Perhaps my time here is over

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HashemEchad said:
But the sad reality is that some rabbis feel such Jews were not “quality” Jews in the first place, if they could go so far as to convert to another religion, especially a very non-Jewish one. Hence, they write them off, so to speak and feel their time is more productively spent on helping Jews who ARE committed, or potential converts (since converts usually have far more commitment.)
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Well, that’s about part of the process, hey? To be called by others “not quality Jews” certainly is something one is prone to find a gentle remark, isn’t it!
 
HashemEchad said:
I’m going by what Edith Stein herself said, in her writings. She seemed eager to establish that she was never a religious Jew (though her family was somewhat religious), and that she converted to Catholicism from atheism.

I often wondered why she took such pains to establish that, and then realized she probably wanted to assure her family that she was not going to allow herself to be paraded about as a star convert from Judaism.
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She is not the kind who would enjoy “parading”. Maybe she took such pains just to spare those she still considered to be “her people”?
Moreover, if her parents were BOTH religious people…
 
Lapell said:
Well, that’s about part of the process, hey? To be called by others “not quality Jews” certainly is something one is prone to find a gentle remark, isn’t it!
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Frankly, the attitude of some rabbis reminds me of what Jesus said about the Syro-Phoenician woman, when he referred to her as a “dog” because she was a gentile.
 
HashemEchad said:
I’ll explain why: the implication by the OP is that Moss was a religious Jew, and that AS a Jew, she somehow “saw the light” and went shmad to Catholicism.

But that’s being disingenuous, because the TRUE motivation for her conversion to Catholicism stemmed from her 18 years as an Evangelical Protestant, because she came to believe that the Catholic church, as opposed to the Protestant ones, was “the true church”. I hardly think a Jew with NO prior involvement in Protestantism, would suddenly wake up one day and say, “You know? I think the Catholic church is the true CHURCH”. That’s more how a *Protestant * would think.

I’d be curious to know how Moss presents herself when speaking to Protestants as opposed to Jews…the apostle Paul said that it was acceptable to present yourself in differing ways, if it would gain the conversion of other people (“to the Jews, I became as a Jew so that I might win the Jews”, and so on, from 1 Corinthians.)
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I never denied that Rosalind Moss (and her brother David) passed through other stages before becoming Catholics. I never said they came directly from Judaism! Let it be clear!
Moreover, before becoming Protestants, both experienced a stage which they call “agnosticism”. They never hid it! I think David experienced it first. And then Rosalind also. But was it because of David’s doubts? That I don’t know. But they both felt some emptiness then. But as a kid I do think Rosalind at least believed in Adonai Echad! her memories of her childhood still seem very dear and vivid to her, believe me!
I do believe that when Rosalind would recount her conversion story, none of it would be fabricated!
I don’t understand what you mean when you state that her conversion to Catholicism “stemmed from her 18 years in Protestantism”… Protestants usually dread the very idea of ever becoming Catholics, you surely know that! Even when they do become Catholics. Rosalind was no different there! She even said that she had been trying for many years to save her brother David from becoming one, she mentioned that so many times…
 
Lapell said:
I never denied that Rosalind Moss (and her brother David) passed through other stages before becoming Catholics. I never said they came directly from Judaism! Let it be clear!
Moreover, before becoming Protestants, both experienced a stage which they call “agnosticism”. They never hid it! I think David experienced it first. And then Rosalind also. But was it because of David’s doubts? That I don’t know. But they both felt some emptiness then. But as a kid I do think Rosalind at least believed in Adonai Echad! her memories of her childhood still seem very dear and vivid to her, believe me!
I do believe that when Rosalind would recount her conversion story, none of it would be fabricated!
I don’t understand what you mean when you state that her conversion to Catholicism “stemmed from her 18 years in Protestantism”… Protestants usually dread the very idea of ever becoming Catholics, you surely know that! Even when they do become Catholics. Rosalind was no different there! She even said that she had been trying for many years to save her brother David from becoming one, she mentioned that so many times…
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I actually know David Moss (but not his sister, Rosalind). I had some dealings with him many years ago, via my countermissionary work, regarding his AHC organization.

I’ve noticed something regarding Jewish converts to Catholicism: the few times when Jews do convert to Catholicism, they often convert in brother-sister and sister-sister duos…usually first one, then the other (and sometimes, husband-wife cases, like the Drogins and the Dubners).

I’ve worked with situations where siblings both converted to Catholicism, and later, one or both chose to return to Judaism.

I’ve not noticed this phenomenon with Jews who become “messianic jews” or Protestants.

Any thoughts onw hy that might be?
 
HashemEchad said:
I’d be curious to know how Moss presents herself when speaking to Protestants as opposed to Jews…the apostle Paul said that it was acceptable to present yourself in differing ways, if it would gain the conversion of other people (“to the Jews, I became as a Jew so that I might win the Jews”, and so on, from 1 Corinthians.)
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True, and yet you may achieve this without having to tell any lie to anyone, otherwise you would bear a false testimony, and that would be a wrong thing in the eye of God, as well in Christianity as in Judaism, would it not?
 
