Perhaps my time here is over

[Lapell]

Nowadays, if the conditions have changed for those who were born Jewish, I don’t know. People like Bob Fishman, Roy Schoeman, Rosalind and David Moss and Mark Drogin could tell us. What changed for us are the laws involving the sacrificial system, and that we don’t throw stones at heretics and adulterous people, and maybe a few other things… but the Ten Commandments certainly are still to be observed, that’s for sure!!

 

[YADA]

In my experience working with Jews who have returned to Judaism, I only remember one who had any adequate prior knowledge of Judaism before becoming Christian. In general, Jews who intermarry and Jews who convert out are incredibly ignorant of Judaism before they marry out or convert. Studies have even proven this.

And would the Rabbi of Rome [Isreal Zolli] who became a catholic in the late 1940’s be in that same category, ignorant of Hebrew and Judaism?

Isreal Zolli responded to G-d’s call and one should be able to argue that he fully understood judaism, hebrew and the Jewish faith, heritage, etc … He did not see himself leaving who he was to become something different nor did he see the One G-d of Christianity as being a different G-d but One and the Same …

 

[Kaninchen]

And would the Rabbi of Rome [Isreal Zolli] who became a catholic in the late 1940’s be in that same category, ignorant of Hebrew and Judaism?

Isreal Zolli responded to G-d’s call and one should be able to argue that he fully understood judaism, hebrew and the Jewish faith, heritage, etc … He did not see himself leaving who he was to become something different nor did he see the One G-d of Christianity as being a different G-d but One and the Same …

I expect he was mainly relieved that anybody wanted him at all.

 

[LaMar]

Nowadays, if the conditions have changed for those who were born Jewish, I don’t know. People like Bob Fishman, Roy Schoeman, Rosalind and David Moss and Mark Drogin could tell us. What changed for us are the laws involving the sacrificial system, and that we don’t throw stones at heretics and adulterous people, and maybe a few other things… but the Ten Commandments certainly are still to be observed, that’s for sure!!

Jews don’t ordinarily perform sacrifices, they don’t throw stones at heretics or adulterers either. They aren’t analogous to neo-Nazis (or other political types – it’s a religion).

Of course, a tiny minority of Jews are surely nuts, but this is similar to Catholic and Mormon fanatics who take things too seriously.

It sounds like you don’t know much about Jews. Have you ever gone to your local temple or synagogue and asked to talk to someone there? They’ll give you the straight scoop on what Judaism is all about. They’ll also respect the fact that you’re not interested in converting. You can also audit courses at your local university for a few bucks (it’s usually less than 100 dollars to do this, or you can do it “Abbie Hoffman style” and pay nothing…just show up, take a seat in the back and keep your mouth shut).

You can write a coherent critique of Judaism which deals with facts and is backed up by evidence and the actual teachings of Jewish scholars. Jews don’t believe that gentiles have no soul, or that Judaism is “better”, or that people should be stoned. Where do you guys get this stuff? Sounds like 1930s propaganda.

 

[Kaninchen]

If by better you mean it has the fullness of truth, than yes my religion is better than all others. If I did not believe this I would not have bothered converting to the Catholic Church; further it was not the work of prostelyzation that led to my conversion. Shouldn’t a devout Jew believe that his religion is the most correct and therefore better than all others. Similarly with a Muslim, Hindu, etc. Sorry to burst your bubble, but not all religions can be just as good as the others.

As I’ve said here many times, Christianity is not “Judaism + Jesus” and Judaism isn’t “Christianity - Jesus”, they’re two entirely different religions with different paradigmatic approaches.

Your post is based on Christian assumptions - basically (in this instance) that an individual is eternally doomed unless he/she believes in a precise Jesus recipe (here it’s the ‘Catholic recipe’, of course). If one doesn’t share that assumption, however, then an entirely different set of deductions are the result.

Since we don’t believe that anybody is any worse off for not being Jewish, there’s no reason why they should become Jewish.

As to whether religions are as good as one another, certainly they should conform to the covenant with the sons of Noah - try not to eat live animals, for example - but between, say, Christianity or Islam, what would ‘better’ mean to somebody who doesn’t believe in the slightest in either of them?

 

[sarah_anne_628]

Jews don’t ordinarily perform sacrifices, they don’t throw stones at heretics or adulterers either. They aren’t analogous to neo-Nazis (or other political types – it’s a religion).

