Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

[hudson]

IrishPatrick, your use of broad generalizations and unsupported conclusions makes it hard to have a conversation.

I’ll give you just a few points:

1. To say that X% of priests were altar servers means nothing. It’s like saying a certain number of people my age became CEOs because they had a lemonade stand at one point in their childhood. We all did! In my Catholic grade school, we were all altar boys at one point or another. You can’t say it caused a certain behavior, because the majority of boys who were altar servers did not become priests.
2. I know of many parents my age who, in the last 10 to 15 years, have refused to allow their boys to be altar boys. I don’t have to spell out why.
3. Saying Mass, while the penultimate experience for a priest, is only a small part of what a priest does every week. Encouraging boys to to believe that being a priest is all about dressing up in vestments and having everyone hang on their every word gives them a very skewed view of the priesthood. Vocations come from something deeper than, “I was an altar boy - I should be a priest.”
4. Being able to interact with both sexes as people of equal worth in the sight of God is a good thing for a boy to learn.

What a worthless post. I agree with everyone giving support to this Priest. Thank you Pope Benedict for leading our Church away from the Spirit of Vatican II crowd. I will be sure to remember your name so as to never follow any advice you give.

 

[PaulinVA]

However, your number 3 above is a vile response, and I simply will not take this conversation any further with someone who can say things like that. That one response (number 3) also fully demonstrates your lack of understanding of the true central importance of the Mass to each Catholic and to the world.

Yet, I do thank you for the chat.

Please take each of the three sentences in my statement #3 and tell me whether they are true or not. There is nothing vile in these three sentences. Here we go, just answer true or false.

1. Saying Mass, while the penultimate experience for a priest, is only a small part of what a priest does every week.
2. Encouraging boys to to believe that being a priest is all about dressing up in vestments and having everyone hang on their every word gives them a very skewed view of the priesthood.
3. Vocations come from something deeper than, “I was an altar boy - I should be a priest.”

 

[Brendan]

IrishPatrick, your use of broad generalizations and unsupported conclusions makes it hard to have a conversation.

I’ll give you just a few points:

1. To say that X% of priests were altar servers means nothing. It’s like saying a certain number of people my age became CEOs because they had a lemonade stand at one point in their childhood. We all did! In my Catholic grade school, we were all altar boys at one point or another. You can’t say it caused a certain behavior, because the majority of boys who were altar servers did not become priests.

Paul, you are making the same error that Z did earlier in the thread.

Please refer to my response there.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8290333&postcount=87

 

[irishpatrick]

**PaulinVA, **

Please, do not waste your time by responding to me personally. I stated I am done with our conversation on this thread because I view your statements to be vile.

Thank you for you understanding my request.

 

[PaulinVA]

Paul, you are making the same error that Z did earlier in the thread.

Please refer to my response there.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8290333&postcount=87

Brendan, thank you for your polite response. Yes, we have discussed this before. I do understand that the Church continues to believe, “**not least of all due to the well known assistance that such programs have provided since time immemorial in encouraging future priestly vocations” **

Perhaps you could break down what it is about serving at the altar with other boys that is a priestly vocation enhancer. Is it the entire weight of the experience, or is it a specific part?

In parishes such as yours, where there is a great pressure upon boys to participate in Mass as an altar server (over 70 boys serving every Sunday), does that put undue pressure on boys to express a priestly vocation as well?

 

[Brendan]

Perhaps you could break down what it is about serving at the altar with other boys that is a priestly vocation enhancer. Is it the entire weight of the experience, or is it a specific part?

Both. First of all, it teaches the dedication of self to serve at the Mass. It is the strong familiarity with the Mass, which is the keystone of the calling of the ministerial priesthood.

As the boys grow up, they often see themselves moving to ‘the next level’, the 5 year olds see the older boys carrying the swing torches, the 7 year olds see the older boys helping with offetory and handing the priest the cruets. The 10 year olds see the older boys holding the patens at communion time, the 12 year olds see the older boys turning the pages of the Sacramentary for the priest, the 15 year olds see some of their number selected to lector instead of serve.

