Perfect + Imperfect = ??

[Wildgraywolf]

Emad:

I am not calling humans evil, but human nature and the nature of God are two opposite things,

God didn’t create human nature to be in opposition to Him. We are God’s greatest creation and by His own Word humanity is “very good”. Humans can choose to be in cooperation (submission) or in opposition (rejection) with God, but there is nothing we humans can do to change our nature.

Gen 1:26 And he said: Let us make man to our image and likeness: and let him have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the air, and the beasts, and the whole earth, and every creeping creature that moveth upon the earth.

Gen 1:27 And God created man to his own image: to the image of God he created him: male and female he created them.

Emad:

Humans sleep, God doesn’t, humans eat, God doesn’t.

Are you sure?

Gen 2:2-3 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made: and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done. And he blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Gen 18:1-9 And the Lord appeared to him in the vale of Mambre as he was sitting at the door of his tent, in the very heat of the day. And when he had lifted up his eyes, there appeared to him three men standing near to him: and as soon as he saw them, he ran to meet them from the door of his tent, and adored down to the ground. And he said: Lord, if I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away from thy servant. But I will fetch a little water, and wash ye your feet, and rest ye under the tree. And I will set a morsel of bread, and strengthen ye your heart, afterwards you shall pass on: for therefore are you come aside to your servant. And they said: Do as thou hast spoken. Abraham made haste into the tent to Sara, and said to her: Make haste, temper together three measures of flour, and make cakes upon the hearth. And he himself ran to the herd, and took from thence a calf, very tender and very good, and gave it to a young man, who made haste and boiled it. He took also butter and milk, and the calf which he had boiled, and set before them: but he stood by them under the tree. And when they had eaten,…

Maybe God can eat if He wants too? After all what is impossible for God?

Emad:

How can He be both?

This is how:

Luk 1:30-37 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. And of his kingdom there shall be no end. And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren.

Because no word shall be impossible with God.

Emad:

God is all-Powerful humans aren’t.

Agreed and **THATS **how He can do all this stuff

 

[Emad]

Are you sure?

Gen 2:2-3 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made: and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done. And he blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Sleep is a creation of God and if it overtakes Him that means He is weaker than His creation. God can’t sleep.

Maybe God can eat if He wants too? After all what is impossible for God?

If God eats that means He depends on food to survive, thus the real God is food and not God Himself. Being God means that you depend on nothing and everything depends on you. You are the strongest and if God needs food that means food is stronger than Him.

Also can He also be eaten and digested if He wanted to? I believe that is impossible for God, maybe you don’t, but I do.

Luk 1:30-37 And the angel said to her: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father: and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever. And of his kingdom there shall be no end. And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man? And the angel answering, said to her: The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. And behold thy cousin Elizabeth, she also hath conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her that is called barren.

Because no word shall be impossible with God.

Well if your God can come out of a vagina, then he can come out of an anus too right? I guess that answers my question above. Sorry I don’t believe a true God would do that, nor can He do that as it doesn’t befit Him. Glory be to Him from what you associate to Him. He is High Above what you say.

Agreed and THATS how He can do all this stuff

So He can do anything? Do you realize that ANYTHING is a big word? Just think…anything. Also all-powerful doesn’t mean He can do everything. Someone might be very strong, but does that mean they can fit in a 2 inch hole in the ground?

 

[Emad]

Due to no one answering my question, except a few who told me that you can’t understand it and it’s a mystery, as well as my lack of time to keep coming here, I will no longer be posting on this thread. Thanks to everyone who tried and put in effort to answer my questions. God is One God, Above all shortcomings and blemishes. Glory be to Him, High He is above what many associate with Him. You are free to believe in whatever you want. That is your right. I pray God guides us to the best. Thanks to everyone, no hard feelings. :clapping:

 

[MariaG]

Emad:

Due to no one answering my question, except a few who told me that you can’t understand it and it’s a mystery, as well as my lack of time to keep coming here, I will no longer be posting on this thread. Thanks to everyone who tried and put in effort to answer my questions. God is One God, Above all shortcomings and blemishes. Glory be to Him, High He is above what many associate with Him. You are free to believe in whatever you want. That is your right. I pray God guides us to the best. Thanks to everyone, no hard feelings. :clapping:

Thanks to you also.

I know understand a little more about at least one Muslims ideas, specifically that somehow just the very act of being human makes one less than perfect.

I don’t understand how that can be since everything God made was good. I don’t understand how one can believe God made something less than perfect.

But that is just me. I see you are comfortable in your position of thinking God can make errors and create that which is less than perfect.

