Phoenix Arizona Diocese Cathedral Won't Allow Girls Serve On Altar

[ProVobis]

Girl altar servers are not necessary - you are right in that. But, also, Mass goes on even without boy altar servers, too. Mass goes on with no altar servers.

In my neck of the woods, I haven’t seen an altar server (outside of the EF) in years. A deacon can perform all server duties plus read the gospel. A daily Mass just has the priest and speaker.

It seems that churches with schools are more likely to have servers and that’s where most of them are trained, I think.

 

[ProVobis]

“Penultimate”

To quote Inigo Montoya “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”%between%

(I had to respond to this in order to visit your listed website, believe it or not.)

 

[Mrs_Sally]

this is a huge part of the problem. I can complain Here all day about feminism and liberalism and gender confusion, but who’s fault is it really? As long as men, especially my generation, keep acting like boys and sit around playing video games or watching tv or looking at porn instead of focusing on being fathers, husbands, spiritual leaders and servants of God, then none of this will change.

Amen!

I happen to agree with all-boy altar servers (as we have at our parish) partly because it gives boys a role beyond being slumped in a pew waiting for Mass to be over. I also think that young men should continue to serve after high school for the same sort of reason.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I haven’t read this entire thread, so has the distractions that females can necessarily bring to the altar been addressed?

We went to a neighboring parish a couple of weeks ago. A young girl was serving who had sandals on which made her hot pink toe nails really noticeable; in addition, she had a sort of “frosted” blue eye shadow on, which, incidentally, clashed with the blue color of her dangly earrings. This is not the first time I’ve seen such inappropriate displays of worldly vanity in altar girls.

Does anyone know the rules regarding appearance as I thought servers were to be more “invisible,” and as I have negative feelings about the female presence on the altar anyway, this just added fuel to my fire! Our pastor, at least, insists that no tennis shoes be worn.

Too funny! I’ve noticed this also in parishes that allow girls to serve. Usually boys who aren’t paying attention just sit there, slack-jawed, and you only notice when the priest has to poke them. Girls tend to twirl their hair, examine their nails, wiggle their nail-polished toes, etc. It can be very distracting.

On the other hand, 50 or so servers at an ordinary Sunday Mass would also be distracting. Especially if a good proportion were 5-8 year olds behaving as boys of that age often do–even at Mass.

I do want to say though, that I understand PaulinVA’s comments about parents refusing to allow their sons to be altar servers. I know several families who have made this decision also. It is heartbreaking, but true.

I am very pleased with our parish arrangement of only boys serving on a rotating schedule of 4-8 boys at an ordinary Sunday Mass, more for feasts and special occasions. However, me being pleased is not the point. It is the bishop’s prerogative to say if girls can serve at all in his diocese and than pastor’s choice about how things happen within his own parish.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I have to say that where I live the scandals have absolutely been responsible for the decline in altar servers, boys AND girls, and the parents are very vocal about it. It was only when we had two women volunteer to train them and be with them that some parents consented to allow them to serve. Other than the annual pizza party, their only contact with the priest is during Mass - parents or one of the volunteers accompany them to the sacristy to vest.

That is so sad. Good for those women to find away around the issue. I certainly understand the parents’ concerns, but altar boys (servers) are such an ingrained tradition of the church, it hurts to have this be one more fallout of the horrible scandal.

 

[asia53]

Too funny! I’ve noticed this also in parishes that allow girls to serve. Usually boys who aren’t paying attention just sit there, slack-jawed, and you only notice when the priest has to poke them. Girls tend to twirl their hair, examine their nails, wiggle their nail-polished toes, etc. It can be very distracting.

A couple of weeks ago, I went to my friend’s parish for Mass. A male altar server had his hair shaved in a mohawk. The remaining hair had been gelled so much, it stood stiffly at attention. It looked like it could be a lethal weapon. All through mass, he kept touching his gelled spikes. Very, very distracting!

Mass at my home parish, I watched a boy chew his finger nails on both hands.

Your above statement about girls’ tendencies is a gross generalization. Boys or girls, either one, can be a distraction.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

A couple of weeks ago, I went to my friend’s parish for Mass. A male altar server had his hair shaved in a mohawk. The remaining hair had been gelled so much, it stood stiffly at attention. It looked like it could be a lethal weapon. All through mass, he kept touching his gelled spikes. Very, very distracting!

Mass at my home parish, I watched a boy chew his finger nails on both hands.

