Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

[Elizabeth502]

See, I stayed in my seat quietly and didn’t raise MY hand when it wasn’t appropriate… Do I get a gold star, teacher?

:yup::clapping:

nice, Brendan. Good boy.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

What are you talking about? No one said a thing about “the woman’s/women’s fault,” or for that matter anyone’s “fault.” Your questions don’t even follow from the dialogue that occurred. You’ll have to go back and reread in sequence; then maybe you’ll understand the point that was being made, which is not related to anything you’re “arguing” or “contradicting.”

And yes, Robert got it right. (Thanks, Robert. ) I believe that Dakota also said that women essentially run his parish as well, and that is true in most parishes across the country as well.

I don’t mean to argue anything or contradict you…I was trying to put some things in perspective. Earlier in this thread and in other threads, some have said that a woman has no place other then as a nun. They will lament that women run “everything” and that women should not be readers or EMHC’s or such and that they are pushing men out of the faith. Some will argue that they are trying to be “priests”. This helps to fuel some of tension that we see regarding altar girls.

Maybe if some of those attitudes could be changed then maybe some of the hard lined attitudes here regading a priests right to choose only male altar servers could be changed or at least accepted:shrug: Maybe not:shrug:

 

[Corki]

I don’t mean to argue anything or contradict you…I was trying to put some things in perspective. Earlier in this thread and in other threads, some have said that a woman has no place other then as a nun. They will lament that women run “everything” and that women should not be readers or EMHC’s or such and that they are pushing men out of the faith. Some will argue that they are trying to be “priests”. This helps to fuel some of tension that we see regarding altar girls.

Maybe if some of those attitudes could be changed then maybe some of the hard lined attitudes here regading a priests right to choose only male altar servers could be changed or at least accepted:shrug: Maybe not:shrug:

Are you trying to change attitudes or do you want people to ignore reality?

In some parishes women really DO run everything.

There really ARE some women who want to be priests.

And there really ARE some girls who push or tease the boys out of the altar serving ranks.

I challenge you to point to a single post in this thread that "argues"that a woman has no other place than as a nun. The only people who use that languageare those who want female equality in the Church and are accusing others of being sexist.

As for the priest’s right to choose all males, that is not correct. A priest does not have to “choose” to use male altar servers. That is the default. No choice required. On the other hand, a priest (or Bishop) has to choose to veer from the norm to also include girls. That’s the optional way to proceed.

What tension do you want to difuse?

 

[Elizabeth502]

Earlier in this thread and in other threads, some have said that a woman has no place other then as a nun. They will lament that women run “everything” and that women should not be readers or EMHC’s or such and that they are pushing men out of the faith. Some will argue that they are trying to be “priests”. This helps to fuel some of tension that we see regarding altar girls.

But I’m not one of the “them” and the “some.” Therefore, your “reply” to me specifically was non-responsive. Again, you would have to go back and see to whom and to what I was replying.

 

[wald]

The Chapel we attend only allows boys to serve and has no problem getting servers. If parents be parents and teach children how important this service is, there shouldn’t be a problem and vocations will flourish. It’s not about boys or girls being equal, it’s about what the Church teaches to foster vocations.

 

[ColNY]

I don’t mean to argue anything or contradict you…I was trying to put some things in perspective. Earlier in this thread and in other threads, some have said that a woman has no place other then as a nun. They will lament that women run “everything” and that women should not be readers or EMHC’s or such and that they are pushing men out of the faith. Some will argue that they are trying to be “priests”. This helps to fuel some of tension that we see regarding altar girls.

Maybe if some of those attitudes could be changed then maybe some of the hard lined attitudes here regading a priests right to choose only male altar servers could be changed or at least accepted:shrug: Maybe not:shrug:

Which hard line attitudes are you looking to change? Those in favor of boys only servers or those who see a benefit to girls being allowed to serve?

Just curious.

 

[Corki]

Which hard line attitudes are you looking to change? Those in favor of boys only servers or those who see a benefit to girls being allowed to serve?

