Perhaps my time here is over

[Brian_Millar]

I believe you are mistaken.

Biblically speaking, the Sabbath was not put for man’s sake. True, having a day of rest is important and this may be a side reason for having the Sabbath, but the primary reason for instituting the Sabbath was something else.

Just read what Scripture has to say. All verses from NIV.

Exodus 31:

12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 "Say to the Israelites, 'You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.

14 " ‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. 15 For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.’ "

The explanation given is Jewish-centric but you can see the Sabbath wasn’t given for man’s sake.

If we take a more macroscopic view, the Sabbath is to remind mankind that God is our creator. In fact, most people who have not read the Bible, certainly not Exodus 31, know the phrase “God rested on the 7th day”.

I’m with you on the 7th day element if you want to play literals, it seems more lax at the advent of the NT, where you should set aside a day of rest, but not necessarily the Jewish ritual of friday evening to saturday evening, especially in cases where there is a dire need, such as when he mentions a calf falling into the well, would you leave it to die just because it’s the Sabbath or would you toil to retreive it. You see how this can be taken way too far here? The isrealites needed some very precise, strong words of guidance, if God were to take anything lightly with them, they would not take it seriously, look to the time when Moses came down from the mountain, only to find they created an idol and were worshiping it, and after the parting of the Red Sea, the pillar of light that led them, the evidence in the literal sense that God was with them, yet here they are, being idiots and forgetting all about what he did for them, reverting to Pagan ways in spite of the fact.

The context is based upon two different people’s, one more advanced then the other, this is why there have been changes put in place Jesus taught, one of them includes how strictly to obay the sabbath according to Jewish tradition, it didn’t rule out the day or rest, it did place it into a more human context, knowing now, his people are ready to accept it, for they have evolved. This is my take on this, anybody else want to chime in, by all means do so.

 

[Jerusha]

Exactly. Could you go more into the post-Jesus rabbinical re-interpretation of the Law, adapting it for life in the Diaspora? Especially those parts that are congruent with the teachings of Jesus?

 

[Jerusha]

Problems with the interpretation:

1. Not every part of the law can be obeyed. In fact, a few years after Matthew was written, the Temple was no more, rendering certain laws void. Do take note that there was no Temple also during the Babylon Exile.
2. Salvation is very much a Christian idea.

Exactly. Could you go more into the post-Jesus rabbinical re-interpretation of the Law, adapting it for life in the Diaspora? Especially those parts that are congruent with the teachings of Jesus?

 

[Icemoon]

Do note that the Diaspora had already happened before Jesus. Destruction of Israel and Judah.

 

[Jerusha]

Ahh-- I am talking about the diaspora of 72AD to 1948 AD Sorry about that semantic difference.

 

[Icemoon]

Exactly. Could you go more into the post-Jesus rabbinical re-interpretation of the Law, adapting it for life in the Diaspora? Especially those parts that are congruent with the teachings of Jesus?

I’m not sure whether you can term it a post-Jesus “re-interpretation”.

Do you think only Catholics know how to play the regression game? Jews also have their own deposit of faith you know, c.f. Mesorah.

 

[Jerusha]

I again apologize for the problem in communication. You seem to be mistrustful.

Could you give a more comprehensive explanation as to why Jews of today are not bound to rigidly follow Leviticus, but that the Law has been adapted and refined over the centuries, to fit living conditions and the culture in which Jews find themselves? That there are far more explanations of the law than that found in Leviticus?

How does that do for a better phrasing of the question?

The Mesorah (I had to look it up) is exactly what I am asking about.

 

[Icemoon]

The isrealites needed some very precise, strong words of guidance, if God were to take anything lightly with them, they would not take it seriously, look to the time when Moses came down from the mountain, only to find they created an idol and were worshiping it, and after the parting of the Red Sea, the pillar of light that led them, the evidence in the literal sense that God was with them, yet here they are, being idiots and forgetting all about what he did for them, reverting to Pagan ways in spite of the fact.

Speaking of the Sinai golden calf, there is a Jewish side to the story you know?

I have always wondered how could anyone be so idiotic, forgetting about God’s greatest miracle after witnessing it. But after reading a bit on the Jewish tradition, I realize the incident is a beautiful lesson on faith.

I give you two hints on why it is so:

1. Historically, the more evident God’s miracles, the more likely the Jews turn pagan. When God was “nowhere” to be found, Jews turn more religious. During the holocaust and the crusades, Jews die with the Shema on their lips.
2. In the Pentateuch, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. Why did God do this, if the goal was to let the people go?

Apologies if you already known this. I just thought the idea is so beautiful. Kinda explains a lot of things.