Of course, a tiny minority of Jews are surely nuts, but this is similar to Catholic and Mormon fanatics who take things too seriously.

It sounds like you don’t know much about Jews. Have you ever gone to your local temple or synagogue and asked to talk to someone there? They’ll give you the straight scoop on what Judaism is all about. They’ll also respect the fact that you’re not interested in converting. You can also audit courses at your local university for a few bucks (it’s usually less than 100 dollars to do this, or you can do it “Abbie Hoffman style” and pay nothing…just show up, take a seat in the back and keep your mouth shut).

You can write a coherent critique of Judaism which deals with facts and is backed up by evidence and the actual teachings of Jewish scholars. Jews don’t believe that gentiles have no soul, or that Judaism is “better”, or that people should be stoned. Where do you guys get this stuff? Sounds like 1930s propaganda.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think Lapell was suggesting that Jews today practice sacrifices and stoning…I think the comment was in reference to the mention of the New Covenant in a previous reply.

In Old Testament times (and certainly in Jesus’ day), it was the Jewish custom to offer live sacrifices and stone adulterers and blasphemers and so forth. And many (if not all or most…I’m not really an Old Testament scholar) of those customs were commandments from God. I think Lapell was referring to how the Messiah changed the practices needed to draw closer to God and how after Jesus death and resurrection and the descent of the Holy Spirit, the followers of “The Way” (Christians) no longer practiced many of the old customs.

Anyway, sorry to interfere, but you seemed a bit offended by the comment and I don’t think you needed to be…that isn’t how I read the comment at all. Again, I could be wrong.

Peace to you.

 

[Kaninchen]

In Old Testament times (and certainly in Jesus’ day), it was the Jewish custom to offer live sacrifices and stone adulterers and blasphemers and so forth.

Executions were rather rare.

 

[LaMar]

I could be wrong, but I don’t think Lapell was suggesting that Jews today practice sacrifices and stoning…I think the comment was in reference to the mention of the New Covenant in a previous reply.

In Old Testament times (and certainly in Jesus’ day), it was the Jewish custom to offer live sacrifices and stone adulterers and blasphemers and so forth. And many (if not all or most…I’m not really an Old Testament scholar) of those customs were commandments from God. I think Lapell was referring to how the Messiah changed the practices needed to draw closer to God and how after Jesus death and resurrection and the descent of the Holy Spirit, the followers of “The Way” (Christians) no longer practiced many of the old customs.

Anyway, sorry to interfere, but you seemed a bit offended by the comment and I don’t think you needed to be…that isn’t how I read the comment at all. Again, I could be wrong.

Peace to you.

Don’t be sorry, I appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut.

It would be easy to deconstruct Judaism (or Islam, which is another popular scapegoat on this forum) and make valid points based upon what Judaism actually is. It doesn’t seem to be happening here. The critics seem to be deconstructing a caricature of what they imagine Judaism (Islam, etc.) to be, rather than what it actually is.

Lapell analogized religion to radical politics earlier, but this isn’t directed at him specifically. S/he is a good example of a rather pervasive phenomenon which doesn’t seem particularly productive.

I would love to see a valid critique of Judaism (or Islam, or Mormonism) written by Catholic intellectuals here. I’d learn a lot from it and I hope it appears at some point.

Peace,

LaMar

 

[HashemEchad]

Looking for a shocker? No. More of a direct answer, since some posted that to Jews it’s O.K. if a Jew converts to any other religion as long as it’s not to Christianity. Someone said that it’s painful for a Jewish family as well when it’s to other faiths. So this answer confirms it. So if the same kind of post comes back again, it won’t be a solid statement. Thank you!

Whoever said that was WRONG. We do not single out Christianity, it would be just as wrong for a Jew to join ANY other religion, other than that of Torah observance.

Its not only Christianity, but Christianity is the dominant religion in the West, so most people probably focus on that one.

 

[HashemEchad]

Hum… and I suppose you don’t have to know much about other branches of Judaism, like Conservative, Reform, or Chassidic, if you were an Orthodox Jew, provided you know the tenets of Judaism in general and anything pertaining to Orthodox Judaism, right?

Well, I actually know very little about non-Orthodox versions of Judaism, since I’ve never followed any of their forms, nor have I even been in their synagogues (or temples, I think they call them.)

I’m not strictly Orthodox (more like moderately Orthodox), but when I go to a synagogue, its an Orthodox one.

