Perhaps my time here is over

[Valke2]

Are you speaking to tradition then? That a person who’s familial tradition is Jewish, that person is better suited to Judaism by the fact that they were born into a family that is of that tradition?

I’m really not trying to make this complicated. Like any faith, what you are born into will have an effect. I am simply saying that it is obvious to me that Judaism works for Jews because if it didn’t they wouldn’t be practicing Judaism. Same argument for Christians or any other religion.

 

[Valke2]

But it is so clear in your OT that Jesus is the Messiah it isn’t funny.
Everything was and is said about Jesus, yet you still deny.

Let’s assume for a minute that you never heard of Jesus or Mary. Or that they didn’t exist. After reading the Torah and the Prophets, it would never occur to you that it was discussing Jesus. The only way one finds references to Jesus is if they first assume that Jesus was the Messiah and God and then from that assumption, go back to the texts and look for ways to validate that assumption.

I am not saying this is an improper way to read the Torah and Prophets. But it is a method which is completely alien to Judaism.

 

[Valke2]

As far as not being told about the NT in Hebrew school, causes me great concern. After all the OT tells of the NTand vice versa.

There are a lot of books that we could spend time comparing Torah to. Comparing it to the Quran would be just as valid as comparing it to the Christian Bible. That is not the purpose of Hebrew school. I’ve read the Torah a couple of dozen times now, and I’ve not found one single word in the Torah that tells of the Christian Bible.

 

[Catholic_Mike]

We don’t mind if believing in Jesus helps Gentiles. But it is not for US.

…

Please note I am NOT trying to convince Catholics not to be Catholics. Gentiles can worship in any religion they want.

I really don’t understand this point of view… and I’d like to. You know we believe Jesus is God, right? How can that be okay if he isn’t God? That would be blasphemy, wouldn’t it? And wouldn’t it be better if the whole world knew the truth about God?

 

[Catholic_Mike]

There are a lot of books that we could spend time comparing Torah to. Comparing it to the Quran would be just as valid as comparing it to the Christian Bible. That is not the purpose of Hebrew school. I’ve read the Torah a couple of dozen times now, and I’ve not found one single word in the Torah that tells of the Christian Bible.

I can understand that… in Catechism class we never discussed the Protestant Reformation and why we disagree with its new theology. Though honestly, I wish we did! From an education point of view I’d think that when advocating a belief system, it makes sense to talk about other major belief systems in disagreement or that are related.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I am interested in knowing how you convince people to come back to a religion that they have obviously rejected.

 

[Valke2]

I really don’t understand this point of view… and I’d like to. You know we believe Jesus is God, right? How can that be okay if he isn’t God? That would be blasphemy, wouldn’t it? And wouldn’t it be better if the whole world knew the truth about God?

I’m going to jump in here. As Jews, we believe (or should believe based on tradition and text) that God deals with other people in other ways. You can find Jews who would agree with your above post 100%. You can also find long discussions by some of our greatest rabbis about how Balaam was as great a prophet as Moses, because a just God would not limit his truth to Jews only (Balaam, as I am sure you know, was a non-jewish prophet).

 

[Valke2]

I can understand that… in Catechism class we never discussed the Protestant Reformation and why we disagree with its new theology. Though honestly, I wish we did! From an education point of view I’d think that when advocating a belief system, it makes sense to talk about other major belief systems in disagreement or that are related.

yes, but there’s only so much you can learn in a few hours every week.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I really don’t understand this point of view… and I’d like to. You know we believe Jesus is God, right? How can that be okay if he isn’t God? That would be blasphemy, wouldn’t it? And wouldn’t it be better if the whole world knew the truth about God?

Apparently Gentiles don’t have souls or something since they can believe whatever they want and God won’t care.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Let’s assume for a minute that you never heard of Jesus or Mary. Or that they didn’t exist. After reading the Torah and the Prophets, it would never occur to you that it was discussing Jesus.

Why would occur to us it if we are pretending we don’t know anything about Jesus? That doesn’t make a lot of sense. But after we know something about Jesus we can see the Tanach talks about him. Same would be true if you had a Messiah. If you didn’t know anything about yours, you wouldn’t know Tanach was about him either.

 

[po18guy]

Do you understand what a Jewish countermissionary is? We do NOT try to get Gentiles to leave their nonJewish religions, we simply try to RETURN Jews to the religion of their BIRTHRIGHT.

Jews, unlike Gentiles, have a DIVINE COVENANT with God, which is eternal. It is not the same as a “religion”, though it is seen that way by others.

Gentiles are free to adopt any religion they wish; this is because they do not have a Divine Covenant with God.

The Messiah will not come until all Jews are truly following the Torah God commanded us to follow. If they join pagan and other non-Jewish religions and stop keeping Torah, this will not happen.

If a Gentile TRULY loves the Jewish people as they often claim to, they will encourage all Jews to STAY JEWISH and keep Torah.

And, you understand that we fervently believe that Christ is the fulfillment of Judaism? Since we believe so, we are bound before the L-rd G-d of Israel to proclaim that to the nations. That is why we tell others of the joy we have found.

May the peace of the L-rd always be with you.

