Perhaps my time here is over

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Brian_Millar said:
Of course he takes things from Jewish sources, he was a Jew afterall. I like where he fufills the law, then justifies it to it’s time, then intevenes with the law that supercedes it. An eye for an eye for example, replaced with love your enemy, turning the other cheek, and the like, a much more peacful approach towards how to deal with transgressors, he in a nutshell is saying vengance is the Lords, that to rely upon him for these matters puts you more in line with God, for God is the only true judge. It makes alot of sense, for maiming your enemy for what they have done to you, doesn’t bring back the eye that was taken from you in the first place, it was meant to end the madness, yet at the same time, the original law was there in order to allow the Jews to survive in that time, for the world was a different place and it had to accomodate a different law, otherwise, they would have been wiped off of the face of the planet by their enemies.

I’d like to know, what is it that was explained about the Messiah, that was not fufilled by Christ? What element do you think was missing?
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What he was doing was amplifying the already-existing Torah.

As for your question, the Christian concept of “messiah” is quite different from the Jewish concept. For one, we believe the real Messiah will get everything done in one coming; he won’t need two.

Furthermore, for us, the Messiah will not be divine, but mortal.

For us, Jesus could not be the Messiah for other reasons as well…for instance, Christians claim he fulfilled the Torah, yet in several passages of the NT he told his followers to violate Jewish Law (telling them to harvest grain on the Sabbath, for one example.)

He also made prophecies which did not come true (such as in Mt 24, when he said that THAT generation would not pass away (die) until everything he foretold would be fulfilled.)
 
MrS said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrS forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
I can only assume that those predictions and prophecies are not recognized by the Jews as pointing to Jesus Christ. Personally I find that very strange. But I accept that God works in His time, not mine.

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Perhaps one day your Bible will include the New Testament.

Nice… subtle, spiteful, …

The Qur’an, huh… ohwell, some in Islam are anti-Christian too.

.
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Why is his comment to you seen as “spiteful”, but not youyrs to him, which initiated it?
 
HashemEchad said:
What he was doing was amplifying the already-existing Torah.

As for your question, the Christian concept of “messiah” is quite different from the Jewish concept. For one, we believe the real Messiah will get everything done in one coming; he won’t need two.

Furthermore, for us, the Messiah will not be divine, but mortal.

For us, Jesus could not be the Messiah for other reasons as well…for instance, Christians claim he fulfilled the Torah, yet in several passages of the NT he told his followers to violate Jewish Law (telling them to harvest grain on the Sabbath, for one example.)

He also made prophecies which did not come true (such as in Mt 24, when he said that THAT generation would not pass away (die) until everything he foretold would be fulfilled.)
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Indeed, he did introduce a new Torah, it’s called the New Testiment. He also fufilled the law and amended it towards the next level of it, this means doing away with many of the old ways which have become obsolete. The sabbath for example, it was originally put in place for mans sake, for without it, people would be working 7 days a week which is not only bad for the individual, it’s bad for what they produce, for you cannot work like that and remain productive, he loosen the constraint on that one, allowing us more latitude in this area, you gotta admit, it’s ridicoules to stone someone to death for plucking grain from it’s stalk to fill your belly, that is no crime, it’s biblical fast food. 🙂

He came in the flesh, clearly making that element in line with your requirments.

On the generation passing away, that has not been clearly defined, some think it’s the one that fought in WW2, and that these are the end of times, that generation has not passed away, and I’m looking around, taking note, these very well could be the end of times.

Along coming again, why not, let the seed grow and flourish then come back to reap the harvest rather then take a sludge hammer, say convert or die, you have 5 minutes to make your choice. That would be cutting his message short since it would not have time to reach the world, much less having those that believe to be tested in their faith. God is very patient, he never displays his wrath until he has no choice and only when he has given the people’s tons, and ton’s of time to figure it out, this is because he’s not quick to show his vengance, he is quick to show his mercy which is more important. His mercy is being shown here and now, it’s up to us to accept it, otherwise there will be wrath faced, for the world cannot continue to go on this way as it stands. He must come again to intervene for our sakes, so yeah, the second coming and this time, he’s coming to stay.
 
Brian_Millar said:
Indeed, he did introduce a new Torah, it’s called the New Testiment. He also fufilled the law and amended it towards the next level of it, this means doing away with many of the old ways which have become obsolete. The sabbath for example, it was originally put in place for mans sake, for without it, people would be working 7 days a week which is not only bad for the individual, it’s bad for what they produce, for you cannot work like that and remain productive, he loosen the constraint on that one, allowing us more latitude in this area, you gotta admit, it’s ridicoules to stone someone to death for plucking grain from it’s stalk to fill your belly, that is no crime, it’s biblical fast food. 🙂
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It was pretty hard to get yourself executed, even in biblical times.

There’s a false assumption behind this argument - the idea that Torah is/was interpreted literally, it isn’t and wasn’t. The parallel would be the setting up of a new State, it may start with a Constitution and a few laws but soon the law libraries fill up with mountains of case law and legal interpretations/rulings. So, when a new case comes up, there’s a lot of wrangling about what various precedents and authorities on the law have said in similar or vaguely similar circumstances.