 

[HashemEchad]

If you live in the U.S., you not only should but you’re required to.

We have something called the first amendment. Maybe you’ve heard about it someplace. It guarantees even the silliest people the right to believe whatever fairy tales they want, no matter how ridiculous.

I agree with you 100%. I actually do have a neighbor (on my street) who is a neo-Nazi skinhead. He knows we’re Jewish, but believe it or not, we get along. He doesn’t try to convert me (why would he anyway, right?), and I don’t try to convert him (as if I could!)

 

[HashemEchad]

It seems that there is a degree of hypocrisy in your post. I am aware of movements that seek to encourage converts to the Christian tradition to return to the Jewish practices, and I understand that the feeling of being an outcast can be quite strong for some of these Christian Jews. You are asking Chrsitans to be quiet while you attempt to undermine the saving work of Christ upon those Jews who come to believe. In other words, you are “ecumenical”–if it serves your goals. The Jews continue to hold a special place, but the New Covenant replaces the old rules of law to which you adhere.

I’d respectfuly suggest you read the writings of some of those converts. From Roy Schoeman to David and Rosalind Moss. They have a lot of wise things to say, and it sounds like their message is one that you need to listen to.

I have read the writings of the Moss siblings; in fact I’ve spoken in the past several times to David Moss (surprised?) I also once met the late Father Arthur Klyber, and have also met the Drogins, as well as Ronda Chervin (there, I just told you some Jewish Catholics you probably didn’t even know about!)

I’ve been active in Jewish spiritual rescue for several decades, and in that time have read practically all the available missionary writings by both Jewish Catholics and Jewish born-agains (which includes “messianic Jews”.)

I’ve also spoken to many of the leaders in the “messianic” movement, such as the late Marty Chernoff, Martin Rosen and the like. This subject is really old hat with me.

 

[HashemEchad]

And would the Rabbi of Rome [Isreal Zolli] who became a catholic in the late 1940’s be in that same category, ignorant of Hebrew and Judaism?

Isreal Zolli responded to G-d’s call and one should be able to argue that he fully understood judaism, hebrew and the Jewish faith, heritage, etc … He did not see himself leaving who he was to become something different nor did he see the One G-d of Christianity as being a different G-d but One and the Same …

Zoller (his REAL name) was a liar and deceiver. He converted to Catholicism because the Jewish community rejected him. Why did they reject him?

He abandoned them at their hour of greatest need, to hide in the Vatican while the Nazis were rounding up his people. A rabbi is supposed to stay with his people, as a shepherd stays with the sheep. He abandoned them, and then had the nerve to try to weasle his way back into their good graces after the war, but they would have none of it.

THAT was the REAL reason why he became a Catholic. Why do you think his baptism was so PUBLIC? He was a meshumad le’hakhis, or apostate for spite, one of the worst reasons a Jew can go shmad.

He did it to tick off his former co-religionists. Because of his deceitful nature and tendency to abandon his people, that frankly, is one Jew I am glad converted out. The Catholics did not get a prize with him, even though Pius XII felt he did.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

My own neighbors (and I’ve lived in the same house for several years) might be practicing any number of things. Scientology? Satanism? Islam? I wouldn’t know because it’s none of my business. I wouldn’t care if I did know. They’re nice people. Religion isn’t relevant.

Why should Jews be any different?

Because Jews only exist to teach the world about God, they have no purpose other than that.

Besides if you really believe in God then you can’t possibly think God would be ok with Satanism.

And we aren’t bothering your neighbors, we’re here on a Catholic forum talking about religion. So I expect people to say what they really believe here, not some mealy mouth “I’m ok, you’re ok” nonsense, if deep down you think God might not like what the other guy is doing.

 

[planter654]

Guess what? In Hebrew school, Christianity is NEVER DISCUSSED. I know it must upset you, but apart from Christian efforts to convert us over the centuries, Christianity and its deity, Jesus, is TOTALLY MEANINGLESS to Jews and Judaism, hence we do not discuss it because it is irrelevant to our lives. We discuss JUDAISM in our schools, not other religions.

How do I know Christian theologians distorted OUR Jewish scriptures to fit their messiah? Because I KNOW HEBREW. And I know what the original Hebrew SAYS. And it does not say what the Christians claim it does.

Isaiah 7:14, for example, says in the original Hebrew, that a YOUNG WOMAN (ha’almah) will bear a son. Christians like to use that verse to fit Jesus, but in their translation, they changed the word to be VIRGIN.