 

[Icemoon]

I again apologize for the problem in communication. You seem to be mistrustful.

Could you give a more comprehensive explanation as to why Jews of today are not bound to rigidly follow Leviticus, but that the Law has been adapted and refined over the centuries, to fit living conditions and the culture in which Jews find themselves? That there are far more explanations of the law than that found in Leviticus?

How does that do for a better phrasing of the question?

The Mesorah (I had to look it up) is exactly what I am asking about.

Not mistrustful, just more careful considering this is a Catholic forum.

And for the record, I’m neither Jewish nor practising Judaism. According to Jewish tradition, gentiles are discouraged from studying parts of their tradition. Hehe.

From my understanding, few points:

1. It is kinda silly to rigidly follow Leviticus. Jews realize that when they hesitated to take up arms during Sabbath when the Romans were attacking.
2. The Torah is understood as the Tree of Life (c.f. Eden Tree) to those who grab hold of it. If the Torah gives life, why should the practitioner die by it? It is therefore quite unimaginable for a Pharisee to turn a blind eye to a dying man on his way to the synagogue.
3. There is sanctity to life, and pagans and Christians probably misunderstood the intention behind the atonement. Atonement isn’t a bloody sacrifice, but self-reflection on the sanctity of life at the altar. You can connect this with why they are forbidden to eat blood.
4. It is probably not about more explanations of the law or adding more law to existing law; I think you can get an eloquent Jew to explain this to you, but clearly Judaism separates biblical injunction from rabbinical injunction. It is not the case that rabbinical injunctions are biblical injunctions.

I think I never truly answered your questions. Just scrapping the surface with my probably incoherent ramblings.

 

[Jerusha]

According to Jewish tradition, gentiles are discouraged from studying parts of their tradition. Hehe.

Yeah, there is something in the Talmud that says that circumcision is good because it prevents women from enjoying sex too much.

Thank you for your answers. I think this will settle the debate down to some more reasonable terms.

 

[Brian_Millar]

I’m with you on the 7th day element if you want to play literals, it seems more lax at the advent of the NT, where you should set aside a day of rest, but not necessarily the Jewish ritual of friday evening to saturday evening, especially in cases where there is a dire need, such as when he mentions a calf falling into the well, would you leave it to die just because it’s the Sabbath or would you toil to retreive it. You see how this can be taken way too far here? The isrealites needed some very precise, strong words of guidance, if God were to take anything lightly with them, they would not take it seriously, look to the time when Moses came down from the mountain, only to find they created an idol and were worshiping it, and after the parting of the Red Sea, the pillar of light that led them, the evidence in the literal sense that God was with them, yet here they are, being idiots and forgetting all about what he did for them, reverting to Pagan ways in spite of the fact.

The context is based upon two different people’s, one more advanced then the other, this is why there have been changes put in place Jesus taught, one of them includes how strictly to obay the sabbath according to Jewish tradition, it didn’t rule out the day or rest, it did place it into a more human context, knowing now, his people are ready to accept it, for they have evolved. This is my take on this, anybody else want to chime in, by all means do so.

Since there is no edit feature, I did my famous random bible page pulls and was directed to: 1 Corinthians 10 you should read that, it helps explain what I just responded further, don’t ask me how I’m able to do this, hehe.

Also keep in mind, Jesus introduced the new covenant, this supercedes the old one, which means there are some changes in store within it, just as you found changes were necessary in order to fully comply with Jewish law.

 

[Lapell]

1. Salvation is very much a Christian idea.

And what were the sacrifices performed for, then? Why did they have to be performed in the first place?
Moreover, what’s Yom Kippur? the Day of Atonement. Atonement for what? Why should there be atonement for?
After this life, to observant Jews, what’s there? Does it finish with death? If so, why do we have to make efforts to be better? If it finishes with death, it wouldn’t make sense, would it?

 

[LaMar]

Hey Lapell,

Interesting questions.

And what were the sacrifices performed for, then? Why did they have to be performed in the first place?
Moreover, what’s Yom Kippur? the Day of Atonement. Atonement for what? Why should there be atonement for?

Some temples will allow outsiders (even godless heathens like me) to witness an evening service on Yom Kippur. I highly recommend it, if you’re interested. The chanting of the Kol Nidre is hypnotic and very touching.

*The name “Yom Kippur” means “Day of Atonement,” and that pretty much explains what the holiday is. It is a day set aside to “afflict the soul,” to atone for the sins of the past year. In Days of Awe, I mentioned the “books” in which G-d inscribes all of our names. On Yom Kippur, the judgment entered in these books is sealed. This day is, essentially, your last appeal, your last chance to change the judgment, to demonstrate your repentance and make amends.