You have spoken to Gentiles and to Jews, to Jews who had converted to other religions and to Jews who hadn’t converted at all, so you are able to see what I mean, aren’t you! 😉
 
Lapell said:
True, and yet you may achieve this without having to tell any lie to anyone, otherwise you would bear a false testimony, and that would be a wrong thing in the eye of God, as well in Christianity as in Judaism, would it not?
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I’ve had far more experience with evangelical Protestants who try to convert Jews (whether openly, or as “messianic jews”). I find that many of the “jews for jesus” or “messianic jews” think there is nothing wrong with using outright deception, and I’m sure they look to Paul’s word in 1 Corinthians as justification.

I remember one who spoke often to groups, and claimed he “was raised Orthodox”. Turned out his family was not religious at all, never was, but his great-grandfather (!) had been Orthodox, in Russia!

They also use deception by appropriating Jewish symbols, calling their ministers “rabbis”, and the like. Oh, they will defend it by saying, “Well, doesn’t rabbi mean teacher?” But the deceptive intent is plain to see.

This is why a red flag goes up anytime a convert to Christianity from Judaism claims to have been “raised Orthodox”. Conversion from Judaism, from the GENUINELY Orthodox, is so very, very rare that if it ever does happen, it would certainly be something to talk about! Ditto for intermarriage from among the GENUINELY Orthodox, its less than 1/2 of 1%.

You must also be aware of the fact that in much of the world outside the USA, there is no other form of Judaism but “Orthodox”. This means that in those countries (such as South Africa, Israel, much of Europe, etc), a Jew is either “Orthodox” or not religious. Its hard to explain to nonJews, but sometimes a Jew from those countries will say, “I was raised Orthodox” when what it really means is, “My family followed the Orthodox rituals because there wasn’t any other form of Judaism available”. But to be TRULY Orthodox means to live ones entire life strictly by Torah. Few Jews today do that; few Jews have ever done it 100%.

This is why even though I am very religiously observant, I do not call myself Orthodox because of how often the term is misused.
 
HashemEchad said:
I actually know David Moss (but not his sister, Rosalind). I had some dealings with him many years ago, via my countermissionary work, regarding his AHC organization.

I’ve noticed something regarding Jewish converts to Catholicism: the few times when Jews do convert to Catholicism, they often convert in brother-sister and sister-sister duos…usually first one, then the other (and sometimes, husband-wife cases, like the Drogins and the Dubners).

I’ve worked with situations where siblings both converted to Catholicism, and later, one or both chose to return to Judaism.

I’ve not noticed this phenomenon with Jews who become “messianic jews” or Protestants.

Any thoughts onw hy that might be?
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Hey, now this is interesting! I hadn’t struck me before. The Ratisbonne brothers, the Mosses… you can add Edith and her sister Rose Stein… Who else? I don’t think there are so many pairs like that, though… or are there?
 
I have a series of cassettes featuring Rosalind, plus I saw her in a program called Now That We Are Catholics, with co-host Kristine Franklin on EWTN several years ago. She’s quite talkative, also, certainly more than David when it comes to speaking about oneself!!! David and his wife came here just a few years ago (I belong to a Catholic havurah studying the Jewish roots of our Catholic faith) and so we heard them in person… they were here on behalf of the AHC, of course, on the invitation of our havurah. Still, I feel I know Ros a bit better than i know David…
 
HashemEchad said:
As for Jesus truly existing, can you prove it? And I mean more than just a tiny, isolated reference in Josephus.
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Ironically the reference in Josephus is most suspect and most historians think it has been tampered. The reference describes the resurrection of Jesus, btw.

The best “proof”, IMHO, is from early Christian writings like the gospels. And probably the cryptic reference to Yeshua in the Talmud. Haha.
 
If you play the Talmud backward, you can actually hear the Lord’s prayer.
 
HashemEchad said:
I remember one who spoke often to groups, and claimed he “was raised Orthodox”. Turned out his family was not religious at all, never was, but his great-grandfather (!) had been Orthodox, in Russia!

They also use deception by appropriating Jewish symbols, calling their ministers “rabbis”, and the like. Oh, they will defend it by saying, “Well, doesn’t rabbi mean teacher?” But the deceptive intent is plain to see.
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This is sad indeed!
 
HashemEchad said:
This is why a red flag goes up anytime a convert to Christianity from Judaism claims to have been “raised Orthodox”. Conversion from Judaism, from the GENUINELY Orthodox, is so very, very rare that if it ever does happen, it would certainly be something to talk about! Ditto for intermarriage from among the GENUINELY Orthodox, its less than 1/2 of 1%.

You must also be aware of the fact that in much of the world outside the USA, there is no other form of Judaism but “Orthodox”. This means that in those countries (such as South Africa, Israel, much of Europe, etc), a Jew is either “Orthodox” or not religious. Its hard to explain to nonJews, but sometimes a Jew from those countries will say, “I was raised Orthodox” when what it really means is, “My family followed the Orthodox rituals because there wasn’t any other form of Judaism available”. But to be TRULY Orthodox means to live ones entire life strictly by Torah. Few Jews today do that; few Jews have ever done it 100%.

This is why even though I am very religiously observant, I do not call myself Orthodox because of how often the term is misused.
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In case you find yourself not always up to the beautiful name of “observant” Jew? At least, you take it seriously, and you certainly sound like you’re trying your very best, and that’s not a small thing, au contraire! It certainly counts in the eyes of God! 👍
…I thought that’s what the word “Orthodox” meant, but you shed some light on things I had no idea about.
So, Chassidim are Orthodox, and non-Chassidim (in Europe, I mean) are equally Orthodox… And the Mittnaggim? Is it just a synonym for non-Chassidim?
 
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