 

[Kaninchen]

I think that the extent to which Judaism and Christianity are related is grossly exaggerated.

 

[Harmony1988]

I only found this forum a few days ago, while doing an online Google for customs and legends surrounding Holy Week (I was looking up something my late mother had told me years ago).

That online search led me to this forum, where there was a thread about the subject I was researching.

I have to say that, until I came here, I had never once in my 48 yrs had a Roman Catholic proselytize me. That was a major reason why I have always felt far closer to Catholics than to Protestant fundamentalists (many of whom have disgusted me with their blatant attempts to proselytize me, including a “born again” nurse who had the nerve to try to missionize me in the hospital room where my mother lay terminally ill.)

I really thought Catholics were different, nicer, more respectful of the beliefs of others (at least in more modern times, anyway). And with many of you, that is the case.

What Christians don’t realize is, when you shove your beliefs onto others even after they clearly inform you they are not interested (and in fact, can adequately show why they don’t believe in your faith), you really turn people off.

I have worked with devout Catholics in both the pro-life and homeschool communities, and we have always gotten along so well. We have found much common ground on moral issues. And none have ever tried to proselytize me.

I find I am feeling differently about Catholics since being here, and I don’t like it. I want to believe that (most) Catholics are truly decent people who learned their lessons from the days of the Inquisition, and who believe in the American princple of respect for the religions of others.

But I think for me to return to the feelings I had previously, I need to leave this forum. I wish that were not true, but it seems it is.

I have been a countermissionary for almost 30 years. This means I have done volunteer work to get impressionable young Jews out of cults, and yes, out of mainstream Christian and other non-Jewish groups as well. We have had a very high success rate.

But I am also active in the ecumenical mvmt, which means I work to try to find common ground between Jews and Christians. Because of this, I work to help Jews understand Christianity, and to help Christians understand Judaism. There is too much hate and bigotry on BOTH sides, and I work to help end this.

But it won’t end until the “my religion is better than yours” business stops. I doubt that will happen any time soon here, so I have to say Shalom to you all.

Shalom aleichem/pax vobiscum,

Carol’s Daughter

Why is your signature the ‘I believe’ then? and on top of that, it’s in latin, which is associated with the catholic church.

Furthermore, you can’t just generalize like that about Catholics. Infact the vast majority of Catholics don’t even know how to evangelize, most haven’t read scripture in years and etc.

Whether you stay or leave, people will try to convert you. I don’t ever feel upset by people trying to convert me given that the time and place is appropriate, they do it with good intentions.

If someone tries and you aren’t happy, just say so, don’t build it up and then explode it on everyone.

Cheers

 

[HashemEchad]

I am interested in knowing how you convince people to come back to a religion that they have obviously rejected.

Perhaps in similar ways that CATHOLIC ANSWERS tries to convince former Catholics to return to a religion that they obviously rejected.

 

[HashemEchad]

Apparently Gentiles don’t have souls or something since they can believe whatever they want and God won’t care.

This is a totally erroneous assumption. In Judaism, men and women have different roles to play, just as in the world scheme of things, Jews and Gentiles have different roles to play.

Its not about souls, its about ROLES (hey, that rhymes!)

In Judaism, women are not OBLIGATED to pray at certain times of the day, the way men are. This is partly because women have the major duties of childrearing, which is of primary importance. Women do pray, and must pray, but they are able to do it at any time they are able, unlike men, who must pray three times a day at certain times.

Does this mean women do not “have souls”? NO.

Do you understand what it means to have different ROLES? And that this in no way implies inferiority?

 

[HashemEchad]

Have you heard of Edith Stein? She was a brilliant doctor, she studied Catholicism and became angry at her parents for not disclosing the life of Christ. She therefore became a Catholic nun, took the name of. Benedicta, then died at Auschwitz. She was an amazing person.
Ms. Stein apparently saw and read something that changed her life forever.
As far as not being told about the NT in Hebrew school, causes me great concern. After all the OT tells of the NTand vice versa. How can you really know or compare books if you don’t have an open mind about them?
As far as people trying to convert Jews, a lot of Evangelicals are doing this out there. Catholics don’t roam the streets trying to convert.
And because you know Hebrew, doesn’t mean your words are not interpreted differently either. .

Edith Stein by her own admission (I have read her writings), was an ATHEIST before becoming a Catholic, so I doubt you can claim her as a trophy Jew for the Catholic church. Any acsdemic knowledge she has would not matter either, because your Christian testament says, “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools”, right?

In my experience working with Jews who have returned to Judaism, I only remember one who had any adequate prior knowledge of Judaism before becoming Christian. In general, Jews who intermarry and Jews who convert out are incredibly ignorant of Judaism before they marry out or convert. Studies have even proven this.

Why does it bother you that the Christian testament is not taught in Hebrew school? We also don’t teach about the Bhagavad-Gita, the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Presbyterian Shorter Catechism, the Anglican Book of Common Prayer, or the Confessions of St Augustine. because for the most part (except where the history of Christian persecutions of the Jews comes up), THESE ARE ALL IRRELEVANT TO OUR FAITH.