As I noted in Days of Awe, Yom Kippur atones only for sins between man and G-d, not for sins against another person. To atone for sins against another person, you must first seek reconciliation with that person, righting the wrongs you committed against them if possible. That must all be done before Yom Kippur. *

Much more at: jewfaq.org/holiday4.htm

After this life, to observant Jews, what’s there? Does it finish with death? If so, why do we have to make efforts to be better? If it finishes with death, it wouldn’t make sense, would it?

A relative of mine explained it this way:

“Being a mensch means doing the right thing without regard for the consequences, in this life or the next. We do the right thing simply because it is the right thing to do.”

Hopefully HashemEchad will pipe up if she has a different opinion.

 

[Icemoon]

After this life, to observant Jews, what’s there? Does it finish with death? If so, why do we have to make efforts to be better? If it finishes with death, it wouldn’t make sense, would it?

As a non Jew, I find this question weird.

It is not about consciously making efforts to be better, certainly not that we are in this deep abyss of sin that we need to get out and back into God’s good books.

You can be better 'cos you have the potential to be better (or evil) and God expects you to be better. Man is a co-partner in Creation with God. Do not disappoint Him!

 

[Lapell]

Actually I think at least some Jews do believe there will be a resurrection at the end of time. But otherwise, if we make all kinds of efforts in this life for the sake of God just to end up dying just like the rest of mankind, if there were nothing after this, wouldn’t that be absurd? You find it weird? Just think about it…

 

[HashemEchad]

I’m a ‘her’ not a ‘him’! ‘Kaninchen’ is German for ‘bunny’

Sorry, I didn’t know! I’m being called “Hashem” even though that is Hebrew for God’s Name.

Chana

 

[HashemEchad]

I again apologize for the problem in communication. You seem to be mistrustful.

Could you give a more comprehensive explanation as to why Jews of today are not bound to rigidly follow Leviticus, but that the Law has been adapted and refined over the centuries, to fit living conditions and the culture in which Jews find themselves? That there are far more explanations of the law than that found in Leviticus?

How does that do for a better phrasing of the question?

The Mesorah (I had to look it up) is exactly what I am asking about.

The Temple was destroyed as a punishment for our sins, notably the sin of sinat chinam (baseless hatred of each other.)

While the Temple is not standing, mercy and truth atone for sin (Proverbs 16:6 and other sources.)

Once it is restored, then animal sacrifices will again be the rule of the day.

To those who asked: traditional Judaism and traditional Jews believe most certainly in the resurrection of the dead at the End of Days (its called techiyat ha’meitim). In fact, Judaism teaches that anyone who denies the resurrection of the dead while claiming to be a religious Jew is a heretic.

We also believe in the World to Come, which we call the Olam ha’ba. It is for all good, moral people, whether they are Jews or not.

As for circumcision, a previous poster stated it incorrectly. There are some rabbinic sources that speculate that the reason for the circumcision command was so that Jewish MEN would not enjoy sex too much (actually, that they would not become debauched sex maniacs.)

 

[Brian_Millar]

Once it is restored, then animal sacrifices will again be the rule of the day.

We’ll start out with sacrificing all that wish to sacrifice animals in the first place, what honor does it do God to be crewl to an animal in this manner, it make no sense, none at all, it never did outside of showing God you are willing to give up the cream of your crop to him out of obediance, it never pleased him to see these poor creatures suffer, we should have outgrown this long, long, long ago, it never will be accepted as a practice again, not by a long shot…

 

[HashemEchad]

Once it is restored, then animal sacrifices will again be the rule of the day.

We’ll start out with sacrificing all that wish to sacrifice animals in the first place, what honor does it do God to be crewl to an animal in this manner, it make no sense, none at all, it never did outside of showing God you are willing to give up the cream of your crop to him out of obediance, it never pleased him to see these poor creatures suffer, we should have outgrown this long, long, long ago, it never will be accepted as a practice again, not by a long shot…

God commanded it, I believe it, that settles it! I’n also an animal lover, but if God commands something, that to me is entirely different.

What God created, He can authorize that we destroy if it honors him.

He also created Jesus, yet Christians believe that Jesus was sacrificed for their sins. How is that different? Was it not also cruel for Jesus to die?

 

[Brian_Millar]

Jesus put an end to it, he even mentioned as a child in regards to some doves destined to be sacrificed, that God want’s them to live. I’m loathing the old ways in this matter, for they truely are miserable. I’m so glad to be in an evolved understanding here, it’s too bad you think it honors him to main and kill innocent creatures.