In each case, they see themselves moving up a level, until the college aged and college see the final step, that of becoming a priest.

It is not for all of them, but the process breeds fertile ground for those few on whom God has sown the seed of a vocation to the priesthood.

That is really what it is all about, the parable of the sower. We do not know on whom the see of priesthood will be sown, what we CAN do is to be good gardeners, to that the ground is the most fertile and the chokeing weeds the fewest.

A pastor can only do so much with the boys in his parish, but he would be remiss in doing all that he can. And my pastor has shown, via the number of seeds have have taken root, that a pastor can do quite a lot if he uses the tools at his disposal well.

In parishes such as yours, where there is a great pressure upon boys to participate in Mass as an altar server (over 70 boys serving every Sunday), does that put undue pressure on boys to express a priestly vocation as well?

Define ‘great pressure’. Do you mean great desire? I have yet to meet a 5 year old who is not waiting (somewhat less than patiently) for Fr. to extend the offer, and is not super excited when Fr. asks him to join? Is that how you describe ‘great pressure’

As for the other boys, do you consider that a desire for boys to be together to be “great pressure”?

What exactly do you mean by ‘great pressure’ and who do you feel is applying it?

Regarding the priesthood, the diocesan staff and the formation teams at the seminary are well equiped to help a young man discern if the calling is a true one, so if there was any pressure at all, it would be at most the pressure to contact the diocesan vocations director.

 

[Brendan]

Brendan, thank you for your polite response. Yes, we have discussed this before. I do understand that the Church continues to believe, “**not least of all due to the well known assistance that such programs have provided since time immemorial in encouraging future priestly vocations” **

Paul,

You stated, correctly, that the Church believes that altar boy programs encourage future priestly vocations.

Is that something that you too hold?, or do have some information that the Church lacks that proves the contrary?

 

[PaulinVA]

Both. First of all, it teaches the dedication of self to serve at the Mass. It is the strong familiarity with the Mass, which is the keystone of the calling of the ministerial priesthood.

But wouldn’t sitting in the congregation foster this more fully? Sitting in the congregation, a boy can take it all in without worry of what his part is or what he needs to do next. Closeness to the altar does not make it more real. Nor does being given a task to concentrate on during the Mass.

I’m not sure I buy that familiarity with the Mass is the keystone to the calling. I think serving others in many aspects of life marks the calling. You know, to start the discernment process for the Permanent Deaconate one of the first things you do is list all of the things you are doing in your parish *right now. *If you are not already serving, because you can’t help yourself, it just bubbles up, then your call is questioned. ( I am not in discernment and this is second-hand knowledge.)

As the boys grow up, they often see themselves moving to ‘the next level’, the 5 year olds see the older boys carrying the swing torches, the 7 year olds see the older boys helping with offetory and handing the priest the cruets. The 10 year olds see the older boys holding the patens at communion time, the 12 year olds see the older boys turning the pages of the Sacramentary for the priest, the 15 year olds see some of their number selected to lector instead of serve.

In each case, they see themselves moving up a level, until the college aged and college see the final step, that of becoming a priest.

What you describe sounds like a very good plan to persuade young men that they are called to be priests.

Define ‘great pressure’. Do you mean great desire? I have yet to meet a 5 year old who is not waiting (somewhat less than patiently) for Fr. to extend the offer, and is not super excited when Fr. asks him to join? Is that how you describe ‘great pressure’
As for the other boys, do you consider that a desire for boys to be together to be “great pressure”? What exactly do you mean by ‘great pressure’ and who do you feel is applying it?

Your entire parish is geared towards making that five year old want to do what the older boys are doing. From the time he was cognizant he knew that was his place. That is the pressure I was talking about, exerted by parents and priests, that you want to, you have to, become “one of them”.

As to your second question, about the altar boy program encouraging future vocations, no, I don’t think that is true now. The information I have to prove the opposite? The abuse scandals. I’m sorry, but I have to say it.

 

[dmorgan]

IrishPatrick, your use of broad generalizations and unsupported conclusions makes it hard to have a conversation.