You see, Christianity came out of Judaism, our faith did not come out of yours. So while it would be important for you to learn about Jewish ways, beliefs, etc to better understand your own Christian testament, it is not important for us to do the same.

 

[planter654]

If I may ask, to have been acting as a countermissionary for so many years to bring Jews back to Judaism, you must be convinced that Judaism has the truth, or aren’t you? (I don’t know whether you would think of an exclusivity or not, though…)

To have the truth is to believe in the truth— God! Worhip God! Obey his laws and commandments.

We are no longer under bondage! Jesus Christ has set us “free indeed”. “God is a living God”! Jesus Christ did not suffer in vain!

God did not force Adam and Eve to do his will. the Apostles did not force anyone to believe them! they spread the apostles to build up the church! Accept God’s word as truth and believe, obey his laws and commandments.

The choice is yours. But believe God loves you dearly, he sent his only son our Lord Jesus Christ who suffered the worst agony of death for our sins.The question is —How much do you love God?---- For God has shown us from the beginning how much he loves us!

No one has authority over you! Believe in God’s word and accept God’s word as truth or not!

God Bless

 

[HashemEchad]

First, I think someone is getting a little cranky.

What your are failing to address, and what has been asked of you several times with no response is, If a Jewish person converts to Christianity, then they weren’t a Spiritual Jew. Isn’t coming in here trying to get those people back to the Torah exactly what you are telling us not to do?

I personally have never seen anyone dragged to the Baptismal font. They are making the choice for themselves.

Many people convert from other religions because of simple conversations with another person. They find what they feel God is wanting for them.

If a person wants to leave Judaism, let them. Trying to push them to, or pull them back to Judaism isn’t going to help anyone.

Your motives are becoming more and more clear. You are here to try and get Catholics who were formerly Jewish to return to the Torah. While you’re at it, you’re telling us to not to talk faith with, baptize, confirm, or welcome into the Catholic church anyone who is Jewish.

Sorry, it doesn’t work that way. If someone wants to come to the Church, they are welcome.

Please note, I was able to type this post without using CAPS to emphasize my attitude, or tone.

Well, if this is the case then you surely won’t mind when I meet former Catholics involved in fundamentalism, and now I will encourage them to stay right where they are.

I used to urge them to rediscover their Catholic birthright, before turning their backs on it. I feel people owe it to themselves to TRULY learn and understand their birthright faith before throwing it away for another. I remember one fellow I met who had become a “Jack Chick” type after having been raised Catholic. He rediscovered Catholicism after a discussion with me, I simply told him he owed it to HIMSELF to TRULY learn his childhood faith before tossing it away.

But I won’t do that anymore, if what you say is true. Because evidently if someone walked away from Catholicism, it didn’t do anything for them. Forget the fact that they probably never TRULY knew it in the first place.

 

[HashemEchad]

Did you know that Latin is not the exclusive domain of the Catholic church? I had 4 years of Latin in PUBLIC school, and loved it.

Why did I use as my sig line the first line of the Credo of the Tridentine Mass? Note what it said: “I believe in ONE GOD, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth”. Although from the Catholic Mass, it is a statement that a Jew also agrees with. Note I stopped it before the “Et in unum dominum JC”…

It was an attempt by me at showing what Jews and Catholics DO have in common, but I see it was misunderstood.

Why is your signature the ‘I believe’ then? and on top of that, it’s in latin, which is associated with the catholic church.

Furthermore, you can’t just generalize like that about Catholics. Infact the vast majority of Catholics don’t even know how to evangelize, most haven’t read scripture in years and etc.

Whether you stay or leave, people will try to convert you. I don’t ever feel upset by people trying to convert me given that the time and place is appropriate, they do it with good intentions.

If someone tries and you aren’t happy, just say so, don’t build it up and then explode it on everyone.

Cheers

 

[twopekinguys]

Well, if this is the case then you surely won’t mind when I meet former Catholics involved in fundamentalism, and now I will encourage them to stay right where they are.

I used to urge them to rediscover their Catholic birthright, before turning their backs on it. I feel people owe it to themselves to TRULY learn and understand their birthright faith before throwing it away for another. I remember one fellow I met who had become a “Jack Chick” type after having been raised Catholic. He rediscovered Catholicism after a discussion with me, I simply told him he owed it to HIMSELF to TRULY learn his childhood faith before tossing it away.

But I won’t do that anymore, if what you say is true. Because evidently if someone walked away from Catholicism, it didn’t do anything for them. Forget the fact that they probably never TRULY knew it in the first place.

God speaks to people in different ways. While I wouldn’t be thrilled with anyone leaving the Catholic church, I would, and do respect their decision.

Anyone that I know that has left their church, Catholic or otherwise, has always been able to give me their reasoning behind it. Ultimately, the choice is theirs. I can only be there as a friend and confidant. Me, or anyone else trying to drag them back to the Church, accomplishes absolutely nothing. Except maybe hard feelings.

This is probably a bad example, but have you ever tried to train a puppy on a leash? You try to lead them somewhere they don’t want to go. They sit down, dig their paws in, and pull away.

People tend to dig their heels in on things too. Especially when someone tries to convince them their decision(s) is wrong.