Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

[ColNY]

That is not only unfair, it is a thorough mischaracterizatoin of Brendan’s point of view as readable in this thread.

Disagree. He’s promoting the notion that in order to desire to be a priest, you have to want to be part of a “club”. There’s an exclusiveness–including being “invited” to participate, that rings more of a fraternity than of humble service to God. That’s what I think and I’m sticking to it. .

Why would you think that Brendan’s parish is any less “encouraging” of women in non-clerical roles than every other parish is? Do you believe that girls in his parish are not “allowed” to do everything except seminary and altar service – both of which are tied to the male ministerial priesthood? Or is your anger actually directed toward the all-male nature of that priesthood?

Not sure where you get off with the “anger part”. Other than the fact that I don’t agree with any of the idea that some parishes/diocese promote all male servers, doesn’t mean I’m “angry” about anything—my parish/my diocese doesn’t subscribe to this line of thinking so personally, I don’t care–I only get “angry” about stuff that has relevance to my life–and this argument doesn’t. It’s just interesting to read some of these points of view and voice my own opinion. And, as I’m quickly learning on CAF there is no real sharing of opinions, it’s about as divided as Congress when it comes to discussing our faith. I’m just giving a voice to those who see things differently.
***Second, all I asked was for him to say what is in his parish to encourage girls the same way they do boys. I’m still waiting for that answer. Truth is—up until girls were allowed to serve as altar servers, there has been NOTHING that encourages them to be part of the Mass. And I know from my own experience, it didn’t do a lot to encourage me to want to be a more active participant in our parish life. ***


Everyone, raise your hand if virtually all parish activities (except Men’s Clubs) are not dominated by women, including prayer groups, retreats, bible study, faith formation, adoration attendance, daily Mass attendance, and even lectoring.

****I will not raise my hand because I don’t think that’s true—at least not at our parish. The men have two groups–Holy Name and St. Vincent de Paul that are extremely active and all male—and no, I don’t care (though I was pleased when they did invite me to join them for pizza and beer at their last meeting, when I was in the school building finishing up a project–I wish I could have stayed). We have an Altar Rosary Society though their numbers are dwindling–most are in their 70s and 80s.

Our faith formation classes are taught by men and women. Daily Mass attendance–at least the early Mass, has both (though more are retirees) as does First Friday Adoration. Ditto with our parish council, our retreats, parish life committee, school advisory board, decorating committee… . Our ECHM and lector schedules are about equal male/female. Our parish’s monthly turn at the local soup kitchen is open to all but it’s more men who sign up on a regular basis than women. And those men do ALL of the jobs, from prep work, cooking, serving, and clean up. No one says “that’s the women’s job”. ****

Even in the ultra-traditional parish near me which allows only male altar servers, Daily Mass, Adoration & Benediction, retreats, and lectoring, are anywhere between 95% and 100% female, depending on the occasion. And my understanding is that this pattern is widespread throughout the Catholic Church in the U.S.

:banghead:
Raise your hand, everyone, if your pastor does not have to resort to practically begging the entire laity to attend anything offered in the parish, or that even if he wanted to, your pastor would ever be in a practical position to “discourage” female attendance.

***Depends on the parish and what’s being offered, I guess. My experience is that there is an “audience” for pretty much everything at our parish. We also coordinate with other parishes for things like Lenten retreats and penance services, and since we’re the only parish in the area that offers them, we attract people from other parishes for Pre-Canas and RCIA. The only thing that’s dropping in significantly numbers is our Religous Ed program. And the issue there is the DRE. Public school parents are still educating their children in the faith–but we’re losing them to other parishes because of this person and that’s something our new pastor is addressing. But no, not a lot of begging. Our parish life committee is good at encouraging people to join in. ***

For your information, the priesthood (and in some parishes, altar serving because it is viewed as visibly linked to priesthood) is the only segregated function in the Roman Church. (What Church are you a member of, again? )

I’m Roman Catholic. . thank you for asking.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Women, both lay and nuns basically run my church, of the dozen altar servers I’ve seen one is female. Our EMHC are about half men and half women with the norm of most of them being couples (married obviously). Of adult attendees about half seem to be female because we have a very active KoC group.

 

[ColNY]

Right. Which means we also have to ‘accept’ if the bishop or an individual priest does NOT permit female altar servers. (Such as the diocese of Arlington VA in addition to Phoenix I believe.)