May God bless you and keep you safe.
Maria

 

[Emad]

MariaG:

Thanks to you also.

I know understand a little more about at least one Muslims ideas, specifically that somehow just the very act of being human makes one less than perfect.

I don’t understand how that can be since everything God made was good. I don’t understand how one can believe God made something less than perfect.

But that is just me. I see you are comfortable in your position of thinking God can make errors and create that which is less than perfect.

May God bless you and keep you safe.
Maria

I never said humans were imperfect, but they were created in a perfect fashion, but God didn’t intend for us to be perfect. Had He wanted that we would have been angels. Also humans aren’t perfect in the sense that their hearing isn’t perfect hearing, sight isn’t perfect sight etc. God gave us limited abilities. He didn’t make a mistake or something.

 

[MariaG]

Emad:

I never said humans were imperfect, but they were created in a perfect fashion, but God didn’t intend for us to be perfect. Had He wanted that we would have been angels. Also humans aren’t perfect in the sense that their hearing isn’t perfect hearing, sight isn’t perfect sight etc. God gave us limited abilities. He didn’t make a mistake or something.

The whole thread is how can God who is perfect be united with that which is imperfect, ie the incarnation of Christ who is fully God and fully human.

God being perfect, that would then mean you believe man to be imperfect. If the first was man was imperfect, God made an imperfect creation.

It was pointed out before that** limited does not equal imperfect**.

So if God did not make a mistake, how can Christ be the union of perfect God with imperfect human, which is the question of your thread?

How is man imperfect? God perfectly made man imperfectly? So in fact, since it was God’s intention to make an imperfect creation, it was perfectly made?

So you believe God intended to make man to be less than perfect? Is this your personal belief or a belief of Islam? Can you direct me to a site where I can look that up? I am having a hard time believing/understanding a group of people could think God intended to make man less than perfect. As well as how that a creation that is perfectly made can then be imperfect as the title of your thread implies?

Edit add on: I mean even if God intended to make man limited, less than perfect, then would not His creation still be perfect with no imperfections? So there is not a uniting of perfect and imperfect, but a uniting of perfect God with the perfect creation?

God Bless,
Maria

 

[inJESUS]

a simple question :

can God stay God but take a human body in addition? yes or no Emad?

you don’t know about the nature of Allah…you know he is One…and so do we…but what is the nature of this Oness Emad? Christianity has the answer to this nature, have you?

as to not understanding something but believing in it, do you understand “how” St. Mary got pregnant by the Holy Spirit? do you know “how” Jesus survived the cross according to Mohammad or what happened?

 

[jonfan]

Emad,
I asked you before if allah was in everything? You answered no. God is in everything and then he was Man Incarnate(as stated above). I understand GOD and allah are not the same. This might be difficult to understand from someone coming from a simpler Theology. But the answers for this question are posted above and on your other thread.

Take care,
Jon

 

[Emad]

The whole thread is how can God who is perfect be united with that which is imperfect, ie the incarnation of Christ who is fully God and fully human.

God being perfect, that would then mean you believe man to be imperfect. If the first was man was imperfect, God made an imperfect creation.

It was pointed out before that** limited does not equal imperfect**.

So if God did not make a mistake, how can Christ be the union of perfect God with imperfect human, which is the question of your thread?

How is man imperfect? God perfectly made man imperfectly? So in fact, since it was God’s intention to make an imperfect creation, it was perfectly made?

So you believe God intended to make man to be less than perfect? Is this your personal belief or a belief of Islam? Can you direct me to a site where I can look that up? I am having a hard time believing/understanding a group of people could think God intended to make man less than perfect. As well as how that a creation that is perfectly made can then be imperfect as the title of your thread implies?

Edit add on: I mean even if God intended to make man limited, less than perfect, then would not His creation still be perfect with no imperfections? So there is not a uniting of perfect and imperfect, but a uniting of perfect God with the perfect creation?

God Bless,
Maria

It’s not an issue of just imperfection, but shortcomings too. Limited eyesight means you have a shortcoming in seeing everything, God sees everything. Get it, so if he was human he doesn’t see everything and sees everything at the same time.

 

[Emad]

jonfan:

Emad,
I asked you before if allah was in everything? You answered no. God is in everything and then he was Man Incarnate(as stated above). I understand GOD and allah are not the same. This might be difficult to understand from someone coming from a simpler Theology. But the answers for this question are posted above and on your other thread.

Take care,
Jon

God is in everything? EVERYTHING?? Think of that word, please don’t force me to give examples, just use your imagination.