Your above statement about girls’ tendencies is a gross generalization. Boys or girls, either one, can be a distraction.

Oh My! I’m glad to say I’ve never seen a mohawked boy (or girl) serving! In fact, the priest who trains the altar boys has spoken to boys about hair styles, clothing, shoes, etc when they get out of line. My experience with girls has been different, but you are right that both can be distracting!

 

[asia53]

In fact, the priest who trains the altar boys has spoken to boys about hair styles, clothing, shoes, etc when they get out of line.

At my parish, too. We have a volunteer trainer, and he is strict about clothes, shoes, etc. We keep dress shoes in all sizes for the altar servers. Mostly, donations or bargains in good shape from Goodwill.

At the next Mass, I saw finger nailing chewing boy, tuck his hands under his thighs. So I know, someone talked to him.

 

[Phemie]

In my parish there is no dress code; the women who train the altar servers don’t want to hear about imposing anything on kids – or parents. They’re so happy they’ve got a few servers they couldn’t care less what they wear since their clothes are covered by their albs.

Of course we had 4 years of a Pastor wearing sweats to Mass and vesting at the last minute. We have priests who so rarely wear clericals that when they do it’s a shock – they never even wear them when hosting ecumenical events where all the non-Catholic clergy are wearing them. We’ve seen the raised eyebrows from the non-Catholics in the community. One guy’s been here 9 years (4 as our pastor and 5 commuting between native parishes) and in that time I’ve seen him in clericals twice. There are still people in the community of 7500 who don’t know he’s a priest.

That’s what’s keeping vocations down IMHO, not the fact that some of the altar servers are girls.

 

[quiet52]

Why would 20 or 70 boys would serve at one Mass – I just don’t get the point. That would be a huge distraction to me. There isn’t room in the sanctuary for them to sit, so they wouldn’t truly be “serving” any more than anyone else in the congregation fully participating in the Mass.

My parish is medium-sized, and we have one or two servers per Mass, four during the Easter Vigil. For the last several years, I have chatted with the teen male servers about their interest in the priesthood. Not one indicated an interest. Their service as altar servers end as they graduate from high school because they “want to get ready” for college. Maybe our priests haven’t talked with them from early on, I don’t know. All I know is that the correlation between this ministry and the priesthood is NOT being addressed in my parish or nearby parishes which I have attended. Because the practice of male and female altar serving has been ingrained for such a long time now, I doubt that a correlation between it and the priesthood can ever be successfully re-established, in my diocese anyway.

I think the causes for fewer priests stem from much deeper issues than the altar server gender issue. It begins with smaller-sized families due to the widespread use of contraception by a significant majority of Catholic couples. On a practical basis, parents want grandchildren, and when they have only one or two children rather than, say, four or seven children, they are less likely to promote the priesthood.

Also – on another practical basis – more and more school sports team require practice, and even have games, on Sunday mornings now. Soccer, baseball, basketball… One of our altar servers is unavailable at least one Sunday per month due to his Boy Scout campouts, and part of the year he is on various sports teams. It seems fewer parents are attending Mass as a couple or family, and there is a huge degree of “cafeteria Catholicism” in my diocese (which means missing Mass for non-serious reason isn’t even considered a mortal sin by many Catholics). The importance of Mass itself, not just male or female altar serving, has diminished within Catholic families. The Church needs to more strongly address these more essential issues, in my opinion, than male-only vs. both-gender altar serving.

 

[Veridical16]

Am pleased to see many of the responses lauding this move.

Though it’s not unexpected that the Article ends by quoting two liberal feminists who slander the Holy Mother Church.

“It is a shame on how the church continues to abuse the females,” said Bob Lutz of Phoenix, a Catholic with three grown daughters. “Church attendance is shrinking now, and this adds more fuel to the fire on how females are treated as second-class citizens.”

Carole Bartholomeuax of Phoenix, who attended St. Joan of Arc parish, said girls outnumbered boys as altar servers there.

“I believe Mary Magdalene set the example for women to be altar servers. I am so sorry to hear of this going backwards,” she said, adding that she still loves her church, “warts and all.”

Backwards eh?

Wisdom of the world on display. Why can’t they be good catholics and be okay with the Cathedral’s decision.

Second class citizens??? what is this nonsense??

Hopefully this “my will be done” Catholicism will be weeded out.

Church attendance is shrinking now, and this adds more fuel to the fire on how females are treated as second-class citizens

Good!!! Good that it is shrinking. We need to be pruned.