1. Saying Mass, while the penultimate experience for a priest, is only a small part of what a priest does every week. Encouraging boys to to believe that being a priest is all about dressing up in vestments and having everyone hang on their every word gives them a very skewed view of the priesthood. Vocations come from something deeper than, “I was an altar boy - I should be a priest.”

From Mirae Caritatis by His Holiness Pope Leo XIII

1. In a word this Sacrament is, as it were, the very soul of the Church; and to it the grace of the priesthood is ordered and directed in all its fulness and in each of its successive grades. From the same source the Church draws and has all her strength, all her glory, her every supernatural endowment and adornment, every good thing that is here; wherefore she makes it the chiefest of all her cares to prepare the hearts of the faithful for an intimate union with Christ through the Sacrament of His Body and Blood, and to draw them thereto. And to this end she strives to promote the veneration of the august mystery by surrounding it with holy ceremonies. To this ceaseless and ever watchful care of the Church or Mother, our attention is drawn by that exhortation which was uttered by the holy Council of Trent, and which is so much to the purpose that for the benefit of the Christian people We here reproduce it in its entirety. “The Holy Synod admonishes, exhorts, asks and implores by the tender mercy of our God, that all and each of those who bear the name of Christian should at last unite and find peace in this sign of unity, in this bond of charity, in this symbol of concord; and that, mindful of the great majesty and singular love of Jesus Christ our Lord, Who gave His precious life as the price of our salvation, and His flesh for our food, they should believe and revere these sacred mysteries of His Body and Blood with such constancy of unwavering faith, with such interior devotion and worshipful piety, that they may be in condition to receive frequently that supersubstantial bread, and that it may be to them the life of their souls and keep their mind in soundness of faith; so that strengthened with its strength they may be enabled after the journey of this sorrowful pilgrimage to reach the heavenly country, there to see and feed upon that bread of angels which here they eat under the sacramental veils” (Conc. Trid., Sess. XXII., c. vi).

If you do not understand the primacy of the Mass in Catholic theology, you are missing the most important part of your faith. I will pray for you.

Pax Christi

 

[PaulinVA]

If you do not understand the primacy of the Mass in Catholic theology, you are missing the most important part of your faith. I will pray for you.

Pax Christi

Thank you, but we are not talking about Catholic theology, we are talking about altar serving and whether it is a useful too for discerning vocations and whether boys can discern a priestly vacation after serving with girls. What you quoted has nothing to do with that.

I certainly understand the primacy of the Mass. And I’m sure you did not mean to sound snarky and condescending when you said you would pray for me.

 

[Brendan]

But wouldn’t sitting in the congregation foster this more fully? Sitting in the congregation, a boy can take it all in without worry of what his part is or what he needs to do next. Closeness to the altar does not make it more real. Nor does being given a task to concentrate on during the Mass.

The Sacrerdotal priesthood is all about being at the altar in service to God and His people, thus, providing the glimpse into the priesthood will likewise invovle being at the altar in service.

How often does a priest sit in the pews with his family??

I’m not sure I buy that familiarity with the Mass is the keystone to the calling.

I said that he MASS that is the keystone calling OF the Ministerial Priesthood. It is the penultimate expression of the priesthood.
And DMorgan answered that well enough.

is the I think serving others in many aspects of life marks the calling.

The Minsterial Priesthood has The Mass, Confession and Anointing of the Sick as it’s distinctions from the myriad of calls in the Church to serve others. The priest serves others in the fullest way when he (as Christ) offers Christ Himself as an offering to the Father.

You know, to start the discernment process for the Permanent Deaconate one of the first things you do is list all of the things you are doing in your parish *right now. *

Actually, the service requirements to others does not, of necessity, require parish activity. Other forms of service are considered to be equal. I was in Diaconate formation for 3 years, until kids #5 and now #6 came along. My wife and I decided to postpone Ordination until she no longer needed help in the pews.

Also, the two are distinct callings. The calling of the Diaconate was articulated in Act 6, where they were Ordained to take over the care of widows and children so the priests could focus on preaching.