That’s why Karen, above, who says that she ‘won’t support financially’ a priest or bishop who DOESN’T allow female altar servers is as wrong in her viewpoint as somebody who says that he (or she) won’t support financially a priest or bishop who DOES allow female servers.

There are plenty of people who do stop going to Mass or financially supporting parishes because they feel the priest is too “liberal” as to allow female servers. Or they don’t agree with the way in which something is being done in the parish or diocese. Our diocese saw a significant drop in support for Catholic Charities when the diocese stopped providing any support to the Catholic high schools in the area or during the disastrous attempt to consolidate parishes and schools.

Unlike Karen though, most people just stop giving or go away quietly to another parish (or faith–as happened with some of these church closings). They don’t say WHY or try to engage in honest dialogue in which one if not both sides may learn something.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I’m Roman Catholic. . thank you for asking.

Good. Because, um, most Roman Catholics understand that

the priesthood (and in some parishes, altar serving because it is viewed as visibly linked to priesthood) is the only segregated function in the Roman Church.

and therefore would never make this rhetorical and politically-originating statement

Or, that breeds the notion of it being an “old boys club.”

or ask these rhetorical questions:

What are the girls “allowed” to do? How many families with girls still go to your church? I’d be curious to see… . . Tell me–what is your parish doing to make faith accessible to ALL?

Because if you understood the Roman Church’s teachings, you would never ask those questions, nor resort to irrelevant populist rhetoric about the Church established by Jesus Christ.

 

[ColNY]

Good. Because, um, most Roman Catholics understand that

and therefore would never make this rhetorical and politically-originating statement

or ask these rhetorical questions:

Because if you understood the Roman Church’s teachings, you would never ask those questions, nor resort to irrelevant populist rhetoric about the Church established by Jesus Christ.

It nevers sees to amaze me how some people can question your faith because you ask a question about something they agree with. Rome allows girl altar servers. Many people, myself included, have no problem with that, in fact, welcome it. None of us have suggested that there be female priests.

And I don’t see how my questions are rhetorical. I’m asking the question–what is there for girls in Brendan’s parish that seems to be primarily concerned with being a seminary breeding ground (breeding being HIS words, not mine) than anything else–or at least that’s the only thing that seems to be of importance to him. Since no one can answer that question without getting defensive that it was asked, I’ll assume that the answer is for women to be seen, not heard. And if the women of that parish are OK with it, so be it. I just pray for vocations to be from parishes that are more concerned with full parish life.

 

[ColNY]

Good. Because, um, most Roman Catholics understand that

and therefore would never make this rhetorical and politically-originating statement

or ask these rhetorical questions:

Because if you understood the Roman Church’s teachings, you would never ask those questions, nor resort to irrelevant populist rhetoric about the Church established by Jesus Christ.

One last point… . before you start questioning someone’s faith because they don’t subscribe to the EXACT beliefs you do (and apparently Rome has no problem with mine, either), look into your heart and ask yourself—is judging what Jesus would do?

 

[Elizabeth502]

It nevers sees to amaze me how some people can question your faith because you ask a question about something they agree with.

(1) Not questioning your faith. I was questioning the scope of your information, as implied, and sitll implied, by your own language.
(2) There’s nothing to “agree with” or disagree with in my post which you quoted. Either you understand the content (not a political, social, or emotional position or preference) of the Roman Church’s teachings on women and their full inclusion into every aspect of faith except the ministerial priesthood, or you do not understand that about your Faith. One or the other.

Rome allows girl altar servers.

No one here, including I, has disputed that. What’s disputed is whether they should be mandated universally to allow altar servers. You seem to think that all parishes should be so mandated, but Rome does not agree with you.

And I don’t see how my questions are rhetorical.

You use political rhetoric borrowed from the secular feminist movement (e.g., “Old Boys’ Club”) to discuss Roman Catholic liturgical practices: that’s “how.” And your tone is political, i.m.o, not religious.

 

[Elizabeth502]

before you start questioning someone’s faith

Straw man. Never questioned your personal faith. I questioned your knowledge of Church positions and Church teaching. Big difference. I’m allowed to do that. In fact, Jesus allows that, too (since you asked).

 

[Corki]

I’m Roman Catholic.

Since you embedded your comments instead of using the quote feature, I will probably do a poor job of replying but it isn’t my fault.

He’s promoting the notion that in order to desire to be a priest, you have to want to be part of a “club”.