In Hebrew, there are TWO SEPARATE words for YOUNG WOMAN and VIRGIN and they do not mean the same thing.

The word for YOUNG WOMAN is “almah”. The word for VIRGIN is “betulah”.

But those chose to change it to VIRGIN so as to fit the virgin birth concept.

Believe whatever you want, but I’m just showing why JEWS do not believe in Christianity.

About changing the words of the scripture does give different meanings. There is so many different bibles written now for different reglions. Does your book has it ever changed since Jesus time in the changing of words etc? Thanks

I agree with you and I am Catholic! That does explain to me why Jesus calls his mother “woman” at the cross. And at the wedding at Cana. Is Mary in Hebrew— Mariam?

Can I ask you what would be Jesus “Hebrew” or in Aramaic name when he walk the earth?Messiah.

Thank You— God Bless

 

[po18guy]

Zoller (his REAL name) was a liar and deceiver. He converted to Catholicism because the Jewish community rejected him. Why did they reject him?

He abandoned them at their hour of greatest need, to hide in the Vatican while the Nazis were rounding up his people. A rabbi is supposed to stay with his people, as a shepherd stays with the sheep. He abandoned them, and then had the nerve to try to weasle his way back into their good graces after the war, but they would have none of it.

THAT was the REAL reason why he became a Catholic. Why do you think his baptism was so PUBLIC? He was a meshumad le’hakhis, or apostate for spite, one of the worst reasons a Jew can go shmad.

He did it to tick off his former co-religionists. Because of his deceitful nature and tendency to abandon his people, that frankly, is one Jew I am glad converted out. The Catholics did not get a prize with him, even though Pius XII felt he did.

And now that we have been insulted, spat upon and slapped, we offer you our other cheek. Please continue, as it builds our reward in Heaven.

May the L-rd G-d of Israel smile upon you.

 

[YADA]

Zoller (his REAL name) was a liar and deceiver. He converted to Catholicism because the Jewish community rejected him. Why did they reject him?

He abandoned them at their hour of greatest need, to hide in the Vatican while the Nazis were rounding up his people. A rabbi is supposed to stay with his people, as a shepherd stays with the sheep. He abandoned them, and then had the nerve to try to weasle his way back into their good graces after the war, but they would have none of it.

THAT was the REAL reason why he became a Catholic. Why do you think his baptism was so PUBLIC? He was a meshumad le’hakhis, or apostate for spite, one of the worst reasons a Jew can go shmad.

He did it to tick off his former co-religionists. Because of his deceitful nature and tendency to abandon his people, that frankly, is one Jew I am glad converted out. The Catholics did not get a prize with him, even though Pius XII felt he did.

Shouldn’t you give credit to an author when you quote them as you have above … this is almost a direct quote from Rabbi Tovia Singer see this site outreachjudaism.org/rome.html

 

[Valke2]

Well, you seem to imply the assumption about Jesus’ Messiahship is entirely the Apostles’ and that they kinda bent the meaning of the Scriptures to make them fit the assumption. Not a chance somebody outside of them could have helped them (someone who would not be Saul-Paulos of Tarse) ?

That isn’t what I meant to imply. I am talking about Christianity in general. It starts with the assumption that Jesus is Messiah and God and then looks at the Jewish texts with that assumption in mind.

 

[HashemEchad]

Shouldn’t you give credit to an author when you quote them as you have above … this is almost a direct quote from Rabbi Tovia Singer see this site outreachjudaism.org/rome.html

Rabbi Singer is not the only person that knows Zoller’s true history. I have known it for 30 years, which is far longer than I’ve known of Rabbi Singer.

Back in the late 1970s, I read a book entitled, “The Chief Rabbi of Rome Becomes A Catholic”, c 1940-something, by Louis I Newman. In that book, Zoller’s entire list of escapades are documented fully, for anyone interested.

I think this is a link to the book online:

questia.com/library/book/a-chief-rabbi-of-rome-becomes-a-catholic-a-study-in-fright-and-spite-by-louis-i-newman.jsp

 

[HashemEchad]

And now that we have been insulted, spat upon and slapped, we offer you our other cheek. Please continue, as it builds our reward in Heaven.

May the L-rd G-d of Israel smile upon you.

I provide you with the TRUTH about someone you thought was saintly, and for that you play the martyr?