Just curious.

The two are not necessarily opposing positions. I think the link in the OP shows that you can hold both positions at the same time. The Bishop of Phoenix wants boy-only servers at one Church but doesn’t discount the benefit to other parishes of having girls too.

Another possibility is that one can see a benefit of girls serving but that that benefit is overshadowed by the benefits of male-only servers.

 

[Elizabeth502]

This:

The Chapel we attend only allows boys to serve and has no problem getting servers. If parents be parents and teach children how important this service is, there shouldn’t be a problem and vocations will flourish. It’s not about boys or girls being equal, it’s about what the Church teaches to foster vocations.

and this:

Another possibility is that one can see a benefit of girls serving but that that benefit is overshadowed by the benefits of male-only servers.

and especially given the current pressing needs of the Church for priestly vocations, a need which Catholics should also support as outranking other less critical needs.

 

[ColNY]

The two are not necessarily opposing positions. I think the link in the OP shows that you can hold both positions at the same time. The Bishop of Phoenix wants boy-only servers at one Church but doesn’t discount the benefit to other parishes of having girls too.

Another possibility is that one can see a benefit of girls serving but that that benefit is overshadowed by the benefits of male-only servers.

OK–now that’s a reasonable way to look at it. My concern comes from those who never want to see a girl serving as altar server and put blame on girls from the reduction in boys choosing to serve. The way I’ll look at this issue comes from if this is what a particular parish feels they want to promote–like Brendan’s parish does–then that is their “speciality” so to speak. I hope that those who think this is the “model” parish will recognize and respect that this is not the model for all parishes/dioceses. As I said before, we’ve only had girls serving for 10 years. And the “boys only” model didn’t net any more priests. But allowing girls to participate has helped a number of girls, as well as boys, feel a deeper connection to their faith and for that I feel there is a great value.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

But I’m not one of the “them” and the “some.” Therefore, your “reply” to me specifically was non-responsive. Again, you would have to go back and see to whom and to what I was replying.

EXCUSE me…I thought we were having a general discussion. I was under the impression that you were included in that…I think you are taking things too personal…

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

OK–now that’s a reasonable way to look at it. My concern comes from those who never want to see a girl serving as altar server and put blame on girls from the reduction in boys choosing to serve. The way I’ll look at this issue comes from if this is what a particular parish feels they want to promote–like Brendan’s parish does–then that is their “speciality” so to speak. I hope that those who think this is the “model” parish will recognize and respect that this is not the model for all parishes/dioceses. As I said before, we’ve only had girls serving for 10 years. And the “boys only” model didn’t net any more priests. But allowing girls to participate has helped a number of girls, as well as boys, feel a deeper connection to their faith and for that I feel there is a great value.

I probably look at it that way…I see nothing wrong with girls serving too and I don’t agree that it necessarily leads to vocations. I think there are lots of ways to encourage priestly vocations. HOWEVER…I get the right of priest to go with only boys…and I recognize the right of the Church to do that and that she has allowed that option. So…I have to accept that.

However personally I’m glad our priest does allow both boys and girls.

 

[Karenfern]

This:

and this:

and especially given the current pressing needs of the Church for priestly vocations, a need which Catholics should also support as outranking other less critical needs.

Pardon me but how does barring woman from anything support priestly vocations? It makes for a dangerous fear on the part of seminarians and priests that women are somehow a vessel of temptation and corruption rather than an ease with women that allows confessors to understand what women are about and to stand up for their rights as partners in creation. I’m not sure a woman would be able to flourish in her relationship to God if that is the kind of priests the Church is turning out. Boys should see girls as their equal from the get go and that means they ought to be welcomed at the altar along with their male counterparts.

 

[rlg94086]

Pardon me but how does barring woman from anything support priestly vocations? It makes for a dangerous fear on the part of seminarians and priests that women are somehow a vessel of temptation and corruption rather than an ease with women that allows confessors to understand what women are about and to stand up for their rights as **partners in creation. **I’m not sure a woman would be able to flourish in her relationship to God if that is the kind of priests the Church is turning out. Boys should see girls as their equal from the get go and that means they ought to be welcomed at the altar along with their male counterparts.