The report uses this , they don’t quote Catholics who understand why one would want to halt this androgynous look on girls and boys. Boys and girls develop differently.

A little reflection can go a long way, it has nothing to do with second-class citizenship or feminism, or progress. It has to do with uplifting the role of boys/gender and prompting a specialty boys can assist in with the priest…

I think the causes for fewer priests stem from much deeper issues than the altar server gender issue. It begins with smaller-sized families due to the widespread use of contraception by a significant majority of Catholic couples. On a practical basis, parents want grandchildren, and when they have only one or two children rather than, say, four or seven children, they are less likely to promote the priesthood.

I’ve been of the same opinion. We need to pray for more holy families too!

Also I believe , the latin mass, has the altar boy more active in learning the mass. So that could be a decline in altar boys being influenced to become priests.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

In my parish there is no dress code; the women who train the altar servers don’t want to hear about imposing anything on kids – or parents. They’re so happy they’ve got a few servers they couldn’t care less what they wear since their clothes are covered by their albs.

Of course we had 4 years of a Pastor wearing sweats to Mass and vesting at the last minute. We have priests who so rarely wear clericals that when they do it’s a shock – they never even wear them when hosting ecumenical events where all the non-Catholic clergy are wearing them. We’ve seen the raised eyebrows from the non-Catholics in the community. One guy’s been here 9 years (4 as our pastor and 5 commuting between native parishes) and in that time I’ve seen him in clericals twice. There are still people in the community of 7500 who don’t know he’s a priest.

That’s what’s keeping vocations down IMHO, not the fact that some of the altar servers are girls.

That is so sad. I know several order priests who do not always wear clericals, but they do not serve a parish. The lax sense these priests are giving about the importance of their ministry is not only the cause of lack of vacations, but the cause of the non-practice you see amoung your grown children. I will keep you, your family, and parish in my prayers.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I think the causes for fewer priests stem from much deeper issues than the altar server gender issue. It begins with smaller-sized families due to the widespread use of contraception by a significant majority of Catholic couples. On a practical basis, parents want grandchildren, and when they have only one or two children rather than, say, four or seven children, they are less likely to promote the priesthood.

This is absolutely a major cause! The idea of being a priest or religious grows in someone over a long time. If the parents discourage it (or don’t even mention it as an option), the priests don’t reach out to boys, their are no religious brothers or sisters to be seen in many parishes, the idea of committing your life like that becomes alien to people. Girls serving at the altar may be a convenient excuse, but it is hardly the main cause.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I dont know about you all but when we fail to see the Spiritual world, we become blind to the Truth.

To me it is very sad to see altar boys pushed to the other side of the Sanctuary while a girl sits side by side with the priest.

 

[PaulinVA]

I think the causes for fewer priests stem from much deeper issues than the altar server gender issue. It begins with smaller-sized families due to the widespread use of contraception by a significant majority of Catholic couples. On a practical basis, parents want grandchildren, and when they have only one or two children rather than, say, four or seven children, they are less likely to promote the priesthood.

Yes, but by having only one or two children, those couples are also reducing the need for priests in the next generation as well. So, they aren’t really hurting anything, are they?



No, I don’t believe that for a minute that is a good thing, but it shows how we must apply basic common sense to our arguments.

 

[Tsuwano]

My entire Diocese is Altar Girl free. We have a full seminary (we are lucky we were able to build one in my state. Before it was built, young men had to travel a long ways away for their first four years). I don’t mind women occasionally reading at Mass (went to a different local parish once for Mass and a woman read the first reading or second reading)) but if we want more priestly vocations,we need to keep altar servers to BOYS ONLY. I’m a girl and if we had been allowed to serve when I was 5th or 6th grade, I wouldn’t have been interested.

I don’t see why girls NEED to serve at Mass to “Feel Equal”?

I am glad at lease ONE parish in Arizona is going more traditional in regards to altar serving.

You make poor altar girls sound like a disease. All they want to do is serve their community and the Lord. What is so wrong with that? Just as you don’t see why girls NEED to serve at Mass to “Feel Equal,” I don’t see why the ministry of service at the altar must be EXCLUSIVE to boys for boys to feel “called to the priesthood.” If as a 5th or 6th grader you don’t feel called to serve at the altar as a server, then you shouldn’t serve. But if you do feel called to serve in this way, then there is no theological reason why you shouldn’t be given the opportunity.