Prove it. In which post did he say anything of the sort?

There’s an exclusiveness–including being “invited” to participate, that rings more of a fraternity than of humble service to God.

It’s an inclusiveness rather than an exclusiveness. I have been in parishes with all-male and with co-ed altar servers but in all of those parishes, it was an invitation made personally by the priest.

Second, all I asked was for him to say what is in his parish to encourage girls the same way they do boys.

If you want to talk about ways to encourage girls (hopefully, not to the priesthood) that’s a topic for another thread.

Truth is—up until girls were allowed to serve as altar servers, there has been NOTHING that encourages them to be part of the Mass.

That’s a problem with the parish, not with the altar serving. At our parish, all the girls are encouraged to participate in Mass whether or not they are schedule to or are old enough to altar serve. In fact, **everyone **is encouraged to be part of Mass – that’s the definition of Liturgy.

 

[Brendan]

Or, that breeds the notion of it being an “old boys club.”

Actually, they are quite young

So it’s not a competition–it’s a quota

No, God sents vocations abundantly, but it seems that in some parishes, the ground is not fertile. We are simply investigating as to why.

Not everyone’s. Mine doesn’t show.

I understand that. But you questioned if I was in the US. I was simply pointing out the logical place to look before asking that question of a poster.

Answer me this: WHAT do you have to encourage the girls/young women in your faith–be it towards religious life or just continued participation in the faith? What are the girls “allowed” to do? How many families with girls still go to your church? I’d be curious to see… . . seems to me, all you’re concerned about is breeding priests in your parish. Tell me–what is your parish doing to make faith accessible to ALL? Or are you just taking lessons from the other predominant faith in the Detroit area and how they regard women?

I have mentioned this several times in this thread

There are four primary charism of women’s relious orders: Contemplative, Mendicant, Teaching and Health care.

For girls to get the experience of the four charisms they would encounter, (and thus spend their lives at)

1. Contemplative - girls should spend time in Adoration
2. Mendicant - girls should work with the poor, perhaps a local soup kitchen
3. Teaching - girls should assist with their parish catechism classes as a teacher assitant
   4 Health care - girls should help out at a local nursing home

No women’s religious has ‘service at the altar’ as their charism like the priest does.

So to develop a vocation, one should spend their time doing what the religious charism would be. That would include the above for girls (and boys seeking monastic life) and altar service for boys, as that would emulate the priest.

Disagree. He’s promoting the notion that in order to desire to be a priest, you have to want to be part of a “club”. There’s an exclusiveness–including being “invited” to participate, that rings more of a fraternity than of humble service to God. That’s what I think and I’m sticking to it.

.

No, I’m saying that if one desires to do what the Vatican has requested and 'encourage large groups of boys", one needs to operate in a way that is compatable to the way young boys thing.

They are attracted to teams, you can see that in their play, they naturally form teams.

If one works with that, and makes the team ‘fun’, then you attract large groups of boys.

Combine that with a direction and activites that favor them exploring vocations, and you create fertile ground for any call that God chosen to give.

 

[Brendan]

CoINY:

Answer me this: WHAT do you have to encourage the girls/young women in your faith–be it towards religious life or just continued participation in the faith? What are the girls “allowed” to do? How many families with girls still go to your church?

Yes, there are lots of families with girls. I myself have 4 girls. The 3 oldest are in the children’s choir. The four year old is still a bit young, The children’s choir director ( a woman) requires that they be able to read first.

I’d be curious to see… . . seems to me, all you’re concerned about is breeding priests in your parish. Tell me–what is your parish doing to make faith accessible to ALL?

The same way Faith has been made accessable to all throughout the Church’s history: By the faithful hearing the Lord’s Word proclaimed at Mass, by the Homily and the reception of our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.

This is the way that all the great saints (male and female) gained their Faith, so it’s clearly a method that works.

The majority of the canonized saints of the Church are actually women, and I would be hard pressed to think of one that was an altar server. For the male saints, the reverse is true, there are very few that did NOT serve God at His altar in one capacity or another.

So again, there is a tried and true method we can all learn from.

In addition, there is also the Sacraments, particularly the hearing of Confessions.

Which brings up another great point. Our pastor hears confessions for a half hour before every Mass. Which means that he counts on the altarboys to prepare the altar, including setting the ribbons in the correct places for the Sacramentary, the Book of the Gospels and the Lectionary ( granted one of the Deacons will do this for the Sunday Masses).