That is just over-the-top straw man argumentation. No one is arguing that women are a “vessel of temptation and corruption” to be “feared.” You remind me of the feminists who tried to force the Boy Scouts to include girls. “Partners in creation” does not mean complete equality of roles. Having all-male altar servers and an all-male priesthood does not diminish the role of women. We are equal in dignity and value, but that doesn’t mean we all have to do the same thing. Fraternity within the genders is an important aspect of our complimentary nature.

 

[louis91766]

My policy is this: I would not drop my five bucks into the collection at the Phoenix Cathedral. Rather, I would use the little form to write a curt note saying “No girls, no money.” That would be opened by the accounting staff of the Cathedral and conveyed to the rector. I will not support an institution that bans girls from serving at the altar. Lest it be thought of as Anti-Catholic, I donated hymnals to the Fordham University church because they thought differently. I am a woman and I respect the right of women to participate in the worship of God at a level higher than laundering the altar cloth or arranging flowers. I believe those are valuable services, don’t get me wrong, but a woman capable of serving at mass is a treasure to be encouraged, not prohibited. If boys are scandalized by serving with girls at mass, they ought not be serving at all.

If you are Jewish, then generally wouldn’t you be worshipping in a synagogue and not in a Catholic Church? And BTW, isn’t it true that women are not allowed to be Orthodox Jewish rabbis?

 

[Holly3278]

I see this as good news. I think that there shouldn’t even be such a thing as altar girls but that is just the traditional Catholic in me I guess.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Pardon me but how does barring woman from anything support priestly vocations? It makes for a dangerous fear on the part of seminarians and priests that women are somehow a vessel of temptation and corruption rather than an ease with women that allows confessors to understand what women are about and to stand up for their rights as partners in creation. I’m not sure a woman would be able to flourish in her relationship to God if that is the kind of priests the Church is turning out. Boys should see girls as their equal from the get go and that means they ought to be welcomed at the altar along with their male counterparts.

Karen, the short answer is that in Catholicism, for a woman to be an equal partner in creation, and an equal partner in worship, and equal in stature before God, she need not perform the same functions as those of a ministerial priest. It is not related to “fear” or “temptation” or “corruption.” It is related to a permanently all-male priesthood which is not a concept which (certainly Reform) Judaism embraces. The last bat-mitzvah I attended featured a female rabbi and male cantor, standing side by side at the bema.

Boys are not shown or told that not having girls as priests makes girls unequal or inferior to them, makes them of lesser value or importance. That is not the theology. It’s a matter of appointment and function. Boys raised well in Catholicism, by respectful fathers, are taught to respect, honor, revere women as having gifts and purposes no man can have (not just child-bearing, but many other features particular to women and not shared by men).

Shalom,
Elizabeth

 

[louis91766]

Karen, the short answer is that in Catholicism, for a woman to be an equal partner in creation, and an equal partner in worship, and equal in stature before God, she need not perform the same functions as those of a ministerial priest. It is not related to “fear” or “temptation” or “corruption.” It is related to a permanently all-male priesthood which is not a concept which (certainly Reform) Judaism embraces. The last bat-mitzvah I attended featured a female rabbi and male cantor, standing side by side at the bema.

Boys are not shown or told that not having girls as priests makes girls unequal or inferior to them, makes them of lesser value or importance. That is not the theology. It’s a matter of appointment and function. Boys raised well in Catholicism, by respectful fathers, are taught to respect, honor, revere women as having gifts and purposes no man can have (not just child-bearing, but many other features particular to women and not shared by men).

Shalom,
Elizabeth

If someone said that women and men are equal but that they should not perform the same functions, such as women should not be allowed to drive or to vote, and men should not be allowed to do housecleaning or changing baby diapers, then how would someone respond to that?