If you are not already serving, because you can’t help yourself, it just bubbles up, then your call is questioned. ( I am not in discernment and this is second-hand knowledge.)[/qutote]

I HAVE gone through discerment, and am well into formation ( I have completed all the Seminary coursework actually, just waiting on the kids to get bigger and not have to run to the bathroom during Mass

What you describe sounds like a very good plan to persuade young men that they are called to be priests.

One cannot ‘persuade’ a man that he is called to the priesthood. That won’t get far past the vocations director. One can only assist a man in looking to see for himself if he is called, and then to take that to the Church to confirm the calling.

Your entire parish is geared towards making that five year old want to do what the older boys are doing.[/qutoe]

MAKING a 5 year old want to do what older boys are doing???, yea I can see how that involves pressuring a 5 year old

Do you have any experience with 5 year old boys??

From the time he was cognizant he knew that was his place. That is the pressure I was talking about, exerted by parents and priests, that you want to, you have to, become “one of them”.

As to your second question, about the altar boy program encouraging future vocations, no, I don’t think that is true now. The information I have to prove the opposite? The abuse scandals. I’m sorry, but I have to say it.

So you are claiming that you have data that shows the abuse scandals have rendered altar service as no longer encouarging vocations.

Is the sample set that you have discovered larger than the one that the collective bishops of the world are providing to Rome?

I’d like to see that data please.

 

[Brendan]

Or perhaps the time my 11 year old son went to the noon Mass on a weekday. Some of the regualar older boys were not there, so he was tagged to be the Lector.

I suppose it was all that ‘great pressure’ you speak of that inspired that event to make his week.

And all the comments of " Oh man, how lucky was that!" and " I wish I could have done that!!" from the other 11 years old he told at the following Sunday Mass.

Are you actually trying to define ‘great pressure’ as having a pastor tell a boy that he gets to do a new job at the altar, and have have the boy so excited he can’t wait to tell his friends.

Is that your definition?

 

[the_phoenix]

This is good news. I admire this priest for his courage to take this stance.

 

[Phemie]

Could everyone please check the definition of “penultimate”.

 

[Phemie]

“Penultimate”

To quote Inigo Montoya “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”%between%

 

[jediliz]

My entire Diocese is Altar Girl free. We have a full seminary (we are lucky we were able to build one in my state. Before it was built, young men had to travel a long ways away for their first four years). I don’t mind women occasionally reading at Mass (went to a different local parish once for Mass and a woman read the first reading or second reading)) but if we want more priestly vocations,we need to keep altar servers to BOYS ONLY. I’m a girl and if we had been allowed to serve when I was 5th or 6th grade, I wouldn’t have been interested.

I don’t see why girls NEED to serve at Mass to “Feel Equal”?

I am glad at lease ONE parish in Arizona is going more traditional in regards to altar serving.

 

[PaulinVA]

The Sacrerdotal priesthood is all about being at the altar in service to God and His people, thus, providing the glimpse into the priesthood will likewise invovle being at the altar in service.

I said that he MASS that is the keystone calling OF the Ministerial Priesthood. It is the penultimate expression of the priesthood.
And DMorgan answered that well enough.

I agree, and I said, that the Mass is the ultimate expression of the priesthood (thanks, phemie). I also said that there is much more to being a priest, on a practical level. If you lead someone to think that saying Mass is what they would be doing all the time and nothing else, that would be wrong.

The Minsterial Priesthood has The Mass, Confession and Anointing of the Sick as it’s distinctions from the myriad of calls in the Church to serve others. The priest serves others in the fullest way when he (as Christ) offers Christ Himself as an offering to the Father.

Now you’re getting closer to what I am talking about. I would go a step further. The life of service a priest dedicates himself to involves many, many things, big and small. When my oldest son was dying, our parish priest cancelled his days activities, stopped at his favorite little non-chain sub shop and brought lunch to all of us and sat with us all afternoon, telling jokes and comforting us. That was so much more than just the Anointing of the Sick. Our priests pour themselves out for us, all the time. You don’t see that as an altar server. Taking on other peoples’ burdens is extremely hard and takes a toll on them.