 

[Emad]

can God stay God but take a human body in addition? yes or no Emad?

Nope.

you don’t know about the nature of Allah

How do you know what I know and what I don’t?

Also I may not understand everything about God, but I certainly know he doesn’t relieve Himself. If you want to worship a God that does that go ahead, but I refuse to believe a true God would do that.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

Emad:

Sleep is a creation of God and if it overtakes Him that means He is weaker than His creation. God can’t sleep.

lol, perhaps not sleep, but on the seventh day God did rest. Why is sleeping a weakness? After all God did create it and nearly all of creation “sleeps”; therefore sleep is a good and holy thing. So, if you perceive sleeping as a weakness; and God created sleep do you not imply then that God must also be weak because He created weakness?

Emad:

If God eats that means He depends on food to survive,

Not necessarily…

Emad:

thus the real God is food and not God Himself.

Hmmm… Are you a pagan??? :bigyikes:

Emad:

Being God means that you depend on nothing and everything depends on you.

Agreed!

Emad:

You are the strongest and if God needs food that means food is stronger than Him.

God dosen’t need to eat to sustain Himself, but if He wants to who is to stop Him? God created everything even food for us to eat. Since God created us to eat and food for us to eat then they must be good and holy things. If you perceive eating as a weakness; and God created us to eat do you not imply then that God must also be weak because He created weakness?

Emad:

Also can He also be eaten and digested if He wanted to? I believe that is impossible for God, maybe you don’t, but I do.

Well, I for one am not going to place limits on what God can and cannot do. God is the only being anywhere that can make outrageous, impossible claims and have them all be true even if I can’t see, understand or like them.

This is called fath and it is within reach of humanity all you have to do is put forth the effort…

Emad:

Well if your God can come out of a vagina, then he can come out of an anus too right?

:bigyikes:

Emad:

Sorry I don’t believe a true God would do that, nor can He do that as it doesn’t befit Him. Glory be to Him from what you associate to Him. He is High Above what you say.

I see… you would choose to create a god or gods in your own image to meet your own expectecatons? A god who would cater to your beliefs and expectations is not God. If you are not challenged in your faith then you have none…

Emad:

So He can do anything? Do you realize that ANYTHING is a big word? Just think…anything. Also all-powerful doesn’t mean He can do everything. Someone might be very strong, but does that mean they can fit in a 2 inch hole in the ground?

For God all things are possible… If God can manifest Himself to Abraham as a “gentle breeze” and to Moses as a “buring bush” then I am not arrogant enough to put the Lord my God to the test.

 

[Faith101]

Wildgraywolf:

lol, perhaps not sleep, but on the seventh day God did rest. Why is sleeping a weakness? After all God did create it and nearly all of creation “sleeps”; therefore sleep is a good and holy thing. So, if you perceive sleeping as a weakness; and God created sleep do you not imply then that God must also be weak because He created weakness?

God does not sleep. We sleep because we get tired. We get tired b/c we are weak. God does not get tired, nor weak…do you agree? Then, why is God sleeping.

God dosen’t need to eat to sustain Himself, but if He wants to who is to stop Him? God created everything even food for us to eat. Since God created us to eat and food for us to eat then they must be good and holy things. If you perceive eating as a weakness; and God created us to eat do you not imply then that God must also be weak because He created weakness?

You said that if God wants to eat, He can eat, but that doesnt mean He is hungry. Did Jesus get hungry?

We were created weak…God did not mean for us to be perfect. For example, we lie…does God lie? No. We steal. Does God steal? No. We get tured. Does God get tired? No. We are not perfect, we are not like God. That is why He is God and we are His creation.

I see… you would choose to create a god or gods in your own image to meet your own expectecatons? A god who would cater to your beliefs and expectations is not God. If you are not challenged in your faith then you have none…

We dont create our own image of God, we are forbidden to do so. Everything that Emad has told you is within the context of what the Quran says (a revelation we believe *came * from God)…where God tells us who He is. Does He tell us everything? NNo. We have only receieved little of the knowledge. But we dont make things up.

To be challenged is to be tested throughtout your life. To be challenged is not, from a Muslims’ point of view, be presented with an idea of God that doesnt make sense.

 

[MariaG]

Emad:

It’s not an issue of just imperfection, but shortcomings too. Limited eyesight means you have a shortcoming in seeing everything, God sees everything. Get it, so if he was human he doesn’t see everything and sees everything at the same time.

You still do not understand the incarnation of Christ and the Catholic church’s position.

