors teaching these poor misguided people??

 

[Righteousone]

BTW, she has already lost her soul to have had the truth in the Catholic church and then to turn away from it…Jesus said to know the truth and turn away to another is a sin.

 

[Kay_Cee]

BTW, she has already lost her soul to have had the truth in the Catholic church and then to turn away from it…Jesus said to know the truth and turn away to another is a sin.

What are you saying? Are you saying you won’t even bother trying to guide her back to the Catholic Church?

Which is more important to you: your defense of the Church or her immortal soul?

 

[thirdn6]

… first, there shall be falling away (maybe for lack of knowledge about the Catholic faith or spirituality)… then disobedience and pride sets in (maybe because of guilt)… then emptiness and nothingness… then sympathy with the devil (false teachers like ravening wolves in our midst always ready to devour even the very elect).

I always tell and remind my sis and bros to ALWAYS talk to a priest before thinking about leaving the Catholic church.

Thank God even I was a lapsed Catholic for a very long time I did not leave the faith and now through His mercy and grace I am back home!

By all means, stay with her, befriend her… whatever. One more soul is just TOO precious to lose.

God Bless.

---

Be angry, and sin not… Give not place to the devil.
Ephesians 4:26-27 +

 

[Schultzz]

BTW, she has already lost her soul to have had the truth in the Catholic church and then to turn away from it…Jesus said to know the truth and turn away to another is a sin.

“Lost her soul”? Because she sinned? I kind of doubt it. When we try to apply apologetics to someone who obviously has been wounded, we are, in essence trying to remove whatever “faith” they may have left. When they in turn say things to us in anger, that they may not really mean, to continue to “preach” to them at that time would be fruitless. We don’t have to defend the Catholic church everytime someone challenges it. If the Catholic Church will “prevail against the gates of hell”, She won’t miss our not defending Her one time. This person needs time to heal and prayers. To confront her with the attempt to destroy what faith she has left will not win her back. Did not Jesus speak in “parables so all would understand”? If this person does not return to her original faith then that matter is between she and God. Any outright attempts to convert her will seem arrogant at best. If her views offend you, be courteous and leave. If her “apologetics” stun you, be genuinely courteous and talk about what the two faiths have in common. Bite your tongue and go your own way. And don’t forget to keep her in your prayers.