I HAVE gone through discerment, and am well into formation ( I have completed all the Seminary coursework actually, just waiting on the kids to get bigger and not have to run to the bathroom during Mass

Yes, I know. That’s why I attempted to weave it into the conversation, albeit awkwardly.

One cannot ‘persuade’ a man that he is called to the priesthood. That won’t get far past the vocations director. One can only assist a man in looking to see for himself if he is called, and then to take that to the Church to confirm the calling.

I think people can be convinced of a lot of things, especially if they are looking to please people. How do you think all of the abusive priests, the embezzlers, the ones who believe they can be actively gay in the priesthood make it through discernment?

Your entire parish is geared towards making that five year old want to do what the older boys are doing.

MAKING a 5 year old want to do what older boys are doing???, yea I can see how that involves pressuring a 5 year old

Do you have any experience with 5 year old boys??

Yep! He’s a lot older now, but was five at one point. You are the one who said the five-year-olds couldn’t wait to be asked. Why do you think that is, if not that the whole community put that expectation on him?

So you are claiming that you have data that shows the abuse scandals have rendered altar service as no longer encouraging vocations.

Is the sample set that you have discovered larger than the one that the collective bishops of the world are providing to Rome?

I’d like to see that data please.

Can you actually ask that question? Your earlier quote post about everyone knows that altar serving leads to vocations is simply corporate think that, I fear, is never proven scientifically.

But, to your question. The abuse scandals have caused many parents to not allow their boys to be altar servers. That is anecdotal, but is just as much a plausible explanation of the decline in male altar servers as the supposition that girls are driving them away. Since boys are being kept from serving, how can it be encouraging vocations? I know this is not the case in your parish, but I know of many parents who did this.

 

[Tigg]

I haven’t read this entire thread, so has the distractions that females can necessarily bring to the altar been addressed?

We went to a neighboring parish a couple of weeks ago. A young girl was serving who had sandals on which made her hot pink toe nails really noticeable; in addition, she had a sort of “frosted” blue eye shadow on, which, incidentally, clashed with the blue color of her dangly earrings. This is not the first time I’ve seen such inappropriate displays of worldly vanity in altar girls.

Does anyone know the rules regarding appearance as I thought servers were to be more “invisible,” and as I have negative feelings about the female presence on the altar anyway, this just added fuel to my fire! Our pastor, at least, insists that no tennis shoes be worn.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I haven’t read this entire thread, so has the distractions that females can necessarily bring to the altar been addressed?

We went to a neighboring parish a couple of weeks ago. A young girl was serving who had sandals on which made her hot pink toe nails really noticeable; in addition, she had a sort of “frosted” blue eye shadow on, which, incidentally, clashed with the blue color of her dangly earrings. This is not the first time I’ve seen such inappropriate displays of worldly vanity in altar girls.

Does anyone know the rules regarding appearance as I thought servers were to be more “invisible,” and as I have negative feelings about the female presence on the altar anyway, this just added fuel to my fire! Our pastor, at least, insists that no tennis shoes be worn.

I remember Scriptures the other this week at Mass. It talks about how God was not happy with His people because they obey some teachings but not others. this applies to our days, we see this happened today. we have become accustomed to some teachings but not others.

 

[Phemie]

But, to your question. The abuse scandals have caused many parents to not allow their boys to be altar servers. That is anecdotal, but is just as much a plausible explanation of the decline in male altar servers as the supposition that girls are driving them away. Since boys are being kept from serving, how can it be encouraging vocations? I know this is not the case in your parish, but I know of many parents who did this.

I have to say that where I live the scandals have absolutely been responsible for the decline in altar servers, boys AND girls, and the parents are very vocal about it. It was only when we had two women volunteer to train them and be with them that some parents consented to allow them to serve. Other than the annual pizza party, their only contact with the priest is during Mass - parents or one of the volunteers accompany them to the sacristy to vest.