 

[jediliz]

You make poor altar girls sound like a disease. All they want to do is serve their community and the Lord. What is so wrong with that? Just as you don’t see why girls NEED to serve at Mass to “Feel Equal,” I don’t see why the ministry of service at the altar must be EXCLUSIVE to boys for boys to feel “called to the priesthood.” If as a 5th or 6th grader you don’t feel called to serve at the altar as a server, then you shouldn’t serve. But if you do feel called to serve in this way, then there is no theological reason why you shouldn’t be given the opportunity.

As I said, my diocese’s seminary is full of young men studying to become priests. Will all of them go on to the final 4 years? Probably not. I love that my Bishop keeps tradition with NO ALTAR GIRLS. I hope his future successor continues this.

How many other dioceses have at least 40 young men studying to become priests? I mean the ones that allow girls to serve as altar servers as well?

If I was in the Phoenix diocese, I’d make the Cathedral my parish.

 

[Brendan]

Why would 20 or 70 boys would serve at one Mass – I just don’t get the point. That would be a huge distraction to me. There isn’t room in the sanctuary for them to sit, so they wouldn’t truly be “serving” any more than anyone else in the congregation fully participating in the Mass.

They all have different jobs. Where is it mandated that the same boy who hold the Sacramentary must also be the same who who hold the cruets.

The small ones process in with swing torches, and that goes all the way up to senior boys turning the pages of the Sacramentary for the priest. THAT one is really cool to watch. Those boys are kneeling behind the priest, but still know exactly when the priest is getting to the end of a page (from memory), they will stand up, turn the page for the priest, and return the kneeling position.

One other positive thing is that the really young boys learn to behave in Mass very early, they like to emulate the older boys, and that means sitting still with your hands folded.

I think the causes for fewer priests stem from much deeper issues than the altar server gender issue. It begins with smaller-sized families due to the widespread use of contraception by a significant majority of Catholic couples. On a practical basis, parents want grandchildren, and when they have only one or two children rather than, say, four or seven children, they are less likely to promote the priesthood.

One of the men that was recently ordained from our parish ( 3 years ago), is an only child. God calls men from small families too. A Catholic parent should be able to recognize that.

Also – on another practical basis – more and more school sports team require practice, and even have games, on Sunday mornings now. Soccer, baseball, basketball… One of our altar servers is unavailable at least one Sunday per month due to his Boy Scout campouts, and part of the year he is on various sports teams.

I’m one of the Assistant Scout Masters for our parish troop. Since I am the one who posted about all the boys in the parish being altar boys, all our Scouts are altar boys too

We make sure we are back from our campouts in time for 1:00pm Sunday Mass. The boys have to go to Mass on Sunday, Scout or not ( A Scout is Reverent after all ). So the scouts serve at the 1:00pm Mass

And so what if the boys have sports practice? That does not remove the obligation to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days. That is part of the beauty of our system. THere is no schedule for the altar boys, they simply serve at whatever Mass they attend. And it works well for the parents too, they don’t have to worry about getting Johnny to a different Mass than the family attends.

Do the boys who have sports practices in your parish just not attend Mass?? One would think that the sports practice is well known in advance. Even if the parish had a schedule for altar boys, that the boy should know about his practice schedule enough in advance that he could be placed on the roster for the Mass he was planning on attending that weekend…

BTW here is a typical Sunday Mass.

cid-d48dbdc01a7e8a7d.skydrive…Boys%20-sm.wmv

This is from a few years ago, sadly the priest there has since passed away, but the deacon with him (and that deacon’s twin brother) have also since been ordained to the priesthood.

 

[Brendan]

But if you do feel called to serve in this way, then there is no theological reason why you shouldn’t be given the opportunity.

This is part of the problem of why we have people promoting women priests. There is a misconception that if a person feels called to a ministery, they should be allowed to perform it.

A calling is only valid when in conforms to the precepts and authority of the Church. The person does not determine of they have a calling, the Church does.

So if a bishop or pastor prohibits girls from serving at the altar, then, by definition, girls in that diocese or parish do not have a calling to serve at the altar.

Their feelings on the matter are immaterial; God’s Authority and the Church’s authority are one in the same, the Holy Spirit , via Vatican I, said so in Pastor Aeternus.

Therefore, calling cannot be valid if it goes against what the Church has prohibited.

And the Church has prohibited girls serving at the altar where the bishop or pastor has prohibited them.

 

[asia53]

I don’t see why girls NEED to serve at Mass to “Feel Equal”?

You’ve missed the point. It isn’t about equality. It’s about being excluded because of gender.