Christians often see something Jesus says about ‘The Law’ as being, in some way, new or revolutionary where, to a Jew, it’s a case of “nothing new there then” (meanwhile, you get the ‘set piece’ rows with the Pharisees which read just like, well, a bunch of Pharisees [including Jesus] rowing - business as usual in Pharisee world).
He came in the flesh, clearly making that element in line with your requirments.
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It’s the ‘divine’ bit that’s the problem.
He must come again to intervene for our sakes, so yeah, the second coming and this time, he’s coming to stay.
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Or not.
 
I have no idea what you are talking about with setting up a new state, there was never anything mentioned about that, there was a new church though, if that’s where you are getting at.

As he was in the flesh, he was limited by it, he could be hurt, he thirsted, he felt hunger, he experienced being born and everything that we men have experienced throughout our lives, for if he did not, to that level, he coming would have been mute, for it would not have truely been in the flesh. God literally came down to our own level, to experience life as we do, and he placed a limitation upon his existance, just to make it clear, he’s going to suffer right along side the rest of mankind, and in spite of all of these physical limitations, he demonstrated many things, things that you and I could also do if we had enough faith. Look to your Kabala for example, take note to all of the mystical things that are derrived from it, you follow the set of procedures and you produce and end result, to an outsider it would appear to be a mirical, but to an insider, it’s just following what’s clearly detailed for you to understand and practice.

Once Christ was crucified, his work was complete, after his death, he no longer was bound by mortal coils, this is what allowed him to rise from the dead, for he no longer was tied to mortal constraints.
 
Brian_Millar said:
I have no idea what you are talking about with setting up a new state, there was never anything mentioned about that, there was a new church though, if that’s where you are getting at.
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It was about ‘The Law’ and Judaism, not about Christianity - I was talking about how Judaism ‘works’. We don’t just look up Leviticus, or whatever, and apply everything literally.
 
Why not, it’s the law isn’t it, what is it that you are thinking, or were taught that told you not to follow it literally?
 
Brian_Millar said:
The sabbath for example, it was originally put in place for mans sake, for without it, people would be working 7 days a week which is not only bad for the individual, it’s bad for what they produce, for you cannot work like that and remain productive, he loosen the constraint on that one, allowing us more latitude in this area, you gotta admit, it’s ridicoules to stone someone to death for plucking grain from it’s stalk to fill your belly, that is no crime, it’s biblical fast food. 🙂
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I believe you are mistaken.

Biblically speaking, the Sabbath was not put for man’s sake. True, having a day of rest is important and this may be a side reason for having the Sabbath, but the primary reason for instituting the Sabbath was something else.

Just read what Scripture has to say. All verses from NIV.

Exodus 31:

12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.

14 " ‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.’ "

The explanation given is Jewish-centric but you can see the Sabbath wasn’t given for man’s sake.

If we take a more macroscopic view, the Sabbath is to remind mankind that God is our creator. In fact, most people who have not read the Bible, certainly not Exodus 31, know the phrase “God rested on the 7th day”. 🙂
 
Brian_Millar said:
Why not, it’s the law isn’t it, what is it that you are thinking, or were taught that told you not to follow it literally?
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It is not that straightforward as you think.

For example, laws to do with Temple practices simply cannot be followed today, whether you are Cohen or not.

And even if a particular law can be followed, the Old Testament is vague on the details. There is no way you can pick up the Old Testament and follow the law literally. You certainly have much leeway when encountering everyday situation.
 
I think they are arguing from Matthew 5: 18 “For, assuredly, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” Interpreting it to mean that Jews must obey every part of the law in order to achieve salvation, while in Jesus, people are free from the law of the OT. That is not the only interpretation floating around, however.
 
HashemEchad said:
What he was doing was amplifying the already-existing Torah.

As for your question, the Christian concept of “messiah” is quite different from the Jewish concept. For one, we believe the real Messiah will get everything done in one coming; he won’t need two.
Furthermore, for us, the Messiah will not be divine, but mortal.
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based on what? I take it it’s based on passages in the whole of the Tanakh…
 
Icemoon said:
But that doesn’t mean it is a downright impossiblity.
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Such conjectures are humans playing games with the incomprehensible - like trying to know a symphony from a few notes, at the outside one might just be able to vaguely guess the leitmotif.
 
HashemEchad said:
He also made prophecies which did not come true (such as in Mt 24, when he said that THAT generation would not pass away (die) until everything he foretold would be fulfilled.)
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I used to understand that Mt 24 foretold the destruction of the Temple. How do you understand the term “generation”. Just one possible meaning, or are there others?
 
Jerusha said:
I think they are arguing from Matthew 5: 18 “For, assuredly, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.” Interpreting it to mean that Jews must obey every part of the law in order to achieve salvation, while in Jesus, people are free from the law of the OT. That is not the only interpretation floating around, however.
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Problems with the interpretation:
  1. Not every part of the law can be obeyed. In fact, a few years after Matthew was written, the Temple was no more, rendering certain laws void. Do take note that there was no Temple also during the Babylon Exile.
  2. Salvation is very much a Christian idea.
 
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