 

[Corki]

If someone said that women and men are equal but that they should not perform the same functions, such as women should not be allowed to drive or to vote, and men should not be allowed to do housecleaning or changing baby diapers, then how would someone respond to that?

How is that relevant or even helpful? Do you understand that women can’t be priests and men can’t be nuns? Nor can men be mothers or men be fathers. Driving and voting are privaleges conferred by the state. Not anywhere near the same thing. Housecleaning and changing diapers are tasks - again not anywhere near the same thing.

Sometimes tasks overlap. For example, a female lay person might have the tasks that are ordinarily part of a pastor’s job. But that doesn’t make her the pastor.

Or a lay person might read the readings at Mass in the absense of an instituated lector but that doesn’t make him/her a lector.

Prior to the change that allowed Bishops to permit female altar servers, there were allowances for women who did many of the same tasks, for example in convents where there were no boys to serve. But they did so without the “title” or permanence of being an altar server.

Comparing altar serving to voting just takes the discussion in an odd direction off topic.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Are you trying to change attitudes or do you want people to ignore reality?

In some parishes women really DO run everything.

There really ARE some women who want to be priests.

And there really ARE some girls who push or tease the boys out of the altar serving ranks.

I challenge you to point to a single post in this thread that "argues"that a woman has no other place than as a nun. The only people who use that languageare those who want female equality in the Church and are accusing others of being sexist.

As for the priest’s right to choose all males, that is not correct. A priest does not have to “choose” to use male altar servers. That is the default. No choice required. On the other hand, a priest (or Bishop) has to choose to veer from the norm to also include girls. That’s the optional way to proceed.

What tension do you want to difuse?

Trying to change attitudes…but it you want to look at reality…there really are those trying to marginalize women…there really are priest who use to tell women it was their duty to go home to an abusive husband…it happened to and still does. I’m going to post just a few quotes from this thread…and we all know that there are many more like it out there…just hang out in the traditionalist forumn for a while.

"

*God must be weeping over this evil generation. His wrath will come in due time. God hates disobedience. It is a shame that our sheppards no longer have courage to speak against the evil in the hearts of men. Women have no place in the Sanctuary.

To me it is ackward to see girls sitting side by side with a priests. to see priests washing women’s feet. this is very worldly.

Or woman acolyte running around altar in her high heel slippers pretending to be more important than the priest himself. My son asked me: “Mom, who is that woman priest?”.

I am with you, no females at the altar, period.

Keeping this in mind, any time when a girl is on the altar serving, is being wasted as to its basic purpose.

Was Paul sexist when he said that women are to remain silent in the Church?
The feminist theologians in the RCC do not agree with this." *​

As far as the priests right to choose all males…fine…semantics…I said that we have to recognize it. Fine…then we recognize that he has the right to not choose the option. There…does that make you happy? Oh…but then again we also should recognize the Bishops and then the priest’s right to choose the option as well. And it’s an option allowed by Holy Mother Church.

The tension I’m trying to diffuse can come from some of the statements quoted above. Because then it really does appear like women are trying to be marginilized and disregarded…which is not a Christ like attitude. Nor does it help for people to see the issue/or norms as there becomes a knee jerk reaction.

 

[YoungTradCath]

As far as the priests right to choose all males…fine…semantics…I said that we have to recognize it. Fine…then we recognize that he has the right to not choose the option. There…does that make you happy? Oh…but then again we also should recognize the Bishops and then the priest’s right to choose the option as well. And it’s an option allowed by Holy Mother Church.

The tension I’m trying to diffuse can come from some of the statements quoted above. Because then it really does appear like women are trying to be marginilized and disregarded…which is not a Christ like attitude. Nor does it help for people to see the issue/or norms as there becomes a knee jerk reaction.

Madam, that’s more than semantics.

Oh and, by the way, women aren’t marginalized by not being allowed to serve at the altar, and people who view women as marginal beings aren’t changing their opinions based on them being allowed to serve at the altar.

If allowing women to serve at the altar is just an attempt to right a perceived marginalization of women, then it’s a really poor attempt.