We DO NOT believe or teach that Christ gave up anything, or was limited in any way since He was still FULLY God. A perfect union of the perfect creation with the perfect and fully God. If God gave up anything, it would be a false teaching. But He gave up nothing. He was not God limited in a human body, not able to see everything. He was fully human and fully God with all of God’s abilities.

No limitations. God the Son gave up NOTHING. It was addition to not removal of.

God Bless,
Maria

You know, there comes in point in conversations that a person can say oh, I see I misunderstood what you believe. **I still don’t believe **XYZ, but it makes slightly more sense now. (ie, I see I was mistaken to think you taught God was limited in any way when He took on human form in the incarnation of Christ as you believe.)

 

[inJESUS]

Emad:

It’s not an issue of just imperfection, but shortcomings too. Limited eyesight means you have a shortcoming in seeing everything, God sees everything. Get it, so if he was human he doesn’t see everything and sees everything at the same time.

Emad, take a deap breath God was IN ADDITION a human…it is an addition, not substraction.

 

[Emad]

inJESUS:

Emad, take a deap breath God was IN ADDITION a human…it is an addition, not substraction.

God is God, God is better than humans, thus if you make Him human it doesn’t make Him better, but worse. It is an addition that was made up and associated to Him and subtracted from His Glory and majesty. If you say to a President of a big company that in addition to him being the president, he is also the guy who cleans toilets, is that an addition to his position or a subtraction?

 

[inJESUS]

can God stay God but take a human body in addition? yes or no Emad?

Nope. so you are saying that God can’t? so Allah in your opinion is limited? and why do you think God cannot take a body yet stay God? is it hard for the Creator of this world?

you don’t know about the nature of Allah

How do you know what I know and what I don’t? simple, from quran. It says : Allah is one, fine…there is nothing like Allah…fine…Allah has no physical sons, fine…Allah is just ecc…fine…But what is the nature of this oness? of this “nothing like him”?

Also I may not understand everything about God, but I certainly know he doesn’t relieve Himself. If you want to worship a God that does that go ahead, but I refuse to believe a true God would do that.

Jesus took a human body…do you expect a human body not to behave like one? do you think Jesus came to boast of being God or to give us the perfect example of a human being who does God’s wish?

You did not answer my question : can’t you believe in something even if you don’t understand it’s “how” ?

 

[inJESUS]

God is God, God is better than humans, thus if you make Him human it doesn’t make Him better, but worse.

i didn’t make Him a human…he took a human body…but you didn’t address the issue : it is an addition yet retaining divinity…what do you say about this?

it was explained before, shortcomings of man are not imperfections but man’s nature…Jesus became a perfect human nature…so imperfection is simply a false assumption…

It is an addition that was made up and associated to Him and subtracted from His Glory and majesty

irrelevant.

. If you say to a President of a big company that in addition to him being the president, he is also the guy who cleans toilets, is that an addition to his position or a subtraction?

false analogy…if you say to apresident, you are also afather, then it is correct.

 

[Emad]

INJESUS you came to this conversation a bit late, your asking the same questions many others asked and answers are available in this thread. This time I will answer your questions, but if you ask questions that were already answered in the future I will simply ask you to go back and look for them in the thread.

so you are saying that God can’t? so Allah in your opinion is limited? and why do you think God cannot take a body yet stay God? is it hard for the Creator of this world?

Yes God can only be God, He can’t be anything else. Not a human, dog, cat, food or anything else.

simple, from quran. It says : Allah is one, fine…there is nothing like Allah…fine…Allah has no physical sons, fine…Allah is just ecc…fine…But what is the nature of this oness? of this “nothing like him”?

Allah states that He can’t have a son in many places of the Quran. He says that He is Most High, He says that He is All Powerful, He says that He is Qayum, He says that He is Ghane, He says that He is Ale, Adheem, Khaliq, etc. So anything that takes away from these attributes isn’t part of Him. He states what He is, that also shows what He isn’t. He says He is Allah therefore He is Allah and not human or animal.

You did not answer my question : can’t you believe in something even if you don’t understand it’s “how” ?

Yes you can, but some things are just not acceptable to be part of God, it is common sense. For example I can’t understand how God looks, but I certainly know He doesn’t look deformed. This is not an issue of how God does things, it’s how can you say two opposite things exist in one being.

 

[Emad]

it was explained before, shortcomings of man are not imperfections but man’s nature…Jesus became a perfect human nature…so imperfection is simply a false assumption…

There is your answer, shortcomings, God doesn’t have any. If He was human he would have some.

false analogy…if you say to apresident, you are also afather, then it is correct.

This is another example where someone focuses on the example and not the point being made. What if you say to a father that he is also a mother?