So when our pastor comes out of the confessional just prior to the start of Mass, everything is preparted and the altarboys are lined up for procession. This is done under the supervision of the older boys.

Or are you just taking lessons from the other predominant faith in the Detroit area and how they regard women?

No, we take our lessons from the teachings and example of Rome, particularly the examples of both Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict, as well as that wonderful apostolic letter, Mulieris Dignitatem.

If you haven’t read that one, I would encourage you to do so.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_15081988_mulieris-dignitatem_en.html

 

[Corki]

Or are you just taking lessons from the other predominant faith **in the Detroit area **and how they regard women?

I am guessing that you have very little knowledge of the state of parish life in the diocese of Detroit or you would know how hysterically funny that statement is.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Right. Which means we also have to ‘accept’ if the bishop or an individual priest does NOT permit female altar servers. (Such as the diocese of Arlington VA in addition to Phoenix I believe.)

That’s why Karen, above, who says that she ‘won’t support financially’ a priest or bishop who DOESN’T allow female altar servers is as wrong in her viewpoint as somebody who says that he (or she) won’t support financially a priest or bishop who DOES allow female servers.

True…if you are in a parish…and part of the precepts of the Church are time, talent, and treasure…no? Of course, if a priest does exercise that right…one would hope that they also have a kindly disposition towards girls/women. Some go too far in my opinion by saying that women can not be readers or EMHC’s (if needed).

Our priest decides to use female altar servers…as within his right. However I noticed that for Wed Benediction, he only picks a male to help…also ok.

 

[rlg94086]

Robert, were those two waves equivalent to hand-raises affirming a lack of female domination of parish participation?

Yes…it was the closest smiley I could find.

We do have a very active Knights of Columbus council, but women play a disproportionately active role in the parish.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Yes…it was the closest smiley I could find.

We do have a very active Knights of Columbus council, but women play a disproportionately active role in the parish.

Therefore, you didn’t “obey” my “commands.”

I said raise your hand if it is not true that women are disproportionately active.

(But I have your answer; that’s fine. All is forgiven.)

 

[rlg94086]

Therefore, you didn’t “obey” my “commands.”

I said raise your hand if it is not true that women are disproportionately active.

(But I have your answer; that’s fine. All is forgiven.)

Dang it! I read it too fast… Appropriate smiley: :doh2:

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Therefore, you didn’t “obey” my “commands.”

I said raise your hand if it is not true that women are disproportionately active.

(But I have your answer; that’s fine. All is forgiven.)

But is that because there doesn’t seem to be a lot of men around? There are more woman in the faith? I know at Wed night Mass when Fr. is looking for a man for benediction…there are only a few. I’m sorry…maybe you didn’t mean this…but that is NOT the woman’s fault…

 

[rlg94086]

But is that because there doesn’t seem to be a lot of men around? There are more woman in the faith? I know at Wed night Mass when Fr. is looking for a man for benediction…there are only a few. I’m sorry…maybe you didn’t mean this…but that is NOT the woman’s fault…

I believe her point is that women are more active in the parish. That is neither a good nor bad thing, necessarily. It was to contrast the many posts that seem to imply that women are being excluded from opportunities because of an all-male altar service program. Women participate very actively in most parishes.

 

[Elizabeth502]

But is that because there doesn’t seem to be a lot of men around? There are more woman in the faith? I know at Wed night Mass when Fr. is looking for a man for benediction…there are only a few. I’m sorry…maybe you didn’t mean this…but that is NOT the woman’s fault…

What are you talking about? No one said a thing about “the woman’s/women’s fault,” or for that matter anyone’s “fault.” Your questions don’t even follow from the dialogue that occurred. You’ll have to go back and reread in sequence; then maybe you’ll understand the point that was being made, which is not related to anything you’re “arguing” or “contradicting.”

And yes, Robert got it right. (Thanks, Robert. ) I believe that Dakota also said that women essentially run his parish as well, and that is true in most parishes across the country as well.

 

[Brendan]

Therefore, you didn’t “obey” my “commands.”

I said raise your hand if it is not true that women are disproportionately active.

(But I have your answer; that’s fine. All is forgiven.)

See, I stayed in my seat quietly and didn’t raise MY hand when it wasn’t appropriate… Do I get a gold star, teacher?